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Captain Falcon Punish

Hunybear

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2013
Messages
405
Location
Nashville Tennessee
I need Help with my punish game against Captain Falcon.
What i do is down throw tech chase until 40ish% then up throw uptilt to up air chains. I end my combo with nair or Tipper F-smash. Most (almost all) my kills are edge guards. I need help with my punishes on falcon tho so if anyone can give general advice On punishes or just the match up that would help.

HELP ME WITH THIS LIST
  • approaches
  • platform punishes (them above me on lower platform)
  • beating nair
  • Punishing off of grab (up throw in particular)
 
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FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
Approaches: This is such a difficult MU, to be honest. You really touched on the hardest parts of the MU with this post, and I'm so happy. Anyways, while I'm still figuring parts of it out myself, approaches are Marth BnB still. Slippery movement to try and bait out anything, followed by a grab, fair, or dtilt. Not much more to say.

Platform Punishes: BnB again-- utilt or SHFFL uair.

Beating nair: CC grab is my best idea at low %s

Punishing off of grab: Sounds like you've gotten it figured out.

Sorry... I really don't know that much about it.
 

SSB Pride

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 28, 2015
Messages
16
Location
New York
I tend to dash-dance in and out and wait for the CF to make a mistake,

ex : Wiffed Grab / Attack

It works a bit, but try not to do it too often or else they will punish :(
 

outofphase

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 13, 2012
Messages
142
Location
cleveland
Ok, so this is all just in my opinion:

Honestly, just don't swing really at all early on in the game/set. Only the safest of safe swings in the early going, not even really dtilt unless you get them near the ledge. If he doesn't want to play the game of chicken, it works into your favor as you gather data to swing more intelligently and often as it goes on. This applies to a lot of characters, but especially Falcon because of his speed to punish you, but lack of a projectile to safely attack you with. Basically, you don't want to flat out approach him, but you don't want to play too defensively either or he will likely crack your defenses and blow your face apart with his combo game. You have to find the right mix so as to keep them guessing and afraid. If you are getting hits but not converting well, it is likely you are playing too defensively while they are attacking intelligently. At that point, you need to either start reading their approach or actively denying their approach. Denying is much safe than reading, and really what you want to do. I don't just mean stuffing, his moves, I mean positioning such that trades favor you, moving ambiguously so that they feel the need to overshoot, etc.

An example would be DDing at various lengths and ranges, forcing them to overshoot their nair to cover more ground. You then dash forward a bit once you see the jump and shield. They hit their nair high on your shield so you WD towards them which makes them dash away towards the ledge. At this point you get an actually good mixup with favorable odds. They have to make a quick decision on a defensive action since they cannot dash back and you can space an attack to beat any of their attacks. At this point, I would likely fair if I had no read on what they were going to do. Immediate fair is the safest option imo because it is similar or better reward to grabbing depending on percent, but doesn't outright lose to anything Falcon can do. Dtilt loses to jump and grab loses to spotdodge, both potentially reversals . If they jump, the fair hits them, they go into a horrible position from which they will likely die. If they shield it then they are in a much less bad position, but still pretty bad considering Falon's OOS options, especially without WD back. If they spotdodge, they are pretty much frozen into another mixup.


To actually answer the post in a succinct way:

Approaches: don't approach if possible. feign approaches to threaten and force reactions. If you aren't getting the reactions you want, press a bit harder with relatively safe zoning. if that isn't getting it done, add a layer of relatively low-risk approaches like dtilt or simply dash forward. don't approach through the air unless it is very low commitment or very high reward (they are in a bad spot or you have a read) preferably both.

Platform Punishes: I rarely play against players who can shield drop, so I won't really say anything on this. Just know your percents for CCing and have the stuff in the kadano thread about uair through platforms down.

Beating nair: CC if you can, make him hit high on shield if you can, make him over/undershoot with ambiguous movement, try to trade/stuff it if it will favor you, and punish him for getting greedy to discourage its use. Really, Falcon's nair vs. Marth doesn't have very solid counter-play if they use it well, you kind of have to do a lot of little things to help mitigate it. It just has too many upsides vs. Marth to be shut down without a solid multi-dimensional strategy.

Punishing from throws: The goal should always be to get him offstage enough to set up an edgeguard. That is Falcon's most vulnerable position by far. Whatever throw goes furthest towards achieving that goal is the one you want. Juggles are cool, but I will take 30% and an edgeguard over 100% and trying to cover his landing every time. I would rather carry him off the stage with fair/nair or simply hit him off with fsmash asap than juggle, his recovery is just too free, especially on stages with low/no platforms and even if you don't kill, you will likely rack up just as much percent through the edgeguard. Again, know your guaranteed stuff from the kadano thread and remember that a set-up edgeguard is the best punish you can get on Falcon outside of an outright kill.
 

