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Cloud - Instant Liimit Break Cancel (ILBC)

smashPony

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Sup everybody, Pony here. Since I've started playing Sm4sh I've come across a lot of technology, and I'm not suprised to have found some with Cloud already. I call this the Instant Limit Break Cancel. It works similarly to a technique that can be utilized by Sheik (Needles) Diddy Kong (Peanut Popgun) R.O.B (Gyro) and Pac-Man (Fruit). What these techniques allow you to do is use Tilts, Jabs, and Downsmashes straight out of your run animation. These techniques all go by Instant Needle Cancel, Instant Popgun Cancel, Instant Gyro Cancel, and Instant Fruit Cancel. Cloud can perfrom this with his Limit Break in one of 2 ways. Ill list the inputs.

Method 1) [This method is faster, but limits a couple of the options you have available in Method 2, I would reccomend using this method] While running, input :GCD:+:GCB: to initiate the Limit Break Charge, then input any Tilt, [you have to use C - stick to Ftilt] a jab, or a downsmash.
Immediately after inputting your attack, followed by pressing shield, which will let you buffer the attack you chose out of Limit Break Charge.
(Ill link the thread I made of Diddy Kong's Instant Popgun Cancel here for a more specific guide on the inputs.)

http://smashboards.com/threads/diddy-kong-instant-popgun-cancel-ipc.422450/

However, keep in mind that while using this method, you CANNOT do Forward Smash because it will just initiate a roll. Same goes for FTilt unless you use tilt stick.

Method 2) [Allows you to Fsmash out of a run, as well as Ftilt if you use C stick for smash attacks. Although this method is slower, you have s couple more options available to you, I would reccomend using method 1 UNLESS you need to Fsmash] While running Hit :GCD:+:GCB: to initiate your Limit Break Charge, then simply hit :GCD:+:GCB: again to cancel your charge. (Limit Break Charge can be cancelled with these inputs both on the ground and in the air, allowing you to charge Limit Break off stage.) After hitting :GCD:+:GCB: a 2nd time to cancel your charge, do literally any attack or movement option you want to. Also as a side note, while charging Limit Break you can simply input another special to cancel Limit Break Charge and immediately do the special. here's a video showing a demonstration of the Instant Limit Break Cancel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c8cqi3hbaQ
 
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Zankoku

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I believe you can cancel the charge simply by inputting B, without needing any specific directional input.
 

Mister Eric

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Dang. Ninja'd!. And by a ninja too! I shouldn't have waited to put together the vid! But he showcased a lot more than I did anyways. Which is better.
Here's my video if anyone wants to take a look.
 
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mistercupter

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I love how fast this community is with things like this! Can't wait to try this out.
 

FUEGO!

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Running and hitting :GCD::GCB:,:GCB: seems to be the quickest way to accomplish this cancel, I'm finding it's almost instant and allows for an immediate move afterwards, so I suppose it's doing what the OP is also doing.
 

Gemba Board

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Running and hitting :GCD::GCB:,:GCB: seems to be the quickest way to accomplish this cancel, I'm finding it's almost instant and allows for an immediate move afterwards, so I suppose it's doing what the OP is also doing.
That's the exact input I'm using in this video. I'm still messing around with it but this input is the way to go I'm thinking. Especially since I'm not using the shield button, I can fsmash. Observe...
 

Wavebird

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Wait wait so if we can input like down b, b. Can we remove a need to shield altogether? Run, down b, b, attack.
True not to mention the amount of options you're left canceling with :GCB: rather than :GCA:

you can use your specials and also jump, the only reasonable alternative would be so you can bait and shield an attack or instant grab cancel and not to mention you don't need to run to put this tech to good use I actually find it more useful to play a turtle game with it

so it would be :GCD::GCB: into :GCB:/:GCRT:/:GCZ:

and then you would still have the roll options



one last thing unlike the other similar tech this one doesn't require you to hold :GCB: you can just tilt you directional before the limit animation and have and easier time canceling into tilts

just press down b then quickly tilt in any direction if done correctly you won't roll

then swipe b and a/ or hold b and a for a smash attack

Scrap that even without it it's pretty easy to use tilts, this honestly is starting to feel like pretty common Cloud tech considering how easy it is to get a grasp of canceling his limit special

