Captain Falcon: The bad outweighs the good...

[Mann]

Verily, Falcon doesn't suck. The game's barely been out long enough to judge that. Just play with him more. Practice, practice, practice. He's just as good as everyone else, maybe even a little bit better. Just figure out how to play your cards.

It's like your basing your opinion off of combo vids and not actual gameplay. Falcon in Melee had a tough time against characters that were higher tier, with good reason. It just came down to the players themselves who tried their best to bring their skill out of Capt. Falcon.

You say Falcon does not suck. And yet many people will disagree. You say practice practice pratice, he's just as good as everyone else. You say just figure out how to play your cards.

This is about Capt. Falcon, not about the player. Most of his disavantages have been talked about.

As for Kev.

People don't have to play 200 matches with Capt. Falcon to find out who he is. When people play as Capt. Falcon and find out lots of moves from most characters have priority over his, they cry. You keep putting in assumptions in what you type. Capt. Falcon did not shred every character in Melee. It was the player.

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything but it's really annoying when people come in here and bash Falcon when they don't know what they are talking about AT ALL.

Don't assume.

We ALL know he's fun to play. You may type up a lot of words, but the fact remains that Capt. Falcon's disadvantages outweigh his advantages when it comes out to comparing him to other characters, equal skill, and 'fair' gameplay.

As for the comment that you believe that huge characters won't be able to do well, you're way off. DK's Bair, Uair, Punch. B+UP. Bowser's B+ UP, Bair. Forward + B, Down + B, Dsmash. etc. Again, follow what you say about bashing and not knowing what they are talking about.

 

[KeyKid19]

The thing you are missing is that Falcon's playstyle is not like the other characters in Brawl. Generally, every other character is able to be picked up by anyone and played pretty decently. The skilled players who master these characters will become better than their casual counterparts of course and that's part of the game. However, the difference in ability between a casual Mario and a pro Mario is a lot less than the gap between a casual Falcon and a pro Falcon. 95% of the people who come here and say he sucks really don't know how to play as him in Brawl. They go Fair Fair Fair Fair Fair and get owned and then come here and cry. You may not be one of those people and I certainly hope you are not, but I still stand behind my statement that "it's really annoying when people come in here and bash Falcon when they don't know what they are talking about AT ALL." He isn't the best. I've said this before and I'll say it here again: he never was the best and he still isn't now. However, I sincerely believe that a great Falcon player can play with the great players of other characters. The game appears to be balanced in such a way that generally every character CAN be competitive with every other character. There are certainly some glaring exceptions (Falcon vs. Olimar and really Olimar vs. most people) but for the most part everyone has their weak points. Does Falcon have more weak points than other characters? Maybe. But when you use his strong points well they are stronger than other characters' strong points. Falcon has more speed than the heavyweights and otherwise is just like them because he can kill early and is hard to kill. He has the qualities of a heavyweight but with a MUCH smaller frame. The only other characters like that in Brawl are Snake and Ike but they are significantly slower than Falcon though granted more powerful. And yes, I say that big characters can't do well. You say Falcon is good due to the player's skill and not his own, but the big characters are definitely more in line with that than he is. They can punish through mindgames but other than that they are weak, thereby making them average/below average characters. Falcon's speed and recovery advantages over the big guys are what sets him apart. And those things AREN'T made good by players, they are already there in Falcon.

Falcon does have disadvantages in priority and reach over the top players, but by and large I think that equally talented players can have solid competitive matches with Falcon vs. *insert character here*. Every character comes down to player skill in order to be great. I think you're overexaggerating the gap between the characters in Brawl though.

Did I make assumptions that turned out to be incorrect about who you are as a Falcon player? Yes. I'll admit a mistake on my part. 95% of the time my assumptions about Falcon haters are right though, and you fell into the 5%. My bad.

 

[Mann]

I don't care about the assumptions being incorrect. Just don't do it. I've read every post here in this thread, and there's nothing that shows me that people do not understand anything about Falcon.

"Falcon's play style is not li who has the most advantage/ least disadvantage over the other would most likely win.ke other characters in Brawl." You can say that for each and every single one. Why? Because it's the player behind the character that defines the play style. But again, in this thread, we are not talking about players skills, but comparing Falcon to other characters in terms of priority, advantages and disadvantages, the statistics. If there were two players with the exact same skill, the character

Yes, a "great" Falcon player can probably best out a mediocre Mario. But that same "great" Falcon player might even have trouble vs. a mediocre Metaknight. But that's always situational.

