Charizard's Out of Shield options

[Steeler]

Hello. I will be showing you Charizard's out of shield options.

First, a brief explanation of how shielding works, with some help from C charizardbro

When you let go of the shield button without shielding a move, you will normally incur shield drop lag, which is 7 frames for every character.

If you shield and are hit by something on frame 1-3 after shielding, you will perfect shield. When you perfect shield, you can drop shield into a standard attack without any delay.

You only incur exactly seven shield lock frames when you shield nothing. You don't necessarily get seven of them every time you let go of shield because shield lock overlaps with shield stun post patch. When you are hit by a move that deals more frames of shield stun than you have frames of shield lock left to fulfill, it is no quicker to use an OoS option than it is to drop shield and use something else. This is why jabs are OP.

If you perform an out of shield option (roll, spotdodge, jump, grab), you will not incur shield drop lag even if you did not shield a move. You will still have to wait for the shield stun from an attack striking you. You may cancel jump before you are airborne into up smashes and up specials (both relevant for Charizard). Charizard's jumpsquat animation is 7 frames (second longest of all characters), which means you can up smash or up b up to 7 frames after inputting jump. Jumpsquat is simply the animation each character does after pressing jump, before they are actually airborne.

Now for a list of Charizard's out of shield options. Here are some caveats, as enumerated by C charizardbro

Here's a situation:
Say you shield a move that deals four frames of shield stun after having your shield up for four frames. You still have 3 shield lock frames left.
It's actually faster to jab than it is to shield grab because grab is active after eight frames of startup while jab is active after 3 frames of shield lock and 4 frames of startup for a total of 7 frames.

There are nuances to shield mechanics post patch that really shake around the OoS list you have there quite a bit depending on the situation. This is why categorizing/listing frames for OoS options post patch is a bit of a headache.

Also, you can use JC Rock Smash without waiting for shield lock frames to go away because you input a jump first. Rock smash cancels the jumpsquat animation (hence the name). That should take the number of frames down quite a bit. 1 frame of jumpsquat (minimum), no shield lock outside of the normal 3 frames to powershield, and the normal startup frames added together should total well under 30.

Similar stuff for Usmash and Fly. If you interrupt the jump on the earliest possible frame (impractical but ok), you add one frame to their active hitbox numbers. So Usmash is 7/8 and Fly is 10 (SA on 5). That being said, interrupting jumpsquat on the latest possible frame (also impractical but ok) makes those punishes a lot harder to actually land (13/14 for Usmash and 16 + SA on 11 for Fly) at which point you're approaching the landing lag values of a lot of the poorly spaced stuff you would punish that way anyway.

Can be performed directly out of shield, jump canceling where necessary (can cancel jumpsquat lag). This list will assume you have canceled your jump with the attack IMMEDIATELY (1 frame after jumping). Add up to 7 frames of lag depending on your attack timing.
Can be performed by jumping out of shield, incurs jumpsquat lag (7 frames)
Can be performed by dropping shield, incurs shield drop lag (7 frames) if you did not shield a move. If you have shielded a move, that lag can be as low as 0 frames (perfect shield). This is all dependent on your shield timing, but know that the actual speed of the move out of shield is the move's startup plus 0 to 7 frames. Move's startup is in parentheses.

Spot Dodge - 3 frames (invincibility)
Roll - 4 frames (invincibility)
Up Smash - 7 frames (8 for grounded opponents)
Grab - 8 frames
Fly - 10 frames - super armor on frame 5
Jab - 11 (4) frames
Fair - 15 frames (likely 2-3 frames later unless they are in front and above you)
Dtilt - 16 (9) frames
Utilt - 16 (9) frames
Nair - 16 frames (more likely much later unless they are above and behind you)
Dash Atk - 17 (10) frames
Ftilt - 18 (11) frames
Uair - 19 frames
Dsmash - 21 (14) frames
Bair - 21 frames
Dair - 25 frames
Rock Smash - 25 frames - super armor on frame 6
Flamethrower - 27 (20) frames
Fsmash - 29 (22) frames
Flare Blitz - 30 (23) frames

Some quick notes:

Perfect shield into jab (4 frames) can punish nearly any move in the game, provided the opponent is in jab range. This is going to be your bread and butter in most matchups.

Dsmash (14 frames on perfect shield) is the most optimal punish against moves that aren't exceptionally safe, due to great hitbox size and strong damage/knockback.

The most optimal punish against really unsafe stuff depends on the current situation. At very low percents, a grab + pummel into a throw combo is equal to or greater than a smash attack in damage. Nair into jab combo also nets similar damage. At mid to high percents, fsmash is the most powerful option in terms of knockback.

Up smash and Fly are both quite fast for how powerful they are, their only real issue is that they are fairly easy to space away from for most characters: retreating aerials, spaced tilts, etc.

Charizard's aerials are pretty terrible out of shield, due to the long jumpsquat animation (no better than shield drop), poor startup times (frame 8 fair which is more realistically frame 10 out of shield and frame 9 nair which is more realistically frame 15 or so against most grounded opponents), and poor hitbox placement (Charizard has no quick option that covers under or behind him, compare to nairs like Villager or Sheik).

 

[charizardbro]

I gotchu man.

I've always seen "shield drop lag" referred to as "shield lock frames" so that it doesn't sound like a separate tech called shield dropping.

A little bit about shield mechanics...

