Character Matchups Too Strong?

[KenboCalrissian]

Is it just me, or are individual MUs waaay more potent in this iteration than in others?

Having only played the demo, I'm noticing some serious one-sidedness amongst the small character pool available. For example, Pikachu completely trumps Mario, Mario walks all over Villager, Link destroys Megaman... am I imagining this, or is there a much, much more potent counter-pick game this go-around?

 

[staindgrey]

It's way too early to say, and 2min. rounds don't tell us much. Tournament results and long periods of time with the game in people's hands will ultimately tell us what's what.

That said, with this big of a roster, matchups will indeed be a huge deal. I don't think anyone will be able to dominate with only one character, unless we get another Metaknight situation on our hands. Every major player will need a few secondaries available to contend with difficult matchups, more so than in past iterations.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Yeah, I hope you're right... the Pikachu vs. Mario MU is the one that really stands out to me though, even in 2 minute matches it's pretty darn consistent. I'm not yet fearing a "one character to rule them all" situation, though it does feel a bit rock-paper-scissors-y. Definitely not enough experience with it yet to know whether it's true or not.

 

[Enigma14]

Link's shield, Mario's cape and Villager's pocket trumps Megaman

 

[Raijinken]

Everything trumps Megaman. Pikachu can just run and jump over his stuff. Gotta play smart.

That said, I wouldn't mind too much if the game started focusing more on character matchup and less on stage pick strength (since we have Flatmode for basically every stage). Would encourage people to learn more characters than just the top three.

 

[Fafnir]

That said, I wouldn't mind too much if the game started focusing more on character matchup and less on stage pick strength (since we have Flatmode for basically every stage). Would encourage people to learn more characters than just the top three.

Or we could just have a well balanced cast all around. I'd rather have to rely on playing against the player, not the character.

 

[Raijinken]

Or we could just have a well balanced cast all around. I'd rather have to rely on playing against the player, not the character.

That's the ideal, but is hardly realistic in a game where characters aren't literally identical. We CAN hope that they're close enough that the better player will consistently win, though.

 

[KurashiDragon]

In the clash tournament's 3ds tournament today, I think everyone pretty much agreed that Lil' Mac roflstomps zelda and Robin may be a solid Lil' Mac check. I do notice how there seems to be a match up thing happening. I certainly hope it's not an extreme case though and we get at least some character versatility.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

This may be a bit off topic, but I want to ask because I think it'll help me form my own ideas about this concept.

Anyone seen or experienced much of the Lucina/Marth vs Ness matchup? One of Ness's worst matchups in Melee, Brawl AND Project M is Marth simply because of Marth's range being too big for him to do much about (though Brawl's super-long chaingrab Marth could do only made that worse lol). Marth's character archetype naturally counters him. I watched a set between Luck and Awestin early today and Awestin didn't seem to be struggling much whilst Luck was playing as Lucina.

Granted, this could just be because Awestin is a beast or because Ness has bigger reach in most of his moves in this game...
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Well specific examples or not, I'm sure the "chaingrab immunity" will make at least one matchup that existed in Brawl less lop-sided. Pikachu vs Fox comes to mind.

 

[Fafnir]

That's the ideal, but is hardly realistic in a game where characters aren't literally identical. We CAN hope that they're close enough that the better player will consistently win, though.

Other games can at least do a decent job of getting it as close as possible, however. Smash's game balance testing has always been a joke.

 

[SevenYearItch]

I'd rather character matchups be radical. Will at least allow us to see different characters online in sets instead of Marth vs Fox until my eyes bleed. Everyone will have to have pocket characters that they know just as well as mains

 

[Fafnir]

I'd rather character matchups be radical. Will at least allow us to see different characters online in sets instead of Marth vs Fox until my eyes bleed. Everyone will have to have pocket characters that they know just as well as mains

And instead of becoming a game about outplaying your opponent, it'll be about mindlessly counter picking with the hope that you can get the lead in a set.

Sure, Melee's later-era homogeny has ended up getting pretty bad, but at least at top level, the game still revolves around fighting the player.

