Captain Falcon Match-up thread (Show me yo feels)

[Berserker.]

vs

Discuss

No disruptive posting pleeease. Thanks

 

[Linkmario00]

So, Shulk vs C.Falcon. What an interesting MU.
I think using Speed isn't very useful. In fact, the only thing I can imagine Speed can advantage vs Falcon is doing Amazing pivot grabs, but they are quite predictable and the opponent can do a little dash and cover a big distance with Falcon's dash grab before we can pivot and punish us. If I try to approach with a Nair th Captain is Always capable to outspeed my Nair with one hit of his Nair and start combos.
So I normally start the match with Jump beacuse I can easily connect a lot of moves in the air with that. The problem is hit with the first move: Falcon can just rest on the ground and dodge our fastfall aerials and be able to punish them.
Buster is probably the best option facing a Falcon IMHO, at least when he is above 30-40%. With Buster I can do crazy stuff on th Captain thanks to the ending lag of a lot of his moves. Normally I can do 50% to 60% just spamming Nair to jab, and if you're lucky you can read the opponent and get some UpTilt to Air slash.
At this point of the match you can go to Smash for an easy kill, but probably you already have an high percentage so, considering Falcon speed he probably will kill you with Smash on. So I decide to use Shield to survive a bit amount of time, but it's very difficult to land an attack with shield on vs Captain Falcon. Probably you will be knocked out of the stage and there you can't do very much against Falcon's edgeguarding before you're capable to switch to Jump and try to recovery.
So I guess this MU is a -1 for Shulk.

 

[Berserker.]

So, Shulk vs C.Falcon. What an interesting MU.
I think using Speed isn't very useful. In fact, the only thing I can imagine Speed can advantage vs Falcon is doing Amazing pivot grabs, but they are quite predictable and the opponent can do a little dash and cover a big distance with Falcon's dash grab before we can pivot and punish us. If I try to approach with a Nair th Captain is Always capable to outspeed my Nair with one hit of his Nair and start combos.

You're playing speed incorrectly then if you relegate it all down to n-air and approaching. Do NOT approach with speed. Actually, don't approach at all with Shulk. Speed is much better if you bait approaches then rush in at the right time

So I normally start the match with Jump beacuse I can easily connect a lot of moves in the air with that. The problem is hit with the first move: Falcon can just rest on the ground and dodge our fastfall aerials and be able to punish them.

Don't be predictable with your aerials. Your options with jump don't all come down to FF aerials. You either empty hop, FF then grab or cross up with an aerial (n-air or b-air). Learn how to play around with your opponents with your aerial mobility. I'd usually use jump for off-stage purposes though

Buster is probably the best option facing a Falcon IMHO, at least when he is above 30-40%. With Buster I can do crazy stuff on th Captain thanks to the ending lag of a lot of his moves. Normally I can do 50% to 60% just spamming Nair to jab, and if you're lucky you can read the opponent and get some UpTilt to Air slash.

I'd agree with this but I think speed also works really well. You need to run away and go back and forth against Falcon with speed. You need that additional mobility to catch up with him

Probably you will be knocked out of the stage and there you can't do very much against Falcon's edgeguarding before you're capable to switch to Jump and try to recovery.

You should be capable of switching to jump before getting wrecked so that Falcon's edgeguarding would be less of a problem

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyway.... This is the POV of Shulk again.

Shulk's range allows him to keep Falcon off his zone. I'd rather zone Falcon out in this match up because you DO NOT want to allow him to enter your zone. I'd say speed and buster work really well in this match up as long as you have a mindset of zoning Falcon out. A common mistakes Shulks do against Falcon is that they rush in and try to fight him at close quarters. You shouldn't do that at all. Falcon will likely outspeed Shulk's attacks and he'll rack up a lot of damage from whatever strings or combos he does on Shulk.