I guess I was thinking ahead of myself thinking this was some major discovery when in reality I feel this will be some of clouds bread and butter like it probably was intended
 
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CanadianMegaMan

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So I've been labbing around for a while and I'm not sure, but it seems like it's more efficient to just dash around because it seems like clouds initial dash animation has iasa frames at the end so you can basically do this without the cancel by dash dancing up to your opponent and then using your move of choice at the correct time.
 

KeithTheGeek

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So I've been labbing around for a while and I'm not sure, but it seems like it's more efficient to just dash around because it seems like clouds initial dash animation has iasa frames at the end so you can basically do this without the cancel by dash dancing up to your opponent and then using your move of choice at the correct time.
Cloud seems to have a good foxtrot but the important thing about this is that you can do it out of dash at any point in time. You can use it to mix up your timings, among other things, and it means you can more safely use your full dash without having to run up and shield like 90% of the cast.

ILBC into his tilts is gonna be sooo fun.
 

Horseketchup

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Just wanted to add that according to this Cloud frame data spreadsheet, Limit Break charge has an IASA on frame 6:

(click on cloud tab at the top)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...llpSkggN6MfpLfZIiBdGv6xOFk/htmlview?sle=true#

So I'm pretty sure this means that this ILBC tech only takes a minimum of 5 frames, which would mean extremely fast transitions into grounded attacks. Lots of potential here, especially since it's fairly easy to pull off too.
 

Chiroz

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So can anyone confirm what's the actual frame data on the quickest cancel? I figured this tech out yesterday the very first game I tried it and I am trying to make calculations in my head about how to use this but I'd like to know the full-on details (exact frame data and such).


Since it says Limit Charge is 6 frames, I would expect the cancel to be frame 1 so that's 7 frames of lag? Is there anyone who can confirm this?
 

IsaacMole

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Cloud seems to have a good foxtrot but the important thing about this is that you can do it out of dash at any point in time. You can use it to mix up your timings, among other things, and it means you can more safely use your full dash without having to run up and shield like 90% of the cast.

ILBC into his tilts is gonna be sooo fun.
Yep. But it's important to use both, because when your LB is charged you obviously can't use ILBC.

His foxtrot is incredible. NinjaLink showed a couple of cool things in his most recent video, but I'll timestamp directly to where he shows off dashing into a dtilt: https://youtu.be/j6gyFbEUUVA?t=1958
 

CanadianMegaMan

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I didn't just mean his fox trot is good. From running, if you release the control stick, you can input whatever attack you want as soon as his foot touches the ground, which is almost immediately.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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I've looked into the exact mechanics behind all the other Instant 'X' Cancel AT's previously, and Cloud's version works slightly differently to some character's versions. I won't bother you with the details of the other characters, which can be found in the smash dictionary in any case, but this is how Cloud's version works:

Input down-special, input the attack on frame 7 or later (any earlier and it will not work), then on any frame within the next 10 frames following the attack input, input shield. [Edit: to clarify, if you input the attack on frame 6 or earlier, then the following shield input will activate your shield, not the attack.]

The shield input will activate the attack on the same frame. This means that the quickest this is able to work is to have e.g. Jab start on frame 8 and hit on frame 11.


And no, this is different from using the special button to cancel LB. The instant shield-using version is definitely better. Let me make this abundantly clear; the special button cannot be used to do the Instant LB Cancel AT. The way the Instant 'X' Cancel AT works is it specifically and completely cuts out the lag that normally follows the input used to cancel the move. The shield button will activate the previously inputted attack on the same frame; the special button does none of this. In other words, the special button is unable to cut out the lag following the cancel. The best you can do with the special button is use it to cancel LB on frame 6 at the earliest (not 7, and yes I'm sure about the 7 earlier), and then you can buffer your attack during the frames following the cancel, but you still then have 7 frames to wait, meaning that the earliest you'll be able to get e.g. a Jab out using this method is to have Jab start on frame 13 and hit on frame 16. Cancelling LB with the special button is just a standard cancel, nothing special, completely different mechanics, separate tech altogether.

