character Unlocks

[soviet prince]

how many unlocks did the 1st game,melee and brawl have and do u think 4 will have character unlocks or go with the new trend of having everything unlcoked from the start. Also what about stages?

 

[nessokman]

brawl started off with a very small cast, i'm thinking about 23o. and the others were unlocked. Meaning 12 unlocks

 

[IntelliHeath1]

Melee - 11 secret characters
Brawl - 13 secret characters
SSB4 - 15-17 secret characters

 

[Kamikazek]

From what I've seen Sakurai seems big on rewarding players for playing(see his comment about him wanting the subspace videos to be a reward for the player). Unlockable characters are one of the best rewards you can have for playing a fighting game so given his philosophy I'd say a pre-unlocked roster is unlikely, but you can never say for sure. Same goes for stages.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

What is this trend thou speakest of, and since when did Sakurai start caring about trends?

4, 11, 13, ?... yeah there isn't a clear pattern there. I'm just going to take a shot in the dark and call the first one an outlier. Thus 15 sounds about right to me. The real question is will most of the unlockables be veterans like last time? I think the reason for that was so he could reveal the newcomers to us. Then again I don't know if he'd use the same tactic twice since it didn't exactly work out that well last time.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Then again I don't know if he'd use the same tactic twice since it didn't exactly work out that well last time.

The initial available fighters for Brawl was the most thrown together crap I've seen in my life. In the next game they need to be more consistent with public spoils, default and previous rosters. Brawl took a lot (all) of the fun and tension out of getting a "Challenger Approaching!" thrown at you, except for that brief moment after SSE where you find out there were a few spots to go back to, and you think, "Oh boy! They must have saved the best for last!" and it's Toon Link.

... do u think 4 will ... go with the new trend of having everything unlcoked from the start.

I hope not. I really hope they start with the original 8 this time, but streamline the single player mode and spread out a few unlocks across aspects of the game as in Melee. Rambling now, maybe even have a shop for your coins now where you can purchase things, such as Falco. He is a mercenary after all.

 

[soviet prince]

I do wish he reveal secret characters on the dojo, I hate to have to wait to see if ridley is in considering he is likely an unlock if in

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Sakurai admits the internet ruins all surprises so I hope he realizes that having unlockable characters is mostly a waste of time (we'll all know the full cast by the time the game comes out anyway). It's not a huge deal either way since we'll all have everything important unlocked in less than a week for a game we'll be playing for years, but it sure would be nice to be spared that effort.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

Sakurai admits the internet ruins all surprises so I hope he realizes that having unlockable characters is mostly a waste of time (we'll all know the full cast by the time the game comes out anyway). It's not a huge deal either way since we'll all have everything important unlocked in less than a week for a game we'll be playing for years, but it sure would be nice to be spared that effort.

Yeah he knows about the internet, but I doubt he's going to take that logic as far as you suggest.

Could you imagine if he went even further and said, "Well people can just watch clips of people playing the game online so I'm not actually going to release the game publicly. It'll just be a gift for a few random active youtubers."

 

[soviet prince]

Yeah he knows about the internet, but I doubt he's going to take that logic as far as you suggest.

Could you imagine if he went even further and said, "Well people can just watch clips of people playing the game online so I'm not actually going to release the game publicly. It'll just be a gift for a few random active youtubers."

lol

 

[Dark Phazon]

lol

Lmfao...thats ****ed....

 

[Zonderion]

Sakurai admits the internet ruins all surprises so I hope he realizes that having unlockable characters is mostly a waste of time (we'll all know the full cast by the time the game comes out anyway). It's not a huge deal either way since we'll all have everything important unlocked in less than a week for a game we'll be playing for years, but it sure would be nice to be spared that effort.

I would enjoy a challenge/reward system. Cut scenes aren't very rewarding, because you can watch them on YouTube. Characters as rewards means I have to do a bunch of stuff just to unlock Captain Falcon... again, just to play with him. Stages I think work well for a reward. You simply only need one stage to play Smash, and the others make great rewards. But what about having items as unlockables? Maybe not all the items, but maybe the good ones, like the Smash ball...

It might actually get casuals to spend a little more time with the game rather than just loading up a 4 player FFA...

 

[Xigger]

Whatever unlocks are in the game, Sakurai will probably figure it out before we do.

Inb4 character unlocks takes months and you have some choice in choosing who to unlock next

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Whatever unlocks are in the game, Sakurai will probably figure it out before we do.

You are making me think too hard, Xiqqer.

Characters as rewards means I have to do a bunch of stuff just to unlock Captain Falcon... again, just to play with him.

They are rewards. That's the idea. Sometimes surprises to people who haven't seen spoilers. I think unlocking more game is a great idea as long as it isn't turned into a grind.

 

[Zonderion]

You are making me think too hard, Xiqqer.



