Casual Play needs balancing too.

[Koopaul]

Something I've realized about some people on the competitive side of Smash (not all but some) is belief that there really doesn't need to be patches and balancing for things like Final Smashes or stage hazards or items. I saw a video of someone saying that the patches to characters Final Smashes didn't really matter. Why would it? It's not competitive so who cares right? Wrong. Even casual play needs to be done right and deserves touching up and balancing.

Ask anyone who plays Mario Kart what they think of the Blue Shell. Or the Mario Party series' 1 VS 3 minigames where one side has an enormous advantage. Those games are considered casual but that doesn't mean you can put in whatever crazy thing you want and not expect players to get frustrated. Casual fun needs balancing too. Otherwise people won't be having fun. Now this is all subjective, some people like the Blue Shell. But a lot of people just find it overall annoying. The best they could do is make the Blue Shell very rare. But this isn't about Mario Kart, this is about Smash.

Over the years non-competitive stages and items got more and more wild and unrestrained. There's been a ton of new stages with just an insane amount of chaos going on. And then you throw in items that can pretty much kill someone instantly into the mix. And I personally think that it gets to a point where it's so chaotic that you lose yourself and it stops being as fun. Imagine if in Mario Kart a storm of Blue Shells rained from the sky and just hit random racers. That's what Smash has become on the casual side.

I think it's because of the culture around Smash. This huge divide between casual and competitive. There's this idea that one side needs all the polish and the other side you can do whatever you want. The options to turn things off helps, but it makes the experience more shallow. I don't want to turn off the Hammer, I want the Hammer to be more reliable and not quite as overpowered. I don't want to turn off the transformations in Kalos Pokemon League. I just don't want to be bombarded with deadly attacks. Etc. Etc.

Point being, even casual play needs to take care in order for it to be enjoyable. I know it's subjective and that makes balancing hard. Balancing casual experience is not based on whats fair or competitively viable, and instead on enjoyability vs frustration. Everyone is different and enjoyablility will vary. But I think there is a commonality between us. That sweet spot of fun where everyone can be happy.

Either way, what are your thoughts on this?

 

[meleebrawler]

While I do agree that players around here, when trying to discuss gameplay ideas that would improve Smash, only look at things that would benefit competitive players while treating casual play as an afterthought at best, there is a reason there's not much balancing going on for stages and items.

All you have to do is turn off the items and stages you deem too chaotic or unfun. Stages also have that hazard toggle now, and even if you must play with all items on, you can reduce their frequency to make them at least somewhat easier to play around. By contrast, you can't just switch off characters unless it's Smashdown, so of course the get the bulk of the balancing work: they are the one constant no matter how your choose to play.

You also kind of contradicted yourself when describing how some players would get annoyed by item frequency in Mario Kart and others don't. There is no definitive sweet spot for "balanced chaos" because what that is exactly is, as you put it, subjective. You can tweak Gust Bellows all you want, rebalance all the battering items etc., but why go through all that effort when all a player who does not like them has to do is turn them off?

 

[Koopaul]

I actually do think there is a balance. If Mario Kart randomly had your kart explode do you think anyone would enjoy that game? Too much chaos can get in the way of having fun. When you don't feel like you have any control in the outcome of a game you start to feel like you aren't playing a game at all. Things are just happening and you're just a part of it.

Mario Kart actually does have balanced chaos (although I personally feel it could use some a little more balancing) Depending on what place you're in you'll get better items. Someone in last place can get a Bullet Bill or Star to help them catch up. If Mario Kart was pure random chaos then people in 1st would get Bullet Bills too. Its all about making everyone happy. If the person in last place kept getting bombarded with bombs and stuff they'd be miserable. But the Mario Kart team knew to make sure the person struggling is going to have fun too.

As for adjusting the frequency of items, that doesn't matter. My critisms of the items aren't their frequency it how they work. I want to use these items but they have another layer of chaos over them. It's not enough that item spawns are random but then you get stuff like the Hammer head falling off or the Lightning Bolt shrinking you instead of your opponent. Why do that? Does anyone think that's fun? What if you were in last place and you finally grab that hammer thinking this will help and the head falls off. You'd be pissed!

Regardless. They still patched some Final Smashes in version 8.0 to be more effective. And it's important to do that. Some Final Smashes are just pathetic. So yes, they are trying to balance the chaotic elements of Smash. But I feel it needs far more than that. I'd like it if it were atleast on the level if Mario Kart.

 

[meleebrawler]

If you make it so items always spawn for the losing player, doesn't that change the strategy to "gang up on the weaker player and steal/deny his stuff"?

 

[Koopaul]

If you make it so items always spawn for the losing player, doesn't that change the strategy to "gang up on the weaker player and steal/deny his stuff"?

No it would have to work differently in Smash. I was thinking that the power of the item changes by who is winning and who is losing. The Hammer is weaker for those who have more stocks and it's stronger for those who have less stocks. It would be like the Rage Blaster but for stocks instead being based on damage, and it would apply to every item. Even Pokéballs would spawn weaker or stronger Pokémon depending on who is winning or losing.