Oh and btw, for comparison, if instead you wanted to run, skid, then do Jab, the earliest that Jab would actually hit someone (following the returning of the joystick to neutral activating the skid) is frame 27.
 
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smashPony

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I've looked into the exact mechanics behind all the other Instant 'X' Cancel AT's previously, and Cloud's version works slightly differently to some character's versions. I won't bother you with the details of the other characters, which can be found in the smash dictionary in any case, but this is how Cloud's version works:

Input down-special, input the attack on frame 7 or later (any earlier and it will not work), then on any frame within the next 10 frames following the attack input, input shield. [Edit: to clarify, if you input the attack on frame 6 or earlier, then the following shield input will activate your shield, not the attack.]

The shield input will activate the attack on the same frame. This means that the quickest this is able to work is to have e.g. Jab start on frame 8 and hit on frame 11.


And no, this is different from using the special button to cancel LB. The instant shield-using version is definitely better. Let me make this abundantly clear; the special button cannot be used to do the Instant LB Cancel AT. The way the Instant 'X' Cancel AT works is it specifically and completely cuts out the lag that normally follows the input used to cancel the move. The shield button will activate the previously inputted attack on the same frame; the special button does none of this. In other words, the special button is unable to cut out the lag following the cancel. The best you can do with the special button is use it to cancel LB on frame 6 at the earliest (not 7, and yes I'm sure about the 7 earlier), and then you can buffer your attack during the frames following the cancel, but you still then have 7 frames to wait, meaning that the earliest you'll be able to get e.g. a Jab out using this method is to have Jab start on frame 13 and hit on frame 16. Cancelling LB with the special button is just a standard cancel, nothing special, completely different mechanics, separate tech altogether.

Oh and btw, for comparison, if instead you wanted to run, skid, then do Jab, the earliest that Jab would actually hit someone (following the returning of the joystick to neutral activating the skid) is frame 27.
Wow thanks for getting us the specifics on this. We all surely owe you one. Its good to know. The shield cancelling method should definitely be used for jab, Dtilt, Dsmash, Uptilt (which are probably 4 of clouds best grounded attacks in my opinion). It seems that for the instances where you might need an Ftilt or Fsmash though, the special button cancelling method should still be used, as you won't get a roll. Thanks again for looking into this :D
 

smashPony

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Also guys, I revised the OP slightly, there was a small bit of misinformation, although I'm sure a lot of you noticed. Sorry about that.
 
D

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I need to practice with this a bit more, but having this technique opens so many options for Cloud and allows him to play some mind games. This is definitely one very useful technique for Cloud.
 

Chiroz

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I've looked into the exact mechanics behind all the other Instant 'X' Cancel AT's previously, and Cloud's version works slightly differently to some character's versions. I won't bother you with the details of the other characters, which can be found in the smash dictionary in any case, but this is how Cloud's version works:

Input down-special, input the attack on frame 7 or later (any earlier and it will not work), then on any frame within the next 10 frames following the attack input, input shield. [Edit: to clarify, if you input the attack on frame 6 or earlier, then the following shield input will activate your shield, not the attack.]

The shield input will activate the attack on the same frame. This means that the quickest this is able to work is to have e.g. Jab start on frame 8 and hit on frame 11.


And no, this is different from using the special button to cancel LB. The instant shield-using version is definitely better. Let me make this abundantly clear; the special button cannot be used to do the Instant LB Cancel AT. The way the Instant 'X' Cancel AT works is it specifically and completely cuts out the lag that normally follows the input used to cancel the move. The shield button will activate the previously inputted attack on the same frame; the special button does none of this. In other words, the special button is unable to cut out the lag following the cancel. The best you can do with the special button is use it to cancel LB on frame 6 at the earliest (not 7, and yes I'm sure about the 7 earlier), and then you can buffer your attack during the frames following the cancel, but you still then have 7 frames to wait, meaning that the earliest you'll be able to get e.g. a Jab out using this method is to have Jab start on frame 13 and hit on frame 16. Cancelling LB with the special button is just a standard cancel, nothing special, completely different mechanics, separate tech altogether.