You'd want to focus on using the range on n-air to actually keep Falcon out. I'd say f-air but the landing lag makes it really risky to use. Falcon can punish the landing lag with dash grab really easily unless you have speed art on and you're retreating while you're using f-air. N-air works REALLY well in this match up. It covers a huge amount of area around Shulk, and it has low landing lag. Another great option against Falcon is pivoting f-tilt or f-smash. Whenever they try to break into your zone, you can throw out pivot f-tilt/f-smash to get them off (f-tilt and f-smash deal a lot of damage btw. Especially in buster). Don't ignore your ground tilts in this match up. D-tilt and f-tilt are useful in this match up. They've got good disjointed range and they deal good amount of damage (not much in speed but in buster, they deal a LOT of damage). U-tilt should only be used when Falcon is above you, obviously.

If you're using speed art, you should use your mobility to maintain a distance between you and Falcon. You're not suppose to close in unless there's an opening to capitalize on. If you're using buster art, you shouldn't be moving THAT much. Your main focus is to zone out Falcon while he tries to rush you down. If he's trying to bait you, try closing in a bit. You should still maintain a good distance between yourself and Captain Falcon. From that point, it's all n-airs, and tilts.

Shield art shouldn't be used that much. Falcon hits hard so you're still likely to be sent off stage even with the weight increase. Smash art is risky to use. Jump art is useful in the match up especially when Falcon is sent off stage. Falcon's recovery is one of his notable weaknesses. It's easy to gimp and well... jump art... you can gimp with jump easily.

I think Shulk's range is a huge asset in this match up. It really helps in keeping Falcon off Shulk's zone despite Falcon's insane mobility. Take note that you can also switch up your arts to gain either more mobility or more damage output. The main issue here is really the amount of damage Falcon can do once he's at an advantage because it's insane. The main problem though is that Falcon is really bad at a disadvantage since his falling speed makes him susceptible to speed and jump combos.

Also, vision works well in this match up. Since most of Falcon's attacks hit hard (not Bowser hard), you can KO him at fairly percentages with vision/forward vision. Yes. You can forward counter Falcon's u-air in shield art and STILL KILL HIM

tldr: Mid-range. Take advantage of your range. Speed/buster is good. Don't approach at all. Respect his jab and dash grab.

So... I think this is +1 Shulk imo

 

[Linkmario00]

You're playing speed incorrectly then if you relegate it all down to n-air and approaching. Do NOT approach with speed. Actually, don't approach at all with Shulk. Speed is much better if you bait approaches then rush in at the right time

Don't be predictable with your aerials. Your options with jump don't all come down to FF aerials. You either empty hop, FF then grab or cross up with an aerial (n-air or b-air). Learn how to play around with your opponents with your aerial mobility. I'd usually use jump for off-stage purposes though

Yeah, you're right about the speed, but Falcon is still the second faster charatcher (third with Speed Shulk) so he
can use the same tactics AGAINST you. You're completely right about jump, though.

I'd agree with this but I think speed also works really well. You need to run away and go back and forth against Falcon with speed. You need that additional mobility to catch up with him

You should be capable of switching to jump before getting wrecked so that Falcon's edgeguarding would be less of a problem

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyway.... This is the POV of Shulk again.

Shulk's range allows him to keep Falcon off his zone. I'd rather zone Falcon out in this match up because you DO NOT want to allow him to enter your zone. I'd say speed and buster work really well in this match up as long as you have a mindset of zoning Falcon out. A common mistakes Shulks do against Falcon is that they rush in and try to fight him at close quarters. You shouldn't do that at all. Falcon will likely outspeed Shulk's attacks and he'll rack up a lot of damage from whatever strings or combos he does on Shulk.