They are rewards. That's the idea. Sometimes surprises to people who haven't seen spoilers. I think unlocking more game is a great idea as long as it isn't turned into a grind.

I agree. The challenge needs to be equal to the reward and vice-versa. The challenges need to be enjoyable, and not a grind. Unless they turn it into an RPG... I could probably get behind that.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

I agree. The challenge needs to be equal to the reward and vice-versa. The challenges need to be enjoyable, and not a grind. Unless they turn it into an RPG... I could probably get behind that.

RPG's are allowed to be mindless grind fest because **** yeah I found a +2 Axe of Death!

 

[peeup]

My favorite thing about fighting games is unlocking characters. It gives you something to do as you learn the game.

 

[Morbi]

I actually really liked unlocking characters. Unlocking Mewtwo (one of my favorite Pokemon along side Alakazam/Gengar) it was the best feeling in the world. The grind was worth it. In Melee, I didn't spoil anything at all. So each secret character was actually a secret too me. I remember looking at Ganondorf's silhouette thinking it was going to be some horrible anime character. I couldn't even tell what Dr. Mario was... his silhouette didn't really look anything like him (at first glance). Either way, it was the best experience I have ever had.

I was also super excited to find out that Wolf, Toon Link, and Jigglypuff where in the game. I was keeping up on the dojo... but once the game launched in Japan I stopped lurking. So unlocking my favorite Star Fox character while I thought I already had everyone was amazing.

Do I mind the grind? No. It makes it even more rewarding. I am used to playing games that require you to grind anyways. It doesn't need to be extreme. I realize gamers today are ENTITLED and want everything unlocked from the get-go...

 

[Zonderion]

Do I mind the grind? No. It makes it even more rewarding. I am used to playing games that require you to grind anyways. It doesn't need to be extreme. I realize gamers today are ENTITLED and want everything unlocked from the get-go...

A Lot of the generation now a days are "entitled", but just because someone ask to play the entire game upfront doesn't necessarily mean they are entitled. Specifically with a fighter game. If it were an adventure/RPG then it is expected for people to have to work towards a goal. But with a fighter, the only goal there typically is, is the one to get better at button mashing.

Now if they turn it into a mix of genres, it makes sense to have to "progress" towards a goal.

Would you be satisfied if they gave you only 1 character out of 50 and you had to progress towards unlocking all 50? And lets say the requirements to unlocking each additional character requires 10 hours of game time per character. There's gotta be a balance. So asking for everything to be "unlocked" in a game that doesn't inherently have a goal that is objective in nature, isn't necessarily being "entitled".

 

[Morbi]

A Lot of the generation now a days are "entitled", but just because someone ask to play the entire game upfront doesn't necessarily mean they are entitled. Specifically with a fighter game. If it were an adventure/RPG then it is expected for people to have to work towards a goal. But with a fighter, the only goal there typically is, is the one to get better at button mashing.

Now if they turn it into a mix of genres, it makes sense to have to "progress" towards a goal.

Would you be satisfied if they gave you only 1 character out of 50 and you had to progress towards unlocking all 50? And lets say the requirements to unlocking each additional character requires 10 hours of game time per character. There's gotta be a balance. So asking for everything to be "unlocked" in a game that doesn't inherently have a goal that is objective in nature, isn't necessarily being "entitled".

Demanding everything to be unlocked initially is not being entitled? I mean obviously we have intent to consider. Sora Ltd. clearly likes having unlock-able content. So at this point, demanding a Smash game to have everything unlocked is actually being entitled. It doesn't matter what genre the game is. You can try and justify it however you want. I am not even sure if you play fighters aside from Smash. Most fighting games do not allow you to get better at button mashing... unlocking characters has also been a staple of fighting games before they received the competitive make over.

As for your extreme example? Yes. I wouldn't mind starting off with only one character. Obviously I wouldn't want to wait 10 hours to get my second. That is why there has to be a balance as you mentioned. For the most part, all of the Smash games have this balance.

 

[TheBakonBitz]

Sakurai if you are reading this, when you release characters in the Dojo periodically this time, please only release the characters that you start off with. I don't look at the spoilers but once it hits it's all over the internet. I think it should be kept a secret because it's a lot better when that challenger approaching screen comes up and that's the first time you have seen that character in Smash. Plus I think that unlocking the characters in Subspace was a joke. I prefer the Melee style where you had to work for it, then beat them. I think it should be optional: Would you like the fight the character, or get him for free?