Oh and btw, for comparison, if instead you wanted to run, skid, then do Jab, the earliest that Jab would actually hit someone (following the returning of the joystick to neutral activating the skid) is frame 27.

Are you sure about the jab being frame 16? I am pretty sure that can't be right. It definitely feels muuuch faster. I don't think there are 7 frames to drop LB, it definitely feels instant to me.

Cloud doesn't even raise his sword and the glow doesn't even come out.



I can say I am pretty certain the attacks don't go through any drop animation. I am doing attacks out of shield (which has a 7 frame drop) and out of LBCancel and there's a huge difference in speed. Am I imagining things?

I am not instantly cancelling the shield either, I know there are mandatory frames you have to stay on shield. I am waiting a while then dropping it.




Also, after having tried for a bit I can do the the same inputs for the shield on the method 2. I can do Down-B, then a tilt and then input Special and I will also get the tilt, just like with method 1, although the timing seems more strict.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Are you sure about the jab being frame 16? I am pretty sure that can't be right. It definitely feels muuuch faster. I don't think there are 7 frames to drop LB, it definitely feels instant to me.

Cloud doesn't even raise his sword and the glow doesn't even come out.



I can say I am pretty certain the attacks don't go through any drop animation. I am doing attacks out of shield (which has a 7 frame drop) and out of LBCancel and there's a huge difference in speed. Am I imagining things?

I am not instantly cancelling the shield either, I know there are mandatory frames you have to stay on shield. I am waiting a while then dropping it.




Also, after having tried for a bit I can do the the same inputs for the shield on the method 2. I can do Down-B, then a tilt and then input Special and I will also get the tilt, just like with method 1, although the timing seems more strict.
Hitting special to cancel the charge on frame 6 makes it so the glow doesn't come out.
In any case you seem sure, so I'll look into this again; it's possible that the window was just really specific or something. I'll be unnecessarily thorough this time around I guess.

[Turning 'A+B=smash' off just in case.]

Jab on frame 1 (i.e. the same frame as the down-special), Special on frame 1. Impossible (as special is already pressed; doesn't cancel).
Jab on frame 1, Special on frame 2. Impossible (it would be the equivalent of merely holding special, not having two separate special inputs; doesn't cancel).
Jab on frame 1, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 1, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 1, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 1, Special on frame 6. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 1, Special on frame 7. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 1, Special on frame 8. Cancels but has no attack.

Jab on frame 2, Special on frame 1. Impossible.
Jab on frame 2, Special on frame 2. Impossible.
Jab on frame 2, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 2, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 2, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 2, Special on frame 6. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 2, Special on frame 7. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 2, Special on frame 8. Cancels but has no attack.

Jab on frame 3, Special on frame 1. Impossible.
Jab on frame 3, Special on frame 2. Impossible.
Jab on frame 3, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 3, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 3, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 3, Special on frame 6. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 3, Special on frame 7. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 3, Special on frame 8. Cancels but has no attack.

Jab on frame 4, Special on frame 1. Impossible.
Jab on frame 4, Special on frame 2. Impossible.
Jab on frame 4, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 4, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 4, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 4, Special on frame 6. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 4, Special on frame 7. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 4, Special on frame 8. Cancels but has no attack.

Jab on frame 5, Special on frame 1. Impossible.
Jab on frame 5, Special on frame 2. Impossible.
Jab on frame 5, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 5, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 5, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 5, Special on frame 6. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 5, Special on frame 7. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 5, Special on frame 8. Cancels but has no attack.

