Dr. Mario doesn't feel like Mario in
his game either. Just saying.
And really, there's nothing different about Paper Mario that can't be said about SMRPG Mario or M&L Mario; it's simply
Mario but in RPG format. And thus, there are aspects such as partners, items, etc. that give the impression that it isn't just plain ol' Mario.
Granted, the Paper Mario series has
some aspects where it emphasizes the "Paper" part of the title, such as TTYD's Paper abilities (which are rather pointless for Smash outside the Plane being used for a glide) and Sticker Star in general, but when it boils down to it; it's still basic Mario. Much like Toon Link is just basic Toon Link who happens to be in a different artstyle and has games that sometimes take advantage of said artsyle and proportions.
And frankly, even as Paper state, he can copy the standard Mario.
Fireballs? Check.
Cape? Well, if Dr. Mario can be given a copy from nowhere....though alternatively, Papes could use his trusty Hammer to reflect projectiles back to sender instead (kind of like in M&L).
Super Jump Punch?
Mario Tornado? There's the "Spin Dash" from the 64 game...
...though Mario has F.L.U.D.D. now, doesn't he?
Ironically enough, Sticker Star introduced a perfect substitution.
Think about it; like how Mario charges F.L.U.D.D., Paper Mario shakes the Soda Can. Then can fire a stream of soda when ready (though it looks like
water in Sticker Star). Just like how its used in-game.
The point I'm trying to make here is, just because Paper Mario has stuff to work with to give him a 100% unique style (which mainly delves on using various partners and items) doesn't mean he's exempt from being a potential clone due to being who he is; Mario in a different artstyle.
Especially since unlike most clones in Smash already, Paper Mario has
clear clone options (more so than I believed before this discussion; I wasn't expecting to find a legitimate substitute for F.L.U.D.D.) that are just as part of his "infinite potential" as everything else.
Hence
why I don't follow the "he can do
this" logic that was applied to Toon Link prior to Brawl; Sakurai has proven time and time again that alternate versions of existing characters are just going to be semi-clones at best regardless of their potential. With Sheik and Zero Suit Samus being the sole exceptions due to being mid-game transformations as I've explained already.
And hence
why I see the choice between Dr. Mario and Paper Mario being just a matter of personal taste; no matter which one it is, it's an extremely high chance they're going to be a Mario clone/semi-clone. I just happen to prefer Dr. Mario due to being my Melee main and because I have more of a connection with the Dr. Mario franchise than the Paper Mario franchise.
You said something that I didn't expect to be said because for me, it shouldn't make sense.
Since you asked…
REALTALK!!!
I'm going to do this in segments
Dr. Mario doesn't feel like Mario in his game either. Just saying.
And really, there's nothing different about Paper Mario that can't be said about SMRPG Mario or M&L Mario; it's simply Mario but in RPG format. And thus, there are aspects such as partners, items, etc. that give the impression that it isn't just plain ol' Mario.
This is partially true. What is true is that yes smrpg mario, M&L mario and most of the mario including Dr mario DOES feel different to the main mario. What isn't true is saying "there are aspects such as partners, items, etc. that give the impression that it isn't just plain ol' Mario.". How I interpret this is that you're basically claiming that just because he's still mario, even adding something that doesn't even match the mario series, it's still the same character and shouldn't be considered as guaranteed to be unique and his uniqueness would be an "illusion". However, since you're precising you're point, I'm just going to tell you what you said that just seems wrong.
Granted, the Paper Mario series has some aspects where it emphasizes the "Paper" part of the title, such as TTYD's Paper abilities (which are rather pointless for Smash outside the Plane being used for a glide) and Sticker Star in general, but when it boils down to it; it's still basic Mario. Much like Toon Link is just basic Toon Link who happens to be in a different artstyle and has games that sometimes take advantage of said artsyle and proportions.
And frankly, even as Paper state, he can copy the standard Mario.