 

[edde]

i'd love actually challenging unlocks... like beating classic on hard without continuing to unlock some1, or clear all target tests (or something like that) within some time... or beating an event for beating any game mode in any way(like crazy hand, or melee's giga bowser)... and well, the classic jigglypuff unlock after your first classic lol... or after collecting most of the trophies

 

[Zonderion]

Demanding everything to be unlocked initially is not being entitled? I mean obviously we have intent to consider. Sora Ltd. clearly likes having unlock-able content. So at this point, demanding a Smash game to have everything unlocked is actually being entitled. It doesn't matter what genre the game is. You can try and justify it however you want. I am not even sure if you play fighters aside from Smash. Most fighting games do not allow you to get better at button mashing... unlocking characters has also been a staple of fighting games before they received the competitive make over.

As for your extreme example? Yes. I wouldn't mind starting off with only one character. Obviously I wouldn't want to wait 10 hours to get my second. That is why there has to be a balance as you mentioned. For the most part, all of the Smash games have this balance.

I think you nailed it with the "intent". As I said earlier, as long as the challenges are enjoyable, its a great idea. Not the extreme grinding example I used earlier.

 

[Aurora Jenny]

Yeah, no kidding, I rather enjoyed mucking about, seeing what unlocked and how. The above mentioned unlocks? Why not just comibine Adventure Mode with Event Modes, and have those quirky challenges be added as you discover them while playing through as different characters? I mean the Event Modes often have very specific circumstances to begin with. Maybe you have regular Events and more are found as you play through. I don't know. There's plenty of ways without grinding.. or keeping each run through fresh.

 

[Aurora Jenny]

The bottom line is, Sakurai himself admits that he noticed it. He's obviously going to be trying something different, so I don't think we'll have to worry too much about grinding except for the trophies for each character. The bigger stuff like stages and such won't be a bore I think.

 

[Lemonwater]

It would be a nice throwback if we began with ONLY the 8 beginning super-vets from SSB64 and had to unlock the entire remainder of the cast.

Just my opinion and I'm sure it would be really tedious for people who want to just play VS matches, but there you have it.

As long as stage select and item adjustment begin unlocked, it's all good.

 

[Zonderion]

I like the idea of the original 8 characters being the only ones unlocked. I think the same should go for stages and items too. =D

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I think Brawl's amount of unlockables were fine, the problem lied in that you simply unlocked them through SSE. I don't think they should be too hard or tedious to unlock, having to wait to unlock someone like Mewtwo again (20 hours of VS play) would be stressful given that this time we know that they're in the game, he was a nice surprise back then, but I would dread not having a great unique character before 20 hours of VS play. They should find a nice middle ground which isn't too hard or too easy, just like they're trying to do with gameplay.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It actually only took a little over an hour to unlock everything in Brawl, but doing so was very tedious. You just set a special Brawl up to stamina flower with the AI's health at 1 HP and did 450 matches really quickly, switching characters a few strategic times to unlock some stages. SSE takes forever, and this is the only way to unlock Jigglypuff, Toon Link, and Wolf without doing SSE so if you want to unlock a set-up quickly you have to do it this way. Then you just had to get Hanenbow, Spear Pillar, and Mario Bros. from event matches, and you had all characters and stages. I'd prefer not to deal with this again, but then again, it isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Just like last time, I'll be sure to chart out the optimum unlock path, and I'll probably post it on smashboards this time so people can unlock their set-ups as quickly as possible.

 

[Aurora Jenny]

Ugh, I don't mean to be rude, but may I PLEASE point out the fact that every character had THREE different modes of unlocks? Don't you think this was there for a reason? Think about it.

SSE Method: You had the RPG/Sidestroller fans who enjoys the casual romp and exploration of meeting people as they fight towards a common goal or similar interests. The way you have people cutting in and out of the battle is what you'd expect. There's no instant gratification as that's not the point of an RPG.

Single Player/Collectors: These guys don't have the time for a big adventure, or maybe they just want a challenge that's not a straight up brawl against computer for lack of friends. You've got the various quickies of classic, Events, and other things to indulge yourselves with, and a chance at discovering new characters to unlock.

Fight X-Number of Battles: This is the grind-method, but honestly, when you have a large number of friends. The numbers are going to rack up like no one's business rather than seen like a dull way of doing things.

All in all, I thought Sakurai had the right of it in how he did things, it's just today's generation has had things handed to them on a silver platter and things have been dumbed down so they don't get too frustrated rather than appreciating the challenge and success of a hard-won fight. It's all about instant gratification these days and not wanting to stress their brain pans, sad to say. Admittedly, I'm guilty of this at times, but that's the point of entertainment, PLAYING the blasted games rather than having it played for you. When you're resorting to tactics like what Amphoros above me is doing... you probably have no business buying this kind of game if you knew ahead of time what you were getting into. We should appreciate the effort put into these games and ask why they chose this instead of complaining without all the facts. Admittedly, WarioFan does have a point about some of the chosen unlock methods. That was a bit out there.

Edit: Whoops. Yeah, forgot about Wolf, Toon Link, and Jigglypuff's unlock. That was the odd one and probably falls under the "What were you thinking?" category along with Mewtwo's 20 hours of gameplay unlock.