That's just my idea.

 

[meleebrawler]

No it would have to work differently in Smash. I was thinking that the power of the item changes by who is winning and who is losing. The Hammer is weaker for those who have more stocks and it's stronger for those who have less stocks. It would be like the Rage Blaster but for stocks instead being based on damage, and it would apply to every item. Even Pokéballs would spawn weaker or stronger Pokémon depending on who is winning or losing.

That's just my idea.

And you trust the players not to abuse this by killing themselves at the start of the game to immediately make items stronger for themselves and weaker for everyone else? Because that used to be a strategy in older Mario Kart games (hang back in lower spots, particularly at the start where gaps in lead aren't as wide), called sandbagging, until 8 made it so items were no longer determined purely by position but rather distance from the leader.

 

[Koopaul]

Because it would be too risky. You kill yourself a bunch to get 1 stock just so that items can be a bit stronger? Items that the opponent can still grab and use against you? This isn't Mario Kart where you can easily catch up and take the lead. You just lost all your stocks at the beginning of the match while everyone else still has 4 or more. It'd be suicide. It's no guarantee you'll get that item. The spawns are random. Your opponent can still grab a hammer and hit you. It'd just be a little weaker.

 

[meleebrawler]

Because it would be too risky. You kill yourself a bunch to get 1 stock just so that items can be a bit stronger? Items that the opponent can still grab and use against you? This isn't Mario Kart where you can easily catch up and take the lead. You just lost all your stocks at the beginning of the match while everyone else still has 4 or more. It'd be suicide. It's no guarantee you'll get that item. The spawns are random. Your opponent can still grab a hammer and hit you. It'd just be a little weaker.

Then we run into the opposite issue where this isn't much of a comeback mechanic at all, especially if you have to be really far behind to notice the effects. You also run into the issue where some items simply cannot be meaningfully weakened, or would at least require a mammoth amount of undertaking and testing that can all be rendered moot by a player simply switching them off.

There has been RNG in the items themselves since 64: Pokeball Pokemon of course, including the useless Goldeen plus boxes, barrels and capsules that may or may not explode when you hit or throw them, to say nothing of the horror stories we all know about striking an errant Bob-omb that wasn't there a second ago. It's nothing new and consistent with the items were designed to do in Smash: create chaos. And chaos does not care about winners or losers.

 

[Koopaul]

I still don't think you see the difference between some chaos and an overload of chaos. It was never as chaotic as it was now. Now the screen could be covered in a mess of hazards, explosions, or giant dog head covering the screen. You can die and not even know why you died. There have been cases from the second the game starts a player could constantly be bombarded by everything and they aren't even playing the game at that point because they keep getting caught in an explosion. I once saw my friend put his controller down after a minute in saying "it won't even let me play." Who wants that?

Sure you can just turn things off to adjust the levels of chaos. But then you'd be turning of some of the most fun items because of how unreliable and crazy they are. Assist Trophies is a cool idea. Get to have some more video game stars in on the action. Who wouldn't want Bomberman on their side? Oh wait. You got Nintendog and now the entire screen is covered and no one can see what they're doing. That's not the same as Goldeen. The consequences of getting Goldeen is that nothing happens. The consequences of getting Skull Kid is that the screen flips upsidedown!

Look, my suggestion to weaken or strengthen items for winner or losers was just a random idea that I'm not commited too. The point I'm trying to get across is that chaos is only fun to a point. I believe Smash went overboard. And items that would have been fun aren't because they are either too unreliable or too overpowered or too dangerous for everyone.

 

[meleebrawler]

Well, it was in Melee we started getting things like Togepi turning the entire screen pitch-black and hammerheads falling off. Are you trying to say only 64 had a good item selection?

 

[Koopaul]

I would say it's the most balanced item game in the series. And I'm not the only one who says that. The Hammer turns you into killing machine, but also limits your mobility. The Homerun Bat can send opponents flying, but the wind up is slow so it's hard to land.

Melee was the start of things going downhill. But I think those were tolerable because they were rare. People can tolerate misfortune to a point. Something bad could happen but as long as you can still pick yourself up and get back in the game then it's fine. When you play a video game you want to feel like you have some control. Some way to overcome the problems that may occur. If you feel like you don't have much control then it's not really much of a game.

Even in casinos they design the machines to make it feel like you can win. When my friend first got Ultimate we decided to just play a Free For All with default settings just to experience. After one match we came to a unanimous decision: it was awful. But last year we decided to have a Smash Through the Ages and played 64. And we had a good time with items.

Maybe it was nostalgia. I don't know. But the chaos wasn't overbearing. It was just the right amount to be fun.

 

[Balance ssbu]

Ive been saying that they need to stop balancing the game around the best this game has to offer. Its the equivalent to if they balanced it around the worse this game had to offer. You’re forgetting about like 90% of your community thats struggling to keep up in an environment designed and balanced around people who have 8 hrs a day to spend on smash ‍