First , "TTYD's Paper abilities (which are rather pointless for Smash outside the Plane being used for a glide)" just WHAT??? So, not only you're claiming that his ability doesn't make him unique but you're also claiming that they just aren't useful for smash? Do I seriously have to quote some move sets for you to understand that yes you can use them and yes it makes him unique? If we just take the paper ability, we have
- the airplane of course as a possible up b
- the tube as a rolling dodge
- the paper thin as sidestep
- as for the boat, it could be used as swimming animation on the water
Now if you're going to tell that those aren't moves (except the up b), let me remind you that those are JUST the power up. If you consider "paper ability" as "ability that only him as a paper can do", well you have the ultra jump (for me, as a down throw) and the super/ultra hammer where he folds into himself (for me, as a neutral combo and side throw with a special gimmick: if the foe is thrown into someone else, he take some damage). I found also that when he would peels stickers in sticker star would make a good back throw. Also, this is only a part of the potentials but for some reasons, you're ignoring the biggest part: partners. You REALLY need to explain this to me because by saying that it's JUST mario after ignoring big potential is like saying that rosalina isn't unique because I ignored the luma. Seriously, why it doesn't make a difference? It's only in the Paper Mario games that you have those mechanics. Also, this can include an action command gimmicks (yeah that was my second gimmick potential).
Also, yes the fact that he doesn't feel like mario applies to his other iteration. But here, I have my issue again can you do a playstyle and keep it consistent on a whole moveset? To my knowledge, Paper Mario is the one that goes the furthest so this explains why I still said that.
Sorry, but you're point about toon link doesn't tell the full story. Toon link roughly worked the same as link even in his own games. What this means here is that the maximum you could push his potential is ability that only him can do but because he was based on link, playing the same way and feel the same as link, his abilities are quite similar to the main link. In fact do remember that the main reason he was added was because the toon art style became significant enough to warrant consideration but I don't think that you could push his potential beyond the semi clone anyway. In fact, his play style is almost the same as link just modified a little. So, yes his art style IS the main thing that makes him "different" (not by much of course) but claiming that Paper Mario is a toon link case is TOTALLY FALSE! First, the maximum you can push to his potential is easily crushing the semi clone line. Second, you don't play the same as Paper Mario like you would with Mario (I think we can agree that this is the case of most mario like I said above). Third, his abilities aren't similar to mario (mainly due to him coming from an RPG which means different mechanics). Finally, I can agree that the character was based on mario but the RPG mechanics? They ARE mario-esque but do they come from the main mario series canon? That's because it's a branch of the mario series which means the same flavour but represented differently (even to the point of changing the mechanics). Wind waker however is from the main series and the art style is mostly just aesthetic (except the form of toon link being lighter and shorter). In fact, as a semi clone, he would uses items from wind waker but here, the art style doesn't make any difference: the item used is just different which let me remind you that it's still similar to link which uses a lot of items. So, I'm asking this question: How does Paper Mario becomes a toon link case ONLY because of the different art style? Because that's not JUST because of the art style that he's unique.
And frankly, even as Paper state, he can copy the standard Mario.
Fireballs? Check.
Cape? Well, if Dr. Mario can be given a copy from nowhere....though alternatively, Papes could use his trusty Hammer to reflect projectiles back to sender instead (kind of like in M&L).
Super Jump Punch?
Mario Tornado? There's the "Spin Dash" from the 64 game...
...though Mario has F.L.U.D.D. now, doesn't he?
Ironically enough, Sticker Star introduced a perfect substitution.
Think about it; like how Mario charges F.L.U.D.D., Paper Mario shakes the Soda Can. Then can fire a stream of soda when ready (though it looks like
water in Sticker Star). Just like how its used in-game.
The point I'm trying to make here is, just because Paper Mario has stuff to work with to give him a 100% unique style (which mainly delves on using various partners and items) doesn't mean he's exempt from being a potential clone due to being who he is; Mario in a different artstyle.
Especially since unlike most clones in Smash already, Paper Mario has
clear clone options (more so than I believed before this discussion; I wasn't expecting to find a legitimate substitute for F.L.U.D.D.) that are just as part of his "infinite potential" as everything else.
