Charizard Weaknesses and Solutions

[TimeSmash]

Hi everyone, I couldn't find a specific topic on this and I think it warranted more discussion than just general talk in the CV thread.

Basically, the purpose of this thread is to talk about Charizard weaknesses, either in general, in terms of ATs or matchups, or anything else you can think of!

I realize that there is a "Charizard is OP" thread hanging about, but I opened this thread to talk about weaknesses specifically. As someone who doesn't play Charizard or get to play a lot of them I'd love to hear your opinions, and solutions to the weaknesses discussed. Thanks!

 

[Dandy Lion]

Hi everyone, I couldn't find a specific topic on this and I think it warranted more discussion than just general talk in the CV thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-thread.331821/

This seems to be what you're looking for, no?

 

[TimeSmash]

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-thread.331821/

This seems to be what you're looking for, no?

Somewhat. I'm looking for non-specific character data too, like general weakness, laggy moves, mobility issues, etc. So talk in general but it can relate to MUs. But at the same time I don't want it to be solely MU discussion haha

 

[L Pag]

I feel like some of Charizard's biggest weaknesses is characters with fast or far tech rolls, as it makes it really hard to tech chase or forward smash out of down throw, or characters that can keep him out with projectiles and out space him in general. To combat the tech roll, I generally try to dash in the direction I think they are going to roll in and cancel the dash into jab and try to get a combo off. As for the projectiles, I generally try to be patient and inch closer while either jumping over or shielding them, and then grab if I'm on the ground when I reach them, or nair/fair if I'm in the air. With characters that can out space him, I try to sneak a nair in and follow up with what I see fit.

 

[Merfect]

In regards to weaknesses, Charizard seems to have a hard time with Water, Electric, and Rock types.

-Water types are hard to deal with due to the fact that they resist Charizards Fire attacks and can dish back significant damage in the form of Water attacks. Best to deal with these Pokemon with your Flying type moves.

-Electric types may not resist Fire, but they are usually faster than the mighty lizard. They can hit Zard with a devastating Thunderbolt before he gets the chance to hit them.

-Rock types are by far the hardest to deal with. Not only do they resist both Fire and Flying, but Rock type moves are also 4x Super-effective to Charizard. It gets even worse when they set up Stealth Rock to hinder Zard's mobility, his one advantage over them. Better Teach your Lizardon Earthquake for this MU.

Oh wait, wrong metagame.

 

[BluntedMask]

Projectiles is the number 1 weakness. Since charizard is a big punching bag it makes it hard to work around projectiles.

Even though hes extremely mobile zard still has can get locked down by projectiles.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

In regards to weaknesses, Charizard seems to have a hard time with Water, Electric, and Rock types.

-Water types are hard to deal with due to the fact that they resist Charizards Fire attacks and can dish back significant damage in the form of Water attacks. Best to deal with these Pokemon with your Flying type moves.

-Electric types may not resist Fire, but they are usually faster than the mighty lizard. They can hit Zard with a devastating Thunderbolt before he gets the chance to hit them.

-Rock types are by far the hardest to deal with. Not only do they resist both Fire and Flying, but Rock type moves are also 4x Super-effective to Charizard. It gets even worse when they set up Stealth Rock to hinder Zard's mobility, his one advantage over them. Better Teach your Lizardon Earthquake for this MU.

Oh wait, wrong metagame.

L2 Charizardite X DD Flare Blitz Dragon Claw Earthquake

Anyway, projectiles. Good spacing with nair through clever use of dash/WD OoS can let you eat an appropriate projectile and hit your opponent at once. Charizard is also more mobile that is immediately apparent, between Down-B to platform waveland shenanigans, the multiple jumps and glide. Sure, you have to jump through you opponents' hoops but that's what playing a Zoner is all about, ultimately. Zard definitely isn't as boned as most.

I'd say he has more trouble with straight-up pressure characters. Lucas, Diddy, spacies and the sort. Fortunately range and spacing can address these to a good extent as well.

 

[JOE!]

I've had more issues with projectiles, but mainly only two:

Lucas' PK Freeze, and the Boomerang. Everything else is manageable just through like Ftilt / Jab through the projectile (and hitting the shooter) or just your mobility (Such as Din's Fire, you can just take the lag she goes through to run up and get a free anything)

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Well I guess I'm not surprised that Mass knows the Zelda MU

 

[JOE!]

