Coming from Brawl... and I have questions!

[muscrester]

So, I finally got a switch recently and got SSBU immediately. I haven’t played a smash game since Brawl where I was a, yes, unfortunate, Jigglypuff main. Anyway, I picked the Puff up again, but my God the game has changed a lot. And I have a lot of grievances, given I’m stuck at a GSP of 5,400,000, which I think is nearing Elite Smash?
Anyway, have just made an account, hoping I can discuss the changes here and ways to adapt to them.

First, everyone can recover well now?!? Given the way I used to net KOs was by carrying people off stage and then giving them a kick, this is a problem. Before, the majority of characters would not make it back. Now, unless I can actually push someone to the blast line, the majority can make it back. I mean, some of the Up B’s are ridiculous. Everyone’s got a height boost: Fox’s travels basically from the bottom blast line right the way up to the stage edge on FD. What. Additionally, big fat characters that before had recoveries as their weakness, to compensate for big powerful hard-hitting moves, now don’t enter helpless states or have insane recoveries like King K. Rool. His travels so far, but also has hitboxes. In Brawl, recoveries that immense, like Pit’s, Rob’s, Sonic’s or Lucario’s, didn’t do damage with their bodies, making them interruptable. Now, his, and Piranha’s Plants are hard to interrupt. Additionally, given people’s recoveries in general are better, and side B’s don’t often put people in helpless, a lot more people can successfully get back to stage (or the edge, WHY IS EDGEHOGGING GONE!!!) with their Up B. Which means there’s a whole bunch of new Up B’s I need to figure out when it’s safe to interrupt.
I’m hoping this can be a thread in itself, if not already existing – HOW TO INTERCEPT EACH CHARACTER’S UP B (OR RECOVERY STYLES).

Second, why does air dodging put you in helpless again now?!? As Puff lives in the air, this is also a setback for me, given I can only air dodge once before needing to return to ground. Also, why on earth did they think each character needed to fall the same amount before being able to move after air dodging? This means Puff takes a stupid amount of time before being able to move again, crippling it more than any other character. Floatiness is already a negative in general, to stack this on it too is just cruel. It should be based on equal time, not distance.

Third, the rage mechanic. I understand this isn’t as impactful as in SSB4, but again Puff as one of the lightest characters benefits the least from this. Given it is KO’d at much lower percentages, there is much less time overall that it can actually use rage-boosted moves. It should be scaled to weight, to stop it yet again doubling down on the already negative trait of lightness.

Fourth, burying throws?!? Well, burying in general. It is an amazing effect, it basically gives you a guaranteed KO following it once someone is around 80%, by easily landing a smash move. In Brawl, outside of final smashes, it was just DK’s headbutt that did this. Making it unique, and also the move had a bit of wind-up, giving chances to escape. Now, many more moves have this effect, which come out quicker, but worst of all are the Down Throws. This just isn’t fair. Grabs are too easy to achieve to have this as an effect. The fact they can be done out of shield in a couple of frames, means that characters with them, in my opinion can really abuse this. Shield whenever someone comes in close, grab, bury, smash. Allowing a KO combo from relatively low percentages. Unless there is a better way of getting out of them that I don’t know??

Fifth, special gauges. Less of an annoyance, more of an ignorance on my part so far. But so many new characters, each with new gimmicks: limit meters, GO, redemption, KO punch etc… I guess my big annoyance is things like Hero’s critical hit chance. Pokemon have critical hits too, can they be given this option. Well, actually I’d rather Hero’s got taken. Less of these random match swinging factors, the better!

Sixth, and most annoying for me, but I only just remembered, but the number of moves that now have KO ability?!? It seems to easy now, some moves that were already very useful, for recovery, or additional effects have now got KO potential as well. Farore’s Wind, Screw Attack?!?, PK Freeze, PK Thunder?!?! Link’s spin attack, counters in general… Worst of all, Sonic’s ****ing homing attack?!?!?!!?!? How is this allowed to KO? A homing attack, that can KO. No. Not OK. And not surprisingly, I find it super abused online. But, struggling to find a way around it.
I’m hoping to also start some thread’s entitled “How to get around [X]”. For people to discuss strategies they have to get around people who abuse certain moves / combos. Because I can’t see many specific ones at the moment.

Seventh, a small one, but Sing. This has improved. But now that Hero’s Snooze can affect airborne foes in the way it does. Why can’t Sing? Let’s face it, Puffs still need all the Buffs they can get. But I do appreciate the Buff to Rollout too (a move I think is often overlooked. I think it is the way I net most KOs atm, thanks to mind games, and I guess people not knowing how to handles it).

Anyway, rant over. And I guess the take aways are:

I want to make a thread dedicated to listing strategies to interrupt each character’s Up B / recovery. Identifying when and where they are vulnerable during it.

I want threads set up around countering specific abused moves or combos online.

Unless either of these exist, but I could not find any. These forums seem good for learning how to use a character well, but not how to beat that character well – perhaps we can have beating this character guides, as well as character guides, in the characters subforum?

 

[JiggyNinja]

1) No, but it's probably still better than Brawl. K. Rool's recovery is slow and predictable, and the hitbox only covers the top of him. Hit him from the side. If he overshoots the ledge, free Rest!

2) Use it smarter. Touch the ground more. Puff's also super floaty and has one of the highest (I think it's second highest now? Can't remember who's first) air speeds in the game. You can drift away from a lot of stuff with good spacing.

3) Heavies are combo food. They need all the power (and rage) just to be able to compete with the more nimble speedsters. In exchange, Jigglypuff can gimp the **** out of them. Get off stage and don't let them come back.

4) Mash buttons to get out of bury faster. K. Rool's bury is mediocre, but Banjo's is ****.