 

[HenryMartinez]

THIS!

IS!

BRAWL!

srsly guys, Brawl is a slower game now, it's not this lightning fast game that was Melee. in the end, like Mann said, it's all situational. yes, I digress here, but it's about the player, not the character.

metagame ftw.

 

[KeyKid19]

I don't agree that a mediocre Metaknight could beat a good Falcon. If you know Metaknight you can beat him because you can gimp the tornado and you can outrange his ground moves.

Also I'm not necessarily talking about idiots in this thread, I'm talking about around this board in general. Anyone who posts "Falcon sucks." and says nothing else or nothing to justify their opinion is who my comments were aimed at. Now we even have a Rick Roller amongst us so that just further proves my point. If someone think Falcon sucks then I'd love to hear their thoughts on him as long as they provide some evidence of having actually played more than 5 minutes with him. I know you say that time played has nothing to do with it but I think it does because you can't discover what to do against each character without playing many matches.

 

[Ayato]

It's like your basing your opinion off of combo vids and not actual gameplay. Falcon in Melee had a tough time against characters that were higher tier, with good reason. It just came down to the players themselves who tried their best to bring their skill out of Capt. Falcon.

You say Falcon does not suck. And yet many people will disagree. You say practice practice pratice, he's just as good as everyone else. You say just figure out how to play your cards.

This is about Capt. Falcon, not about the player. Most of his disavantages have been talked about.

How can it be like basing my opinion off combo vids as opposed to actual gameplay? Explain, please. I could substantiate my opinions on Falcon's playability with specific examples from my play experience, but I felt like an overview was all that was needed to convey my point.

I did admit that many people disagree with me, read the first line of my post. Don't see where you're coming from on that.

I might have misinterpreted your post entirely. I mean, I honestly don't see the message that you're trying to convey. I vaguely understand it to be, "You digress, and Falcon as a character is plagued with disadvantages. Maybe players can make him better but that's not for this topic, so stop trying to bring it here."

Back on topic.

I really don't see his cons grossly outweighing his advantages. I suppose if you consider Falcon's natural ability in a thoughtless, full-on brawl then he would likely get wrecked by most characters, sure. But that's not how he was meant to be played, and nobody is dumb enough to do that anyway. His speed, while it seems a little slower to me, still puts him ahead of most of his gimped moves, at least in my opinion and experience. The uselessness of the Falcon Kick, mediocrity of the up+b, added difficulty to nair comboing from the ground, and the further decrease in the priority of Raptor Boost still don't outweigh his insane capacity for mind games. In my play experience so far, Falcon plays fine if you can manage spacing, utilize bairs and uairs to their fullest, take advantage of the stutter step, and use platforms to assist his approach.

Like Marth, his priority lies keeping the opponent above him. His air game is still excellent when you can keep the opponent above your head (uair and/or nair combo into bair or fair). I find that his uairs and bairs are still disgustingly powerful kill tools, and even without the knee and nair in Falcon's spammable arsenal he can still compete with pesky MKs and Marths. Player skill aside, just about anyone familiar with Falcon's moveset will eventually recognize this. He does carry a hefty amount of disadvantages this time around, but I don't think they're weighty enough to force a player to play against his character more than his opponent.

I'll complete and reorganize these thoughts later as I'm pressed for time, but yeah, that's the jist of my take on Falcon so far. Mind, I haven't had the opportunity to play against more than a handful of decent smashers yet, though.

 

[KeyKid19]

Avato hit the nail on the head: Falcon is not as good as in Melee but is not terrible by any means. Like I've said many times, his speed sets him apart from everyone else. Sonic is faster but not even close in terms of strength so really you've got the epitome of speed mixed with power here. Also Falcon is number 5 on the weight chart I believe (and if not 5 he's 6) so add that to speed and strength and he's got three great qualities that have nothing to do with player skill.

 

[Runeblade279]

Keykid, you are quite right. He still has weight, speed, and power on his side, it's what's made falcon the bullet train that he's always been.

I think the reason so many are discouraged is that he handles so drastically differently in brawl.

If Falcon is a bullet train, then in brawl he got a new engine, steering system, brakes, topped off with a new polish.