Well I guess I'm not surprised that Mass knows the Zelda MU

yeah, I really only figured that one out today vs KDJ. Essentially any time Zelda is standing and doing a PK fire, she can be grabbed by Zard on like any stage. I was able to zoom across FD and grab her it's nuts

 

[Mera Mera]

I play a Lucas player regularly and have gotten pretty used to PK freeze. You can beat it with anything but sourspot nair and maybe uair (though I don't know why you would uair at it). Basically anything that has disjoint will break it before it hits you. Also it has almost no shield stun, so shield -> wavedash works fine too.

I have by far the most trouble with Falco's lasers. I can get around them, but even though I do well against Falco, I never feel like I'm in control during the neutral game against him.

And yeah, I don't really think Zelda should be doing Din's fire in neutral. It doesn't have a hitbox until it's placed and you can't place it instantly, so it has a lot more start up than most people realize.

 

[Heroofhatz]

Charizard can get juggled like no one's business, specially against characters like MK.

The best way to get around this is to honestly accept that you're going to get juggled and don't do yourself the deed of burning all of your jumps, then you're really screwed. DI away and don't try to jump out of the string, you'll need them if you want to get back down to the ground in one piece.

 

[Mr.Random]

I wish he had better out of shield options and his up be being insanely hard to sweetspot with. I've recently picked up Zard as a third character and he is extremely fun to use but he has huge issue with pressure and his out of shield options are freaken terrible.

 

[JOE!]

Charizard can get juggled like no one's business, specially against characters like MK.

The best way to get around this is to honestly accept that you're going to get juggled and don't do yourself the deed of burning all of your jumps, then you're really screwed. DI away and don't try to jump out of the string, you'll need them if you want to get back down to the ground in one piece.

Luckily, the characters that juggle us gave trouble finishing us from the juggles from my experience, so mainly I just take it then FF bair to return and do more damage than they did with a followup.

Bair has 2 frames where you have a disjointed right below you, its amazing

 

[SuperNova!]

Charizard can get juggled like no one's business, specially against characters like MK.

The best way to get around this is to honestly accept that you're going to get juggled and don't do yourself the deed of burning all of your jumps, then you're really screwed. DI away and don't try to jump out of the string, you'll need them if you want to get back down to the ground in one piece.

That's very true, but he does have a couple good moves to help with that problem. Nair is excellent, as it has considerable range and covers pretty much all directions that your opponent may approach from. Bair is also good, but more risky.

 

[Heroofhatz]

I wish he had better out of shield options and his up be being insanely hard to sweetspot with. I've recently picked up Zard as a third character and he is extremely fun to use but he has huge issue with pressure and his out of shield options are freaken terrible.

He has actually some amazing OOS options.

If they land in front of you you have a shield grab.
Cross up means a OOS Nair.
Just generally too close to you means you can Up-B OOS, which is really fast and a good GTFO move.
OOS Dair is good for bigger punishes.

 

[Mr.Random]

He has actually some amazing OOS options.

If they land in front of you you have a shield grab.
Cross up means a OOS Nair.
Just generally too close to you means you can Up-B OOS, which is really fast and a good GTFO move.
OOS Dair is good for bigger punishes.

How fast is Zard's jump start up? I depends on how good it is.

 

[JOE!]

4 frames iirc

 

[Heroofhatz]

It's about as fast as Bowser's up b OOS. At least that's how it feels, could be a few frames faster or slower, but it certainly is fast.

 

[Mera Mera]

How fast is Zard's jump start up? I depends on how good it is.

Just double checked. Jump squat is indeed 4 frames, as JOE said.

That said, that won't affect grab, up B, or up Smash OoS, since for up B and up Smash, you are interrupting jump squat (at any point, so you could do it frame 1 of jumpsquat).

Edit: Also I second that up B OoS is super good with Zard. It's surprising since it seems so risky. Admittedly if they are low percent it's not advisable.

 

[Heroofhatz]

Just double checked. Jump squat is indeed 4 frames, as JOE said.

That said, that won't affect grab, up B, or up Smash OoS, since for up B and up Smash, you are interrupting jump squat (at any point, so you could do it frame 1 of jumpsquat).

Edit: Also I second that up B OoS is super good with Zard. It's surprising since it seems so risky. Admittedly if they are low percent it's not advisable.

It's still not that bad at low percent if you have a platform above you, reduces the ending lag just enough to make it safe sometimes but be advised, CC teching is really good against it even at high percents.

 

[Mr.Random]

Nair is probably my favorite Zard aerial. It's very versatile.