5) There's a Tips and Tricks menu that will explain about various character's gimmicks. There's also a lot more gimmicks besides just meters, like the command inputs for Ryu/Ken/Terry (and special canceled normals), Incineroar's Revenge, Bayonetta's Afterburner Kick and Witch Twist, Pac-Man's every special move, to name a few.

I love all these unique gimmicks. They make the game so much more diverse and exciting.

6) Well something had to be done to compensate for ledge trumping, otherwise games would last forever. And what's wrong with Sonic's Homing Attack? It's not that powerful unless you let it charge up, so it's stupidly telegraphed. Shield it.

7) I think Sing would be too strong if it could affect airborn enemies. Snooze at least only travels in one direction and quickly moves away from Hero. Sing lingers, covering Jigglypuff in a 360 sphere of "back off, *****".

“How to get around [X]”. For people to discuss strategies they have to get around people who abuse certain moves / combos. Because I can’t see many specific ones at the moment.

Most moves are not that troublesome, and the answers are going to be some combination of "space outside its range" or "just shield it". Probably the only single attack that almost everyone universally hates is Zelda's Neutral B. And that's purely because of its startup intangibility making it a stupidly hard to punish option in online lag.

These forums seem good for learning how to use a character well, but not how to beat that character well.

You can already ask those questions in the character subforums, or find a character-centric discord server. Most players who main a character will happily teach others their weaknesses. Also, most guides about how to win with a character will usually have some good information for how to beat the character, because those guides should be telling you about the weaknesses you have to compensate for. It won't be as good as discussing a specific matchup, but that information will already exist. Also in listing out the character's strong points, the guide is telling you what you should look out for. Bowser, for example, has some very good out of shield options. That tells you to be careful attacking his shield, because he can easily retaliate.

 

[muscrester]

Thanks for your reply!

1- I'm sure it'll take time for me to get used to everyone's recovery patterns, but objectively they are so much better than Brawl's. Just look at Fox's! I struggle to get to the side or under K. Rool's helicopter thing as he falls so fast, and Jiggs doesn't. So I always end up getting hit if I follow him off stage. But this is why I felt a thread dedicated to highlighting weaknesses in people's recoveries would be useful. To spur on the learning process for me an others, not just Puff users.

2- I don't find the air dodge too much of a problem, except when I'm forced to use it offstage, and then have to drop a ridiculous amount. I'll adapt, but just felt it was badly programmed to have the characters equal distance fallen not time taken.

3- Rage. Eh, I'll adapt.

4- Is there any specific way of mashing that is superior? I can never get out before the forward smash hits.

5- Eh, I'll adapt too. And may grow to love them if I start broadening my mains

6- Shielding isnt an option in the air. And then refer up to my air dodge complaints. And is Puff is in the air 90% of the time, Sonic is just abusing the homing attack on me, and because it can be released at different times, I find it hard to read. Also, with screw attack and farore's wind, I just feel that recovery attacks that already deal damage, should not also have KO potential - just makes the moves ridiculously good. I also really struggle when I'm launched up high with getting back to stage when a PK thunder is about. It now moves so fast and can KO, and because of it's increased speed it can always get under me before I can touch down. Sometimes I can air dodge down past it, but again, that then leaves Puff so vulnerable as it takes ages before it can move again.

7- Yeah, I know I'm asking too much. But I just want to see Jiggs in a higher tier for once since Melee!

And I think to get past certain moves, I will just ask in the character subforums, if it is not already mentioned in the character guides. But the few ones I have read, seemed to be lacking in describing ways around the character and their moves.

 

[Predatoria]

Thanks for your reply!

asking too much. But I just want to see Jiggs in a higher tier for once since Melee!

Thankfully, this game seems to be vastly less imbalanced than some of its previous versions. Melee and Brawl (especially MK / Brawl) were really bad.

As a fellow lower tier main, I can say that I do think most of my losses are due to me playing worse than my opponent or being outplayed, rather than character matchups.

Some of them can be frustrating, but it is not nearly as bad as ganon vs mk in Brawl was. There aren't really any characters in this game that just cannot be beaten, nor are there any characters where you literally just cannot play with them because they're so horrible. I'm not sure any matchups are really worse than 30/70, and most low tier characters just have a whole lot of 40/60 matchups and relatively few 50/50 or 60/40's.

I ironically just ran into two jigglypuffs online. The fights were pretty intense and jigglypuff can be really scary, especially when you're x4 super-effective versus me.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

You will have a lot of catching up to do. First things first, go to the Help option by pressing ZR on the main menu, it details every single aspect and mechanic of the game.

the number of moves that now have KO ability?!? It seems to easy now, some moves that were already very useful, for recovery, or additional effects have now got KO potential as well. Farore’s Wind, Screw Attack?!?, PK Freeze, PK Thunder?!?! Link’s spin attack, counters in general… Worst of all, Sonic’s ****ing homing attack?!?!?!!?!? How is this allowed to KO? A homing attack, that can KO. No. Not OK. And not surprisingly, I find it super abused online. But, struggling to find a way around it.

Most characters' options have been improved over time. In Brawl, the majority of the veterans were pretty bad and lacking but in this game they stand a better chance. Some of the moves you mentioned used to very mediocre, so their improvements are a natural side effect of the series having matured. Homing Attack in Brawl was pretty useless and Sonic needed a KO option. Farore's Wind as well, although that is easily telegraphed (however, get caught in the elevator combo and you are dead). Grabs are also less effective than they were in Smash 4.

Jiggs got recently buffed in a patch and she is now showing promise, so she may end up at a better place on the meta.

You'll get used to the game in about a month.