Jab on frame 6, Special on frame 1. Impossible.
Jab on frame 6, Special on frame 2. Impossible.
Jab on frame 6, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 6, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 6, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 6, Special on frame 6. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 6, Special on frame 7. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 6, Special on frame 8. Cancels but has no attack.

Jab on frame 7, Special on frame 1. Impossible.
Jab on frame 7, Special on frame 2. Impossible.
Jab on frame 7, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 7, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 7, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 7, Special on frame 6. Cancels and attacks but only starts to Jab on frame 13 and hits on frame 16.
Jab on frame 7, Special on frame 7. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 7, Special on frame 8. Cancels but has no attack.

Jab on frame 8, Special on frame 1. Impossible.
Jab on frame 8, Special on frame 2. Impossible.
Jab on frame 8, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 8, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 8, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 8, Special on frame 6. Cancels and attacks but only starts to Jab on frame 13 and hits on frame 16.
Jab on frame 8, Special on frame 7. Cancels and attacks but only starts to Jab on frame 14 and hits on frame 17.
Jab on frame 8, Special on frame 8. Cancels but has no attack.

Jab on frame 9, Special on frame 1. Impossible.
Jab on frame 9, Special on frame 2. Impossible.
Jab on frame 9, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 9, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 9, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 9, Special on frame 6. Cancels and attacks but only starts to Jab on frame 13 and hits on frame 16.
Jab on frame 9, Special on frame 7. Cancels and attacks but only starts to Jab on frame 14 and hits on frame 17.
Jab on frame 9, Special on frame 8. Cancels and attacks but only starts to Jab on frame 15 and hits on frame 18.


So that confirms my initial findings. Maybe you just overestimate how long a frame is, unless you're doing something else entirely. Feel free to test things yourself http://smashboards.com/threads/foxys-guide-to-testing-and-labbing.417822/
 

Chiroz

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Hitting special to cancel the charge on frame 6 makes it so the glow doesn't come out.
In any case you seem sure, so I'll look into this again; it's possible that the window was just really specific or something. I'll be unnecessarily thorough this time around I guess.

[Turning 'A+B=smash' off just in case.]

Jab on frame 1 (i.e. the same frame as the down-special), Special on frame 1. Impossible (as special is already pressed; doesn't cancel).
Jab on frame 1, Special on frame 2. Impossible (it would be the equivalent of merely holding special, not having two separate special inputs; doesn't cancel).
Jab on frame 1, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 1, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 1, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 1, Special on frame 6. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 1, Special on frame 7. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 1, Special on frame 8. Cancels but has no attack.

Jab on frame 2, Special on frame 1. Impossible.
Jab on frame 2, Special on frame 2. Impossible.
Jab on frame 2, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 2, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 2, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 2, Special on frame 6. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 2, Special on frame 7. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 2, Special on frame 8. Cancels but has no attack.

Jab on frame 3, Special on frame 1. Impossible.
Jab on frame 3, Special on frame 2. Impossible.
Jab on frame 3, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 3, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 3, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 3, Special on frame 6. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 3, Special on frame 7. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 3, Special on frame 8. Cancels but has no attack.

Jab on frame 4, Special on frame 1. Impossible.
Jab on frame 4, Special on frame 2. Impossible.
Jab on frame 4, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 4, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 4, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 4, Special on frame 6. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 4, Special on frame 7. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 4, Special on frame 8. Cancels but has no attack.

Jab on frame 5, Special on frame 1. Impossible.
Jab on frame 5, Special on frame 2. Impossible.
Jab on frame 5, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 5, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 5, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 5, Special on frame 6. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 5, Special on frame 7. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 5, Special on frame 8. Cancels but has no attack.

Jab on frame 6, Special on frame 1. Impossible.
Jab on frame 6, Special on frame 2. Impossible.
Jab on frame 6, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 6, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 6, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 6, Special on frame 6. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 6, Special on frame 7. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 6, Special on frame 8. Cancels but has no attack.