Hence
why I don't follow the "he can do
this" logic that was applied to Toon Link prior to Brawl; Sakurai has proven time and time again that alternate versions of existing characters are just going to be semi-clones at best regardless of their potential. With Sheik and Zero Suit Samus being the sole exceptions due to being mid-game transformations as I've explained already.
And hence
why I see the choice between Dr. Mario and Paper Mario being just a matter of personal taste; no matter which one it is, it's an extremely high chance they're going to be a Mario clone/semi-clone. I just happen to prefer Dr. Mario due to being my Melee main and because I have more of a connection with the Dr. Mario franchise than the Paper Mario franchise.
I think should have been more clear earlier because you don't seem to understand why I keep repeating "infinite potential"
I was already proven that he COULD be a clone (that was even discussed in his thread which I am the op). Now, let me say my thing with less bias: If you consider ALL his potential, I agree that you CAN make him as a clone. However, what you would need to know is that it wouldn't make any sense. In fact, you're using the Ganondorf case are you? I agree that it's quite the random character to do this but now, there's 2 main issues that makes that if he ever ended up being a clone or semi clone, Sakurai would've contradicted himself. Here's a the motivation behind Ganondorf being a clone:
Ganondorf was the last character added to the game. He was only included because he was popular, had a similar body type to Captain Falcon, and because Sakurai couldn't really think of any additional plausible clones.
Source:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37915502&postcount=7506
Ok, just this would be very contradictory. Paper Mario has only one character that has a similar body type and it's mr game & watch. Even there, mr game & watch represent how the systems were animated by lcd and to reflect this, he was made 2d and have frame by frame animation. Paper Mario is the complete opposite; he's very fluid (folds into a tube) and it's not perfectly 2d there's a 3d like when he would use super/ultra hammer but yes he's mostly 2d. So, the motivation behind ganondorf wouldn't match him so, let's try the one with dr mario:
Dr. Mario made sense for a few reasons: he's from a critically-acclaimed retro game, the team wanted to include his music, and because a doctor would probably be on hand at an event as violent as Smash Bros.
Despite being... kinda weird but I think most people knew about the music part. What I'm interested here isn't that it has nothing to do with Paper Mario but that do you see something that seems odd about the motivations? I can tell you: It sounds like they wanted to add clones for the sake of having more characters (read more on the source above). In fact, melee became to a point where they just wanted to add characters (I don't have any source so if someone knows where it was told, please, send the link to me but I know it can be proven).
So, let's get back to your point. What does this all have to with Paper Mario? It has to do with the fact that Ganondorf and dr mario were deliberately made as clone/semi clone to just have more characters. But today, the game already has a bigger roster than melee so now, there's no real reason to add new clone. The only one that has a reason are those who were present before like dr mario.
So now, I repeat a lot "infinite potential" right? there's 2 reasons for it. 1: it directly counters the fact that he's JUST another mario and 2: because it's crazy what you can do with him. You deliberately tried to make a clone moveset while in the end, accepting this would mean that I would have just contradicted myself. I said this earlier when talking about dr mario:
You would need to have a "signature" or play style that would feel natural for him so that it would translate pretty well.
So, here's my question: does the "signature" or playstyle you claim would feel natural for him and translate pretty well in ssb4? That's the main problem I have: it doesn't because he clearly doesn't play like mario. I'm talking about a playstyle that would look like this "light but quite versatile in every situation". So, how does playing like mario feels natural for him? Since it makes no sense for him to be a clone or semi clone now, how can he have hight chance to be now? Sakurai even said that he can't bring all the character back even if he'll try to add as much as he can so, how could he seriously waste an entire gigantic potential and development time that he needs for a simple clone?
I just don't understand your point. In fact, the "JUST another mario" argument overshadows his true potential. It leads to the belief that he's a toon link case while he's far beyond that. It's frustrating that such an argument exists because people judge a book by its cover. I'm telling you it just can't be a clone because if it would happens, it would be intentional and it wouldn't even follow how the character play at all.
DISCLAIMER: this wall of text was big IMO and so, if I sated things as fact, do consider that those are interpretation of them and so, not undeniable.
That's it. Sorry for the late reply but school takes priority over big argument.
.JPG/450px-2-1_(13).JPG)