It's WEIRD to use at first, but as I continue playing.. I'm feeling my falcon groove again. There's the hard matchups always, but I become more and more adjusted to the new falcon with each passing day, I have absolute confidence he'll be a force to be reckoned with, despite his difficulty of usage.

 

[Mann]

I think it's important to realize that, what with advanced techniques in the last game, Falcon was god **** near BROKEN as a character. Characters that were extraordinary in the last game, as a whole, seem to have needed much more nerfing in order to balance the game.

"Connection has timed out." fails.

Saying that Falcon was near broken in Melee doesn't really say much about him. Nor does it say much about the experience you have had with him in Melee. People that played Capt. Falcon, knew that they had to practice to get where they wanted to go. Same goes for every character out there. I can say that Fox was god **** near broken with advanced techniques. Ganondorf. Marth. Shiek. Samus.

Brawl is not Melee. So let's not bring that again.

I'm not too sure on the message that you guys are bringing in, either. I believe I've repeated myself more times than I noticed that this thread is about Capt. Falcon's disadvantages and advantages. Yet, there are posts about he can still be good if played well, etc. etc. People already know that. We know that majority of the time, people who have practiced more and who are more flexible in situations, are most likely to win over someone hasn't acheived the same level.

I could not give a **** care less about Falcon being worse than he was in Melee. People already knew that the gameplay was going to be slower. Those who played Falcon, have already experienced hard matches against some players, and found lots of disadvantages to him to why people come to the conclusion that Capt. Falcon sucks compared to other characters.

But that's not how he was meant to be played, and nobody is dumb enough to do that anyway. His speed, while it seems a little slower to me, still puts him ahead of most of his gimped moves, at least in my opinion and experience. The uselessness of the Falcon Kick, mediocrity of the up+b, added difficulty to nair comboing from the ground, and the further decrease in the priority of Raptor Boost still don't outweigh his insane capacity for mind games. In my play experience so far, Falcon plays fine if you can manage spacing, utilize bairs and uairs to their fullest, take advantage of the stutter step, and use platforms to assist his approach.

That's better.

Yes, his speed still helps him get to where he needs to go. But that does not mean that it gets him ahead of his 'gimped' moves. When people say Falcon has no approach, it's quite true. Most of his attacks can be shield grabbed, punished, dodged, without that much effort.

All moves are useful if applied when needed. Mind games? That's already been talked about. Those who have higher skill, experience, maybe even patience, will most likely have the upperhand against another player who is not up to par. Okay, cool. Manage spacing. Utilizing Bairs and Uairs, use platforms, people already know this. People have been since SSB64. Hell, if you manage Bairs, Uairs, and use platforms with DK, awesome. But that's situational. The disadvantages/advantages are set.

Yes, Falcon can play fine. There are ways to get around characters. But that still counts for every character in Brawl. I can replace 'Capt. Falcon' with *insert character here* with many statements and give the same idea.

 

[KeyKid19]

It seems that by your logic nearly every character sucks but you never really say that and instead keep saying that Falcon sucks. Every character in Brawl has a long list of advantages and disadvantages when matched up against any other character. The game is REALLY balanced. Once again I think you're overexaggerating the difference between the best character in the game and the worst character in the game. Brawl isn't like Melee where Marth was leagues ahead of Pichu. The difference between character abilities is so small in Brawl so even the worst character can compete with the best character. People don't fear Falcon because there is no one to fear anymore; it's essentially an even playing field. Every character has their own gimp matchup unlike in Melee where no one really gimped Marth.

People keep trying to make blanket statements about characters' abilities in comparison to the competition, but you can't do that anymore. Everything is matchups now and a character's ability can only be judged when juxtaposed to another character, not the collective whole. There is no ultimate character and no crap character. Everything comes down to the players.

 

[Mann]

Are you serious? So it is useless to type on these boards, because no one seems to read.

How is it that going by my logic that every character sucks? Where did I say that Capt. Falcon sucks? You say the game is REALLY balanced. In which way? Stages? Items? Difference between Characters?

Excuse me sir, but I believe we aren't talking about Melee anymore. There are still huge differences between characters in Brawl. There's a reason why tier lists were made. You say that the worst character can beat the 'best' character, yet the majority of what some of you have said during these posts talk about player's abilities.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=97622 How many tournaments have you been to? "People keep trying to make blanket statements about characters' abilities in comparison to the competition, but you can't do that anymore." But then how come people are? Which aren't blanket statements, please give an example. If you're going to talk about competition, at least have an understanding about it.