Jab on frame 7, Special on frame 1. Impossible.
Jab on frame 7, Special on frame 2. Impossible.
Jab on frame 7, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 7, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 7, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 7, Special on frame 6. Cancels and attacks but only starts to Jab on frame 13 and hits on frame 16.
Jab on frame 7, Special on frame 7. Cancels but has no attack.
Jab on frame 7, Special on frame 8. Cancels but has no attack.

Jab on frame 8, Special on frame 1. Impossible.
Jab on frame 8, Special on frame 2. Impossible.
Jab on frame 8, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 8, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 8, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 8, Special on frame 6. Cancels and attacks but only starts to Jab on frame 13 and hits on frame 16.
Jab on frame 8, Special on frame 7. Cancels and attacks but only starts to Jab on frame 14 and hits on frame 17.
Jab on frame 8, Special on frame 8. Cancels but has no attack.

Jab on frame 9, Special on frame 1. Impossible.
Jab on frame 9, Special on frame 2. Impossible.
Jab on frame 9, Special on frame 3. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 9, Special on frame 4. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 9, Special on frame 5. Doesn't cancel.
Jab on frame 9, Special on frame 6. Cancels and attacks but only starts to Jab on frame 13 and hits on frame 16.
Jab on frame 9, Special on frame 7. Cancels and attacks but only starts to Jab on frame 14 and hits on frame 17.
Jab on frame 9, Special on frame 8. Cancels and attacks but only starts to Jab on frame 15 and hits on frame 18.


So that confirms my initial findings. Maybe you just overestimate how long a frame is, unless you're doing something else entirely. Feel free to test things yourself http://smashboards.com/threads/foxys-guide-to-testing-and-labbing.417822/

I used your guide and I can see exactly what you're saying, but I also see Cloud put down his sword (the animation you were talking about), when I do it on regular speed I cannot for the life of me see this animation and I cannot reproduce the way I use B to cancel the move at 1/4th speed.

I see that you were right, but for my own sanity I'll try recording a video at 60 fps or something because I truly cannot see/feel the diference. I know how much 6/7 frames are, I even played ICs in Brawl and was very good at desynching mid combo and continuing with a desynch combo, so I would have to know sort of the feeling of a 6/7 frame lag.



Sorry if I was a bother, I didn't mean to be, I'll try to record the video just for my own sake, lol.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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I used your guide and I can see exactly what you're saying, but I also see Cloud put down his sword (the animation you were talking about), when I do it on regular speed I cannot for the life of me see this animation and I cannot reproduce the way I use B to cancel the move at 1/4th speed.

I see that you were right, but for my own sanity I'll try recording a video at 60 fps or something because I truly cannot see/feel the diference. I know how much 6/7 frames are, I even played ICs in Brawl and was very good at desynching mid combo and continuing with a desynch combo, so I would have to know sort of the feeling of a 6/7 frame lag.



Sorry if I was a bother, I didn't mean to be, I'll try to record the video just for my own sake, lol.
dw it wasn't a bother. As I said, it's also just possible that you're doing something slightly different, something that I'm unable to figure out when slowed down, so by all means try to get that recording because I'd be very interested to know if it is in fact possible, at which point I'll help you figure out what the exact inputs are.
 

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dw it wasn't a bother. As I said, it's also just possible that you're doing something slightly different, something that I'm unable to figure out when slowed down, so by all means try to get that recording because I'd be very interested to know if it is in fact possible, at which point I'll help you figure out what the exact inputs are.
After watching really closely a slowed down video (I don't know how to do frame by frame but I was able to get a software to slow it down for me) I was able to see the "drop sword animation".

I noticed though that I get grabs sometimes when doing the Shield cancel. In fact I get grabs more than I get shields. I know it's just me messing the timing up but I am just making notice of it.


Cancelling the charge with a Grab input or a Smash input (by pressing A+B) seems to be instant right? When testing as you specify on your thread I cannot see the "sword drop" animation when I do smashes in this way.

Is this doable frame 6 or is it 7? Could you help me out I don't know how to tell because you said it skips 2 frames every L input.


It's actually very easy to do Down-B -> A+B. And if you want a D-Smash you can just stay holding down. If it's an U-Smash you can just hold up (No need for a direction for F-Smash).


