Character Swaps - When to do them?

[Gr4pefru1t]

Hello fellow Smashers! Still fairly new to the competitive scene, and I was hoping that someone could shed some light on a rule that I haven't been able to pinpoint from any Ruleset (namely Apex2015 and Anther's Ladder). Anyways, the question is:

When considering a Character change, when are the times I can do so?

Obviously, the first time is immediately after the match. But I've heard of situations where a person has swapped out their current character for another AFTER deciding a stage. Is this legal? Is it abusing another person's lack of the rules?
Did I just overlook something in the Ruleset that would have already answered my question? Help!

 

[John12346]

Generally speaking, after a game has ended, the process works like this:

- The winner of the previous game can ban 1 or 2 stages(depends on ruleset).
- The loser of the previous game then picks the next stage to play on.
- The winner of the previous game can then change their character if they want to.
- The loser of the previous game can then change their character if they want to.

Usually, you're not supposed to switch your character IMMEDIATELY after a game ends, you wait for the right moment of the process so your opponent can't plan against your character by picking BOTH a stage and character that disadvantages the one you're using.

 

[thehard]

Generally speaking, after a game has ended, the process works like this:

- The winner of the previous game can ban 1 or 2 stages(depends on ruleset).
- The loser of the previous game then picks the next stage to play on.
- The winner of the previous game can then change their character if they want to.
- The loser of the previous game can then change their character if they want to.

Usually, you're not supposed to switch your character IMMEDIATELY after a game ends, you wait for the right moment of the process so your opponent can't plan against your character by picking BOTH a stage and character that disadvantages the one you're using.

At the tournaments you've attended, where does the custom selection process fit in? Does it go winner-winner-loser-loser or winner-loser-winner-loser?

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

Generally speaking, after a game has ended, the process works like this:

- The winner of the previous game can ban 1 or 2 stages(depends on ruleset).
- The loser of the previous game then picks the next stage to play on.
- The winner of the previous game can then change their character if they want to.
- The loser of the previous game can then change their character if they want to.

Usually, you're not supposed to switch your character IMMEDIATELY after a game ends, you wait for the right moment of the process so your opponent can't plan against your character by picking BOTH a stage and character that disadvantages the one you're using.

Is it in that order? Winner chooses to switch or not, then the loser? I mean, it sounds right. Just want to make sure

 

[John12346]

Custom sets are usually chosen with the character, but that's just because we don't really have any explicit rule stating what to do. No matter which way you slice it though, someone's gonna be at a disadvantage.

 

[Ansou]

Custom sets are usually chosen with the character, but that's just because we don't really have any explicit rule stating what to do. No matter which way you slice it though, someone's gonna be at a disadvantage.

I would say that the optimal way to do it is:

1. Winner picks a character
2. Loser picks a character
3. Winner picks a custom moveset
4. Loser picks a custom moveset

And for the first game in a set:
1. Both players pick their characters
2. Both players pick their custom movesets

This way both players have the possibility to pick the optimal moveset for the matchup, so they won't be left with a move that is completely useless in the matchup. However, only the loser can pick a moveset that somehow counters the winner's moveset (movesets countering other movesets is a bit rare, though). The only annoying thing with this is that it adds one (or two) additional steps(s) to the process and makes it slightly more complicated for the players.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

I would say that the optimal way to do it is:

1. Winner picks a character
2. Loser picks a character
3. Winner picks a custom moveset
4. Loser picks a custom moveset

And for the first game in a set:
1. Both players pick their characters
2. Both players pick their custom movesets

No. This is too much. this adds too much to the whole striking system, and adding time inbewteen games. Keep striking/character selecting as simple as possible.
If customs are legal, the custom movesets should be chosen as your character selection. Not pick one thing, see what your opponent picks, then change your movesets up..

 

[Ansou]

No. This is too much. this adds too much to the whole striking system, and adding time inbewteen games. Keep striking/character selecting as simple as possible.
If customs are legal, the custom movesets should be chosen as your character selection. Not pick one thing, see what your opponent picks, then change your movesets up..

Actually, I don't think it would take much longer in reality, although I do think that it makes things more complicated for players. This is not something that would have to be done every single game, it would only be done when a player feels that they can have a better moveset for the matchup. It doesn't matter that much, but if we were to add an explicit rule for it, I think that this would be the way to do it.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

Actually, I don't think it would take much longer in reality, although I do think that it makes things more complicated for players. This is not something that would have to be done every single game, it would only be done when a player feels that they can have a better moveset for the matchup. It doesn't matter that much, but if we were to add an explicit rule for it, I think that this would be the way to do it.

