Charizard's instant jab lock (Correction: Nair trips)

[charizardbro]

Update: The long and short of it is that we have a guaranteed Dtilt out of Nair when it trips. Since it rarely trips, we hardly ever actually have a guaranteed followup out of Nair. But at least we are now certain that it can happen, albeit not very often. Please skip to the end of the OP or read the thread for a correct explanation of the video, courtesy of @ Ryukred

So I was playing For Glory the other day and it seems to me that Charizard can actually instantly set up a jab lock with Nair and 'jab' them with Dtilt to get the neutral getup. And we all know what that means...

https://youtu.be/6423VLEXWXY

That's a free Flare Blitz! And a total of around 35% damage depending on move staleness.

And since I don't have a friend to test all of this with I was hoping the fine people down in the Charizard forums could help me answer the following questions:

1. Was that Nair even techable?

Personally, I didn't see any tumble animation which would mean either the trip is guaranteed (doubtful, but maybe) or it requires an instant tech. Kind of like when you're on the receiving end of a high percent meteor smash on stage and manage to tech it instead of perfect shield because For Glory lag is... glorious.

2. Was that Dtilt techable?

Jab locks are typically done with low knockback tilts and jabs so I was not expecting Charizard's relatively high knockback Dtilt to actually work, even at low percent. I didn't see any tumble animation that would tell me that the Dtilt could have been tech'd but I'd like to see further testing done concerning that.

3. When does this whole thing work?

Most importantly, will sourspot Nair do the job too? I've never even sent someone into the tumble animation at a relevant percent with sourspot Nair but maybe I'm missing something. I also assume there are percent limits for the initial sweetspot Nair to set things up that are effected by character weight and possibly character height/size, I just don't know what they are. And further limitations from Dtilt knocking the opponent too high or too far away could be solved by using sourspot Ftilt or jab 1 instead. I don't know if either of those moves prompt the neutral getup the same way Dtilt does though. Also, the following video seems to think Nair and Dair are the only moves Charizard has with locking abilities https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZJx5F0kTms (see description) so maybe this is just some weird thing that only works on Ganondorf when he does a Dtilt.

If anybody is interested in doing some testing on their own or messaging me to do some together on 3DS sometime, I'd be all for it.

I'll update the OP if anyone finds anything.


Slightly longer update:

It turns out that Ganon was actually tripped by Nair. I thought it may have been a missed tech because his trip animation and missed tech animation look very similar until you give him enough time to sit up. I Dtilted as soon as he tripped so I missed that part. Dtilt also does not jab lock; that was just a missed tech. This means the other player chose to do the standard getup instead of roll or getup attack.

However, this does put you in a good situation to tech chase with Flare Blitz, as seen in the video. This whole setup will probably not work if your opponent techs in place after the Dtilt and immediately shields, as is the case with any other Flare Blitz tech chase. Lastly, I have not seen it myself but I will take @ Ryukred at his word that sourspot Nair can also trip at relatively low percents (roughly 40%) so the setup seen in the video can also work with a sourspot Nair.

 

[Ryukred]

1. The Nair was not techable because you made him trip, and trips are not techable.

2. Yes, the Dtilt was techable because you knocked him back. The lowest % Zard's Dtilt can knock back at is 8%(just tested it out) No idea if Zard having rage can make it lower.

3. Sourspot Nair will do the job aswell, it's funny how you said you've never gotten it to work and it's never happened for me aswell but I just tested it out in training mode and found out it indeed can happen with the sourspot aswell. I think moves that trip only trip at low percentages, but Ness's dtilt is the only move which trips at any percentage if I remember correctly.

 

[charizardbro]

1. I'm pretty sure trips are when the character falls on their butt though (not flat on their back). You can't get jab locked for stepping on Diddy Kong's banana peel. You can get jab locked for missing a tech. Two totally different things iirc.

2. I don't quite understand what you mean. I don't think it was necessarily techable just because he got knocked back. You can't tech moves with jab locking properties when someone is jab locking you. Jab locking also isn't percent dependent.

3. I kind of want to see a video of it. Could you upload one or tell me how to recreate it with the sourspot? I honestly never got it to work again with the sweetspot either when I tried to do it in training. Also, did you get the opponent to fall onto their butt or onto their back with Nair?

Oh also jab 1 and Ftilt will not jab lock. Looks like it's Nair and Dair at low percents only (like that video said) but also possibly Dtilt.

Edit: I also watched about half of that Charizard For Glory video on your channel. Use Flare Blitz on missed techs more. I saw you do it once but you had a lot more chances to do it. It's damn-near guaranteed and a lot of those FG players just never tech'd. Particularly on Dtilt and Ftilt .

 

[Ryukred]

Alright, looks like I've found out the issue. The problem is that you think it's not a trip, but it actually is. And I'll explain why you think that.
When Ganon trips, he lands on his back and then sits up, if you give him enough time, which you did not, which is why he was on his back for that quick second before you rudely interrupted his *sitting up animation*. Also, I think you're confused, I don't think dtilt has jab locking properties because it has too much knockback to keep the opponent still.
And you can't set up a jab lock from a trip, because you can only jab lock after someone misses a tech, and you cannot tech a trip.

Evidence: http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Lock

Alsoooo, that Charizard FG video I have up is a month old and was pretty close to when I just started playing Zard. I've trained with Zard a lot, especially with his amazing customs, so if I made another video for him, it would be waay better.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I did get with sourspot nair in training mode a couple minutes ago. It took me forever to get it though, which is probably why you haven't gotten it. And moves that trip are percentage dependent (except Ness's dtilt) so try and keep the bot's % lower than 40%.

Hope I cleared things up for you.

 

[charizardbro]

Ohhh yea you're right. God, that looked a lot like a blown tech. But moves like ZSS's Ftilt can jab lock despite the knock back but I think the catch is that the opponent can't be lifted off of the ground so Dtilt wouldn''t work.

Yea, that cleared a lot of things up, thanks. So then did my opponent just happen to choose the standard getup when they missed the tech on Dtilt?

 

[Ryukred]

No problem. And yeah, he used the standard getup.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yeah, Charizard's Dtilt can't jab lock, but that 30 degree angle is pretty good when you consider it launches opponents into a tech scenario as early as 7%. You can then try for a Meteor Dair followup, which will jab lock, then grab. Dair won't autocancel from a short hop, so I doubt there's enough time for a flare blitz. Every move of Charizards that jab locks requires you to be as close as possible, and they don't jab lock for long. Jab 1 will, but only on some characters. That hitbox won't strike very many opponents even when you are close.