 

[Lemonwater]

I like the idea of multiple ways of unlocking every character.

Here are some alternate unlocks I can think of:
-Jiggly: Collect a certain number of music CDs
-Luigi: Beat a team of Bowser and Peach, using Mario with a Yoshi ally (or Yoshi with a Mario ally), on a certain stage
-Wario: Summon Waluigi with assist trophy as Mario, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi or Luigi
-Marth: Play a VS match with 4 sword-wielding characters on a certain stage
-G&W: Play a 4 player free-for-all with all items on, set to very high, on a random stage
-Mewtwo: Summon every possible Pokemon with Pokeball throws
-Ganondorf: Use Link in his Dark Link outfit and win a 4-way Smash match
-Metaknight: Defeat an opponent without losing a life in a match that begins with 3 or more stock
-Captain Falcon: Burn an opponent after striking them with a punching attack, or strike a burning opponent with a punching attack
-Sonic: Be the first to deal damage in a match 20 times
-Megaman: Play at least 1 match with every starting character in each of that character's outfits
-Roy: Win 20 games with Marth

 

[Aurora Jenny]

*comes back a bit calmer* I'm sorry for ranting like I did, people

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

*comes back a bit calmer* I'm sorry for ranting like I did, people

Happens to the best of us... it's just some of us get lucky and accidentally hit delete instead of "Post Reply."

 

[UberMadman]

I LOVE character unlocking, because it is so satisfying when I finally get a character, the effort adds a lot more playability to the game, and it beats the SH*T out of DLC. I'd rather have not all the characters unlocked and have to go out of my way to collect them all instead of starting off with everybody and having to get more by DLC, one of the reasons I really like Smash.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

I like the idea of multiple ways of unlocking every character.

Me too.
I mean: Every player should be able to play the game way s/he likes, and being rewarded for any success. But not forced to do the things they want to till S/he will eventually stop liking the game.

 

[Zonderion]

Me too.
I mean: Every player should be able to play the game way s/he likes, and being rewarded for any success. But not forced to do the things they want to till S/he will eventually stop liking the game.

What if I wanted to play the game w/o having to spend time unlocking anything. Should I get my way too?

 

[Lemonwater]

What if I wanted to play the game w/o having to spend time unlocking anything. Should I get my way too?

That's called not actually playing the game. That's expecting all the achievements to be handed to you.

I view the unlockables sort of like achievements. They aren't required in order for you to play the game.

 

[Zonderion]

That's called not actually playing the game. That's expecting all the achievements to be handed to you.

I view the unlockables sort of like achievements. They aren't required in order for you to play the game.

Oh I'm sorry. When did Smash change from a platform fighter to a puzzle game that you have to figure out how to get achievements?

First off, achievements do not equal unlockables. Secondly, if they "Lock" characters, then Player A cannot play the game "as s/he would like" (quote from Hypercat) because s/he can't play with a character that has been locked.

I was asking Hypercat a question concerning his logic. If ALL players should play the game s/he wants, then as a result, Player A should be allowed to have a button that unlocks everything. Otherewise, Player A is not able to play the game how s/he wants too.

I can only presume you were raising the question of "how the game is played". Which in itself is a very logical question. But to assume that the only way this game is played is by unlocking things, or getting achievements is a flawed assumption.

Edit: My point is not that we should give people who feel entitled everything they want, but for people to realize that in order to have a game, there has to be rules. Not everyone enjoys unlocking stuff, and that's okay. They can choose not to play if they don't get enjoyment from the game.

 

[Lemonwater]

You are right. They do not equal achievements, I never said they do. But I do compare them to achievements in that players must invest some time and effort into the game in order to get them. Remember back in Smash 64 when a lot of us didn't have internet access and unlocks were pleasant surprises unless you heard how to unlock stuff from another person, and you sort of just played with your friends until stuff popped up? A game does not need to be a puzzle game in order to unlock achievements, nor are achievements the sole purpose of playing a game (to most). Smash's roster isn't particularly difficult to unlock in the first place.

I am not asking anything, merely making a loose comparison.

Smash is a very unusual game among fighters and party games in that it's a hybrid. And one that began aimed more toward the casual crowd than the competitive crowd, at that. It's can be played in many ways. But even some fighters have unlockable characters and that does not turn them into puzzle games. And people don't openly complain about unlocks as much in those fighter games that have unlockable characters. I'm pretty sure Hypercat meant that the game should be as appealing to as many people as possible, not that it should cater to the demands of every single player.

 

[Zonderion]

I agree with everything you just said. I was playing devil's advocate to Hypercat's statement that all should be able to play the game s/he likes. Because making a game that becomes subjective fun to every person that plays it is theoretically impossible.