The fact still stand, again, and again, and again, yet you keep over looking at it. Player's skills and abilities come out situational, while advantages and disadvantages when comparing one character to another, are set. If there were TWO players with equal skill and ability, the character who has more advantages, and less disadvantages to the other, the chances of winning with that character are raised.

If I were to assume, maybe the topic got to a point where people thought that Capt. Falcon is not usable when it comes to just trying to win. Just saying that Capt. Falcon sucks doesn't mean no one should use him, or that he does not have the potential to get up there for players skill.

"i'm going to become rich and famous after i invent a device that allows you to stab people in the face over the internet"

 

[Ayato]

I'm not trying to say Brawl is like Melee. It's just that in discussing the abilities of a character it's handy to have a comparative standpoint. The two games are different because of the contrast, duh. To say that Falcon's game has gotten "slower," you need a point of reference. That's all I'm using Melee for. In no way am I trying to bring Melee into Brawl because people who do that actually annoy me.

Falcon was broken in the last game because he had a finishing move that he could plausibly spam without repercussion in the past game. That is, the knee. With or without advanced techs, anybody who figured out the timing on that thing could play Falcon like a dragoon. Everything about his natural moveset alone set him above the crowd, but the specials are what really brought him down. The only feasible special in the previous game was raptor boost. Once you were off the stage it was practically impossible to recover against a decent player anyway.

And go ahead and have your way about the topic. We'll just slate clean the disadvantages and advantages, sans the discussion. Allow my final contribution to this thread:

PROS:
Powerful moves
Speed
Fall speed now plays into decent juggles

CONS:
Low Priority (save uair)
Range combat gimp
Mediocre recovery/ies
Ground game lacking
Usable moveset is extremely limited when compared to the rest of the game's roster (numerically speaking)
"Show me your moves" taunt got longer (worst of all)


There. The number of cons certainly exceeds the number of pros. In consideration of the weight of each individual pro and con, there really is only a small margin of personal interpretation because it's very clear that, at the most fundamental level, this character has much more of the game working against him than for him. Fine. I'll grant you that.

But I write to at least distract some of the (few) Falcon readers from the negativeness of this thread. Whether or not it personally affects me (when in fact, I know it doesn't), I like to believe that Falcon will be more than just an artifact of awesome jokes and fond memories from the Melee and SSB64 eras. Rather than plague users with the idea that Falcon is strictly a crap character, I'd like to at least point out the reasons why he is still playable (though to most experienced smashers, the terms mindgames, practice, and finesse clearly make just about every character playable).

I'll try to respect where you're coming from throughout this whole digression, but at least share in my effort to bring Falcon back from the novelty smash relic that people are already making him out to be. He's hyped as being unusable and that creates extremely low diversity within the Falcon community, and consequently this impedes the development of his metagame down the road. I'd like to entice at least a handful more users to give Falcon a chance. Then we'll see much more experimentation with him. This game and community both thrive on experimentation.

That was, perhaps, the most I've strayed from this topic as of yet. With that, I'm going to hit the sack and take a step out of this thread. It's done. The disadvantages of Falcon clearly outweigh his advantages at the fundamental level. The OP and Mann are correct.

Let's at least not constantly herald Falcon as useless, though (not that we are, but if the cynicism on this board continues, we're slowly on our way to this). It really doesn't help build a strong base for his development. Sure, we can admit that he's got a lot running against him, but let's not let that turn into his only image.

 

[Mann]

Falcon has potential to be up at the top, correct. Falcon is not useless as people perceive him to be. His Uair is one of the best things still going for him, it's just going to be hard to get him there. Less people will want to use him during competitive play if it involves money, but that still won't stop people playing him. Surely, I'll always still be playing a C. Falcon. The brick wall are his disadvantages, however, to break it down would mean to be able to be more patient in learning how to be more flexible in the situations.

 

[PassWurD]

With Brawl, I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing almost every character used for tournaments / thing's that involve winning money. But hey could just be my opinion

 

[vills]

i dont get the difference between now and b4
i still play really good as him against my friends and cpus
but thats just me.

mains
captain falcon
snake
mario