 

[-Key-]

I've had more issues with projectiles, but mainly only two:

Lucas' PK Freeze, and the Boomerang. Everything else is manageable just through like Ftilt / Jab through the projectile (and hitting the shooter) or just your mobility (Such as Din's Fire, you can just take the lag she goes through to run up and get a free anything)

PK Freeze is brutal, no question about that. Yoshi's Eggs are pretty bad too because the "pop" upon impact generally reaches past Charizard's disjoints.

 

[JOE!]

Yoshi vs Zard is a really weird MU, but I think we beat yoshi really bad in nearly any other aspect aside from when we're in the air and he's on the ground due soley to eggs

 

[-Key-]

Yoshi vs Zard is a really weird MU, but I think we beat yoshi really bad in nearly any other aspect aside from when we're in the air and he's on the ground due soley to eggs

There's a really good Yoshi in my area, but I haven't gotten a chance to play him yet with Charizard (though I should today). What is your strategy in terms of edgeguarding Yoshi? When I've played him as Falcon I've had no answers for his double jump armor so he always makes it back on-stage. I feel like Charizard having drastically better vertical chase abilities should help a lot since he usually recovers very high. I might actually be able to intercept him at the peak of his jump for a change.

 

[JOE!]

you cant really fight the armor till later, but it's easy to punish him when he is further out as one hit from zard before he is able to jump spells death

 

[Doctor Pink]

Every problem that Charizard has could be fixed by just giving him a Moonwalk

 

[Alex Night]

I've had more issues with projectiles, but mainly only two:

Lucas' PK Freeze, and the Boomerang. Everything else is manageable just through like Ftilt / Jab through the projectile (and hitting the shooter) or just your mobility (Such as Din's Fire, you can just take the lag she goes through to run up and get a free anything)

Lucas in general is just tough for Charizard. The freaking kid is mobile and yet so fat. xD He just destroys big opponents with his nair, dair, Magnet... Just everything he has beats down Charizard. He also really destroys CC users. I'm one of those users that likes the use of Flamethrower for on-stage game to annoy the enemy and mess up their approach and Lucas highly discourages that.

 

[ShadowShlong]

Hate trying to kill off the ceiling with upB, missing, and then cause charizard falls so freaking slow afterwards get punished for it even if i'm fast falling.

There's just no reason for charizard to have that delay he does after upB where he's just chilling there asking for punishment.

 

[-Key-]

Hate trying to kill off the ceiling with upB, missing, and then cause charizard falls so freaking slow afterwards get punished for it even if i'm fast falling.

There's just no reason for charizard to have that delay he does after upB where he's just chilling there asking for punishment.

On the other hand, the delay has at times saved me from getting edgehogged. So it's at least somewhat useful. But I agree, it is kinda sad how slow Charizard fast falls.

 

[L Pag]

Hate trying to kill off the ceiling with upB, missing, and then cause charizard falls so freaking slow afterwards get punished for it even if i'm fast falling.

There's just no reason for charizard to have that delay he does after upB where he's just chilling there asking for punishment.

I feel like this is pretty balanced, because zard can get easy kills from up smash/dair setups into a few up airs and up b, even being able to zero to death certain characters by doing this. If you mess it up, it's only fair for you to get punished for doing so.

 

[TimeSmash]

Thanks everyone for contributing so far. I'll probably edit the OP at some point as well to go over things we've discussed so far

 

[Heroofhatz]

Also we've talked about a lot of this in the Skype chat, I'll try and compile a list of what we talked about.

 

[TimeSmash]

Also we've talked about a lot of this in the Skype chat, I'll try and compile a list of what we talked about.

That'd be great actually. I'm not even a Charizard player at all but I think he's definitely way more interesting than a lot of the cast, and I think moves like Nair are just so useful for some shortcomings. Thanks!!!

 

[Heroofhatz]

So as it seems I'm going to be putting a lot of what we talked about in the guide that a couple of us are working on. Hopefully I can have it finished soon

 

[Blank Mauser]

I hate that Charizard's instant nair can't hit standing Metaknight.

 

[Tremendo Dude]

Charizard is a large character, so although he has tools for dealing with projectile pressure, he makes for a large target for projectiles. Also, it doesn't help that one of his best tools for dealing with said pressure (reversed Nair) is taken off the rack the second any of the projectiles deal damage, as Charizard will be forcibly turned around. That said, he does have other tools on the rack, and turning him around can still set him up for jabbing the projectiles away.

Many of his attacks come out rather quickly but have long cooldowns. Characters with great pressure can exploit those windows when they are presented to attempt to lock Charizard down.

Charizard can't jump out of his glide, and ends up eating all of his jumps if he ends up gliding before using them all. If you smack him off-stage out of his glide, he will be forced to use only Up B to recover, which can be easily punished.