If this is in fact instant then Cloud can perform every single attack out of LB instantly (except maybe Specials). You can also jump and platform drop by using the ILBC with the shield button.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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This may be heading into territory that is best moved to PM's. But for now,

After watching really closely a slowed down video (I don't know how to do frame by frame but I was able to get a software to slow it down for me) I was able to see the "drop sword animation".
Ah, well there you go. That would be the 7 frames I was talking about that must be waited through when doing a normal i.e. not instant cancel.

I noticed though that I get grabs sometimes when doing the Shield cancel. In fact I get grabs more than I get shields. I know it's just me messing the timing up but I am just making notice of it.
The reason why you're getting more grabs than jabs is probably because you're not pressing attack before you press shield. Keep them as separate inputs, and then you'll either get (e.g.) Jab or shield, and if you get shield, just do the inputs slightly later.

Cancelling the charge with a Grab input or a Smash input (by pressing A+B) seems to be instant right? When testing as you specify on your thread I cannot see the "sword drop" animation when I do smashes in this way.
Yeah so you know how earlier I said that you have to hit Jab on frame 7 then shield any frame after within 10 frames? Well this still holds true and is the fastest way to get a Jab out. But if you want to do a Grab, you can actually input it on frame 6 (just press Grab). So that's an interesting little quirk. It means you can start your Grab 2 frames earlier than you can start a Jab. Cloud's Grab is frame 7 and his Jab is frame 4 so Grab will come out 1 frame later than Jab if both are done frame perfectly.

As for A+B=smash stuff, hitting A+B on the same frame will not cancel LB. Hitting and holding A then hitting B one frame later will cancel it when you hit B but will not result in an attack. So what you must be doing is hitting and holding B (on frame 6 at the earliest) then hitting A like one frame later (does not need to be one frame later though as I'll explain in a moment), which results in a normal LB cancel and a buffered F-smash (which starts its animation 7 frames later on frame 13, meaning you have a 7 frame window to hit A so long as you continued to hold B).
This is probably the best way to do F-smashes because if you try to do F-smashes with the shield cancel method (similar to how I recommend doing Jabs), the input on frame 7 to do F-smash will just make you roll. But U-smash and D-smash will come out quicker if you do the shield cancel 'instant' method (input D-smash or U-smash on frame 7 then hit shield on any frame, preferably the next frame, within 10 frames to activate it).

Is this doable frame 6 or is it 7? Could you help me out I don't know how to tell because you said it skips 2 frames every L input.
The Grab is frame 6, the cancel for the B+A=smash is frame 6 also (must be 'B' by itself though), but only Grab begins on frame 6 while F-smash begins on frame 13.

The guide I linked also lets you do 1 frame skips, and the advanced section toward the end talks about how it is perfectly possible to do 2 separate inputs on each frame of the two frame skip, something that I am well practiced at doing and can do consistently.
But then this is the sort of thing that should be discussed in PM's or in that thread, not here.
 
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8383d3 90 90 10 hundred

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Oh and btw, for comparison, if instead you wanted to run, skid, then do Jab, the earliest that Jab would actually hit someone (following the returning of the joystick to neutral activating the skid) is frame 27.
hey man. thanks for this. i was wondering if FOXTROT jab is any faster than run-skid-jab ?? or is it just the same?

and if thats the case, do we have this speed hierarchy concrete?:

run limit charge shield cancel
run limit charge normal cancel
run skid

??
 

8383d3 90 90 10 hundred

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The best you can do with the special button is use it to cancel LB on frame 6 at the earliest (not 7, and yes I'm sure about the 7 earlier), and then you can buffer your attack during the frames following the cancel, but you still then have 7 frames to wait, meaning that the earliest you'll be able to get e.g. a Jab out using this method is to have Jab start on frame 13 and hit on frame 16.
.
dashing into shield and immediately dropping shield might be faster than this. shield drop is only 7 frames. but i think there may be startup lag when dashing into shield? what do you think?
 
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