 

[SevenYearItch]

[Quote "Fafnir, post: 17581010, member: 65454"]And instead of becoming a game about outplaying your opponent, it'll be about mindlessly counter picking with the hope that you can get the lead in a set.

Sure, Melee's later-era homogeny has ended up getting pretty bad, but at least at top level, the game still revolves around fighting the player.[/quote]

But it will ALWAYS be about skill level regardless. You're not going to ever be in a position where someone who doesnt place at tournies will beat a Mang0 or M2K every match because of the character. Only place it will matter is within areas of skill where it would come down to counter picks anyways. This just shows it a bit more with the diversity

 

[Fafnir]

Except if matchups are radical, as you describe, against more evenly matched players, it'll come down to who got the lucky counter at the first blind pick.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

I'd rather character matchups be radical. Will at least allow us to see different characters online in sets instead of Marth vs Fox until my eyes bleed. Everyone will have to have pocket characters that they know just as well as mains

I'm afraid this leaves the competitive scene up to luck. Nobody knows yet who will be top tier. What are the odds the top-tier picks will counter each other? Chances are, they won't - a rock-paper-scissors roster will likely result in two or three characters who are dead even with each other becoming the most popular blind picks (or even worse, frequently dittos), then round 2 sees a counter-pick of the winner, then round 3 counters the counter, and whoever won the first match ends up with two wins to the set (Games 1 and 3). Move on, repeat. I'm not saying skill won't matter, but players at an even skill level seem to be forced into an unfair situation.

In theory, I absolutely think they had diversity in mind when they saw matchups playing out like this. In practice, I think it's still going to lead to stagnation, perhaps earlier than it did with Melee. I hope I'm just being a pessimist!

 

[Raijinken]

Other games can at least do a decent job of getting it as close as possible, however. Smash's game balance testing has always been a joke.

True statement. Hopefully Nandai did a better job, I'm not exactly familiar with their track record, I just have a hunch it's better than Smash.

There's always balance patches to dream of.

 

[TiGGesta]

Yeah Megaman is definitely below every other demo character, but other than that the demo was quite balanced. I hope that it transcends to the actual game.

 

[Dsull]

Megaman is nothing but just "fun" as any real competitive player can counter him without even trying. He is a projectile character, since even his tilts and A attacks are projectiles, but ALL OF THEM are slow, countered by any and everything, cant be spammed (he tries to throw both the blade and the bomb twice before he can throw it again...dafuq), and he has huge lag after any of his moves leaving him wide open.
I get hes a character all about shooting and they captured his image well, but the numbers they gave his image is just...laughable. His bomb shouldnt be transferrable and should latch onto you even if you shield since its so slow and doesnt do much, leaf shield should block projectiles without throwing it (take a leaf each time it blocks something, doesnt work on charge shots unless thrown), and lemons shouldnt have that delay after the 3rd shot OR should knock back enough so they cant hit you during the 3 shot volley.

As for the match up onesidedness, its there but not that profound when you get good. DuckHunt is annoying as gak for me as Lucario and/or Diddykong, purely because all they do is camp with weird projectile paths. Once i get in there i wreck them.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Now that the full version is out, I'm not feeling as strongly about one-sided matchups. There are clear advantages in some cases (haaate Rosalina) but with practice, anybody can overcome them.

Then again, I haven't encountered any Villagers, Megamans, Links, or Pikachus in For Glory. Perhaps 4 out of the 5 demo characters aren't popular for competitive play?

 

[Ragna22]

I compare this Smash Bros to the Blazblue series, it's one thing to know who you're using but you have to approach every character differently, you can fight a Little Mac and juggle him forever but that same strategy can work against you when fighting say, Bowser, you can try to set up your range tools with someone like Pac-Man and you'll probably have an easy time doing that against say Ganondorf but a Samus player will make things more complicated if you try the same thing against her and boy are you in for a tricky fight if you decide to use Megaman against Palutena.

I don't think these match ups are impossible for either side but if you understand what you should and shouldn't be doing against a certain character who has ways of countering your typical strategy then you're going to get destroyed without a plan.