You only incur exactly seven shield lock frames when you shield nothing. You don't necessarily get seven of them every time you let go of shield because shield lock overlaps with shield stun post patch. When you are hit by a move that deals more frames of shield stun than you have frames of shield lock left to fulfill, it is no quicker to use an OoS option than it is to drop shield and use something else. This is why jabs are OP.

Here's a situation:
Say you shield a move that deals four frames of shield stun after having your shield up for four frames. You still have 3 shield lock frames left.
It's actually faster to jab than it is to shield grab because grab is active after eight frames of startup while jab is active after 3 frames of shield lock and 4 frames of startup for a total of 7 frames.

There are nuances to shield mechanics post patch that really shake around the OoS list you have there quite a bit depending on the situation. This is why categorizing/listing frames for OoS options post patch is a bit of a headache.

Also, you can use JC Rock Smash without waiting for shield lock frames to go away because you input a jump first. Rock smash cancels the jumpsquat animation (hence the name). That should take the number of frames down quite a bit. 1 frame of jumpsquat (minimum), no shield lock outside of the normal 3 frames to powershield, and the normal startup frames added together should total well under 30.

Similar stuff for Usmash and Fly. If you interrupt the jump on the earliest possible frame (impractical but ok), you add one frame to their active hitbox numbers. So Usmash is 7/8 and Fly is 10 (SA on 5). That being said, interrupting jumpsquat on the latest possible frame (also impractical but ok) makes those punishes a lot harder to actually land (13/14 for Usmash and 16 + SA on 11 for Fly) at which point you're approaching the landing lag values of a lot of the poorly spaced stuff you would punish that way anyway.

 

[Steeler]

Are you sure Rock Smash cancels jumpsquat? I remember looking at it in 1/4 speed and figuring he still did the whole animation. Will test when I get home, as well as edit your knowledge into the OP.

 

[charizardbro]

Certain. You're welcome to watch MSC's video. It's very detailed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS6BRi8t8Ec

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ok I might be an older smasher but...I'm not as certain what jump squat is.

Is that the animation is takes to get airborn?

But yeah like other smash titltes perfect shielding will yield them to be punished with a lot more than just grab, fly usmash for the fastest stuff. C charizardbro also mentioned one of the key details and it is why our jab is actually really good OoS because the 7 frame rule doesn't quite work like Steeler is implying in the OP.

Still good list but since shield mechanics changed it is harder, but yet easier in some situations, to punish OoS with some stuff.

 

[arbustopachon]

yep the jump squat is the animation it takes to get airborn.
Such a pity Zard's is 7 frames lonng, as op said earlier it makes aerials oos shield kinda bad for zard.

 

[charizardbro]

yep the jump squat is the animation it takes to get airborn.
Such a pity Zard's is 7 frames lonng, as op said earlier it makes aerials oos shield kinda bad for zard.

Yea... They're honestly unusable as OoS options in my experience.

 

[Steeler]

Edited the OP, let me know if you guys have anything else to contribute. Thanks doods.

 

[arbustopachon]

You can also shad oos , it has like 10 frames of startup but less endlag than a roll provided you autocancell it with an aerial before landing.
Shad has roughly 8 frames of endlag if we count the soft landing lag and a roll has 14 frames of endlag.

 

[Virum]

It's a real shame NAir's hitbox doesn't intuitively match its animation. It would actually work as a decent out of shield option vs cross-ups (because Zard currently has nothing vs cross-ups) if it came out something like frame 5 (approximately when the tail flame expands). It's also a shame that USmash and Fly are still unreliable in certain positions (USmash still consistently whiffs the 2nd hit vs foes behind Zard and at max range above him for instance). Coupled of course with his poor traction his out of shield game ends up feeling lacking beyond jab honestly.

 

[charizardbro]

Edited the OP, let me know if you guys have anything else to contribute. Thanks doods.

Np man.

It's a real shame NAir's hitbox doesn't intuitively match its animation. It would actually work as a decent out of shield option vs cross-ups (because Zard currently has nothing vs cross-ups) if it came out something like frame 5 (approximately when the tail flame expands). It's also a shame that USmash and Fly are still unreliable in certain positions (USmash still consistently whiffs the 2nd hit vs foes behind Zard and at max range above him for instance). Coupled of course with his poor traction his out of shield game ends up feeling lacking beyond jab honestly.

Agreed about nair but I don't think Zard's OoS game is underwhelming by any stretch. Easily top 5 OoS options in the game imo. Nothing crazy good but tons of decent stuff all found in one character.

Also a lot of characters don't have answers to crossups. It's not just Zard. And those that do have answers are completely MU dependent. Marth can ftilt if their move isn't better than -8 on block and he outranges them (a true 50/50 against ZSS bair -> ftilt, believe it or not). Mario can reverse Uspecial if the move isn't better than -4 on block and they mispace. Outside of range-y yet somewhat quick tilts and fast Uspecials, you pretty much need a sex kick to punish a badly spaced crossup assuming the opponent is crossing up with a move that is actually pretty favorable on block. I think a lot of characters lack those options. Cross ups are just safe.

But that doesn't mean that Charizard can't try to mindgame them after the crossup. If they dash in to try to read a roll away, you can dash away and try to surprise them with a pivot grab (Zard's is pretty good, btw). PP or dash away if you think they'll try to hit your shield again and see if you can punish them for whiffing. Or dash in to read their roll away.

 

[Steeler]

Turn around -> jab is a decent answer if you are precise about your stick movement