Yeah.. Still no.
"Not too much longer" is a lot of time to add at a tourney. the winning player is only put at a very slight disadvantage. Since he/she picks their character after the map choice.
This is too back and forth.
"I pick 'X' character"
"Ok, I pick 'Y' character"
"Well I'm changing to 'xxxx' moves then"
"Fine, then I'm switching to 'yyyy' moves then"
Sounds like two young kids arguing.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yeah.. Still no.
"Not too much longer" is a lot of time to add at a tourney. the winning player is only put at a very slight disadvantage. Since he/she picks their character after the map choice.
This is too back and forth.
"I pick 'X' character"
"Ok, I pick 'Y' character"
"Well I'm changing to 'xxxx' moves then"
"Fine, then I'm switching to 'yyyy' moves then"
Sounds like two young kids arguing.

Whether it's time consuming or not, it's essential that some sort of rule be codified so that in the event someone wants to change their custom set, they have an official rule to refer to and fall back on in case of disputes.

And what's wrong with the situation you describe, anyway? It sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Remember that picking a custom set from the CSS takes all of two seconds. (Making a fresh one takes longer, of course, but presets seem to be used the majority of the time for now.)

 

[mega4000]

Custom sets are usually chosen with the character, but that's just because we don't really have any explicit rule stating what to do. No matter which way you slice it though, someone's gonna be at a disadvantage.

that's the answer I want. I will find very stupid to remain with the same character after winning a game and being forced to choose set before my opponent switchs character. What's the point of custom moves then? imagine if your opponent is using a melee fighter so you are using a melee oriented set but then he switchs to a spammer. What's the point of the reflectors and so on? and why we created optimal sets to fight some characters if we can't use them?

No. This is too much. this adds too much to the whole striking system, and adding time inbewteen games. Keep striking/character selecting as simple as possible.
If customs are legal, the custom movesets should be chosen as your character selection. Not pick one thing, see what your opponent picks, then change your movesets up..

whats the point of custom moves then? what aout all those reflectors and so on? if thats the way this is gonna go then better ban custom moves and move on, because a lot of characters depends on changing there customs depending on who are they facing while others like donkey and villager have one or two sets and thats it. If i don't change my character after winning and my opponet counter picks mine I have all the right to choose the right set to face him. If that doesn't happen then a lot of sets will get discarded just for the fear of being uselss against certain characters and that is guaranteed lost. With that system customs will be banned after the evo because a lot of matches will be boring to watch. Imagine a megaman with 3323 winning a set against a melee character and then he sticks to that set and the opponent choose a spammer. He is guaranteed to loose so you are throwing that game right there.

 

[cot(θ)]

Yeah.. Still no.
"Not too much longer" is a lot of time to add at a tourney. the winning player is only put at a very slight disadvantage. Since he/she picks their character after the map choice.
This is too back and forth.
"I pick 'X' character"
"Ok, I pick 'Y' character"
"Well I'm changing to 'xxxx' moves then"
"Fine, then I'm switching to 'yyyy' moves then"
Sounds like two young kids arguing.

It isn't any longer at all...

Instead of:
winner picks character -> winner scrolls down to his moveset and selects it -> loser picks character -> loser scrolls down to his moveset and selects it,
you have:
winner picks character -> loser picks character -> winner scrolls down to his moveset and selects it -> loser scrolls down to his moveset and selects it.

And personally, when my opponent mains multiple characters, I know I will take longer to choose my custom set when I have to guess which character he will choose, whereas if I already know his character, choosing my moveset is usually a no-brainer.

Honestly, likening that little dialog to "two young kids arguing" makes me wonder if you're just trolling...

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

It isn't any longer at all...

Instead of:
winner picks character -> winner scrolls down to his moveset and selects it -> loser picks character -> loser scrolls down to his moveset and selects it,
you have:
winner picks character -> loser picks character -> winner scrolls down to his moveset and selects it -> loser scrolls down to his moveset and selects it.

And personally, when my opponent mains multiple characters, I know I will take longer to choose my custom set when I have to guess which character he will choose, whereas if I already know his character, choosing my moveset is usually a no-brainer.

Honestly, likening that little dialog to "two young kids arguing" makes me wonder if you're just trolling...

I'm personally liking this one the best.

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

Well, EVO rules are official now. New topic of debate

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Well, EVO rules are official now. New topic of debate

They're not locked until the 27th, unless Wizard tweeted saying he's done working on Smash 4 rules and I missed it.

 

[mega4000]

Well, EVO rules are official now. New topic of debate

where can i see them?

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

I saw a tweet (a Picture, actually) from D1 of Melee and Sm4sh Rules for EVO'15. This very well may be just his input, but being a highly influential figure in the community....

Check out @xD1x's Tweet: https://twitter.com/xD1x/status/580868859768401920?s=09

 

[Gr4pefru1t]

I was in a state of hype, please forgive the scare if it ended up being his opinion

 

[mega4000]

I was in a state of hype, please forgive the scare if it ended up being his opinion

it doesn't say anything about when you choose custom moves.

 

[Ansou]

it doesn't say anything about when you choose custom moves.

Nope. I did send him a tweet about it, but I have not gotten any response.