Hunybear

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2013
Messages
405
Location
Nashville Tennessee
outofphase outofphase What would my best option be OOS when he lands a high nair on my shield? When I played on FD I would WD OOS and grab or Pivot nair/fair.
Also when edge guarding I always walk up next to the edge to cover him from grabbing it to force the on stage recovery (if possible) then knock him off. Any advice on limiting recovery options? General advice and Falcon specific.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
outofphase outofphase What would my best option be OOS when he lands a high nair on my shield? When I played on FD I would WD OOS and grab or Pivot nair/fair.
Also when edge guarding I always walk up next to the edge to cover him from grabbing it to force the on stage recovery (if possible) then knock him off. Any advice on limiting recovery options? General advice and Falcon specific.
When Falcon's recovering, watch WHERE he upBs from. If he's aiming for a sweetspot, cover the ledge. If he's going on stage, cut off the route to the ledge before ledgehop uairing him and then just capitalize on that, probably with a full jump bair to continue the edgeguard. He's got such a bad recovery overall, he should be dead if he's offstage and can't upB high.
 

outofphase

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 13, 2012
Messages
142
Location
cleveland
outofphase outofphase What would my best option be OOS when he lands a high nair on my shield? When I played on FD I would WD OOS and grab or Pivot nair/fair.
Also when edge guarding I always walk up next to the edge to cover him from grabbing it to force the on stage recovery (if possible) then knock him off. Any advice on limiting recovery options? General advice and Falcon specific.

Really just depends. I know its not an answer but its complex and there isn't a "best" option all the time. Whatever you think will go the furthest towards getting him to press up-b is the best. If you gave me an example, preferably from a video, I could try to give my thoughts.

Edgeguarding him (and some others like Sheik) effectively is basically contingent on getting him into a loop where he makes no forwards progress. Sometimes you get him into a loop, but he ends up eventually getting out, usually to the ledge or a platform from which you can't sustain the loop (either because he edge cancels, you cant reach him with a strong enough attack, or both). Each one of your hits needs to build upon the last. This can either be by hitting him further away with each hit or keeping him in a position where you can cover all his options until you can hit him with something that will send him further away. The place I see new Marth players often struggle with is that they cover his options, but in such a way that it doesn't build, but rather degrades, so they get to a point where it becomes hard or impossible for them to knock Falcon off the stage again. If he isn't at a high enough percent, you have to manage your edgeguard from an early state so as to create a loop that will most effectively lead to death. If you have multiple options to put him offstage with, you have to choose the one (based on percent/DI/how they excel at recovering/stage) which you think will put them in the worst position. Often, you won't really have a choice, so you will just be taking what you can get. Luckily, that is usually a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWsBVTBzl4o

This is Cactuar's set vs. S2J from HTC. I will try and give concrete example with time marks and such.

0:00-0:04- You can see gets the fsmash read and sets up an edgeguard almost immediately. S2J is at low percent and jumps in such a way that he could either go high with up-b, or try to use his drift to get the ledge. Cactuar doesn't have time to cover both, so its either he covers the ledge or covers high. If S2J goes high and he covers the ledge, S2J gets back on the stage at fairy low percent and has likely reset to a relatively neutral state. If S2J goes high and he covers high, S2J is likely eating a ken combo. If S2J goes ledge and he covers ledge, S2J is most likely going to be put into an inescapable loop based on his position/percent and on top of that, may not have good DI since he is trying to control his drift. Lastly, If Cactuar covers high and S2J goes for the ledge, he likely gets it. This jump by S2J was very good. He basically forces a 50/50 guess of either death or recovery, pretty good odds given the circumstances, while keeping himself far enough from the stage to be clipped.

Cactuar tries to jab to cover the ledge, not a bad play. If it hits, it puts S2J in prime position for a big hit which will be extremely hard to avoid without his double jump and likely put away the stock. Its also not as risky as fsmash or ftilt, allowing him to more quickly position himself should S2J go high. It also covers more space than dtilt, although is higher risk. Unfortunately, it also has less range than fsmash or ftilt and S2J manages to drift around it to the ledge. Really, dtilt was the best move to use if he wanted the low-risk ledge-covering option, but it isn't as easy to hit and doesn't push Falcon into as bad of a spot. Ultimately, I can't find much fault in a jab though, sometimes you just get your good countered with their good and he still is in a great position.

Alright so I am kinda tired of writing this, but I will continue it later and try to get to some examples that involve the loop if somebody wants.
 
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Hunybear

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2013
Messages
405
Location
Nashville Tennessee
Edgeguarding him (and some others like Sheik) effectively is basically contingent on getting him into a loop where he makes no forwards progress.
(I don't have my set recorded sorry) This makes a lot of sense because whenever i got into the edge guard position we'd get into loops and he'd always recover in a way that prevented my jab / Dtilt from clipping him. For the most part all my kills were from getting Falcon into this edge guard loop and finishing with a Edge hog or raising Bair. I find myself in this position with Sheik a lot as well.
I figured keeping him in the loop always had me in the advantageous position but i felt as if i was doing something wrong seeing as how i normally just gimp Falcon. He was very watchful for those options and i wasn't use to this aspect of the game. Next time we play i'll be more confident going in.
This is a recent video of falcon "moist" I was wondering if anyone could point out some things you notice about his play style that i could exploit. (not me playing)
 
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