You'd want to focus on using the range on n-air to actually keep Falcon out. I'd say f-air but the landing lag makes it really risky to use. Falcon can punish the landing lag with dash grab really easily unless you have speed art on and you're retreating while you're using f-air. N-air works REALLY well in this match up. It covers a huge amount of area around Shulk, and it has low landing lag. Another great option against Falcon is pivoting f-tilt or f-smash. Whenever they try to break into your zone, you can throw out pivot f-tilt/f-smash to get them off (f-tilt and f-smash deal a lot of damage btw. Especially in buster). Don't ignore your ground tilts in this match up. D-tilt and f-tilt are useful in this match up. They've got good disjointed range and they deal good amount of damage (not much in speed but in buster, they deal a LOT of damage). U-tilt should only be used when Falcon is above you, obviously.

If you're using speed art, you should use your mobility to maintain a distance between you and Falcon. You're not suppose to close in unless there's an opening to capitalize on. If you're using buster art, you shouldn't be moving THAT much. Your main focus is to zone out Falcon while he tries to rush you down. If he's trying to bait you, try closing in a bit. You should still maintain a good distance between yourself and Captain Falcon. From that point, it's all n-airs, and tilts.

Also, vision works well in this match up. Since most of Falcon's attacks hit hard (not Bowser hard), you can KO him at fairly percentages with vision/forward vision. Yes. You can forward counter Falcon's u-air in shield art and STILL KILL HIM

tldr: Mid-range. Take advantage of your range. Speed/buster is good. Don't approach at all. Respect his jab and dash grab.

So... I think this is +1 Shulk or +0

Obviously, you're always trying to use the huge range of Nair landing, but I think it's a bit predictable, and if Falcon can read it he can punish well with a couple of Uair. Ftilt should be use to eat shield's health in buster or when Falcon is directly in front of you but you don' t have enough time to use Fsmash, while Dtilt is good after a Nair, when the opponent is trying to approach you from the ground and I sometimes find it useful for edgeguarding if you haven't the time to switch to Jump.Also, Dsmash is pretty good against his rolls since they are quite predictable and laggy.

So yeah, using Speed as a spacing mechaincs and considering Ftilt and Dtilt as good options I can change my opinion on the MU to +0

 

[Berserker.]

Yeah, you're right about the speed, but Falcon is still the second faster charatcher (third with Speed Shulk) so he
can use the same tactics AGAINST you. You're completely right about jump, though.

Yeah he can, and he definitely gets more reward out of it, but you got the edge on air speed and range. I'm only suggesting the idea of baiting if you're really going for the approach/rush down method but honestly, I still prefer zoning with speed or playing footsies

Obviously, you're always trying to use the huge range of Nair landing, but I think it's a bit predictable, and if Falcon can read it he can punish well with a couple of Uair. Ftilt should be use to eat shield's health in buster or when Falcon is directly in front of you but you don' t have enough time to use Fsmash, while Dtilt is good after a Nair, when the opponent is trying to approach you from the ground and I sometimes find it useful for edgeguarding if you haven't the time to switch to Jump.Also, Dsmash is pretty good against his rolls since they are quite predictable and laggy.

N-air can get predictable if you use it too much so mix it up with your other options. Pivot f-smash usually comes off as a surprise but using it too much will make it predictable. Personally, I don't use pivot f-smash that much but it does work. Pivot f-tilt is safer and faster.

 

[Linkmario00]

Well, we're fine about Speed Shulk. What about Vanilla Shulk instead? Has he some option against Falcon for you?

 

[erico9001]

You're playing speed incorrectly then if you relegate it all down to n-air and approaching. Do NOT approach with speed. Actually, don't approach at all with Shulk. Speed is much better if you bait approaches then rush in at the right time

Don't be predictable with your aerials. Your options with jump don't all come down to FF aerials. You either empty hop, FF then grab or cross up with an aerial (n-air or b-air). Learn how to play around with your opponents with your aerial mobility. I'd usually use jump for off-stage purposes though

I'd agree with this but I think speed also works really well. You need to run away and go back and forth against Falcon with speed. You need that additional mobility to catch up with him

You should be capable of switching to jump before getting wrecked so that Falcon's edgeguarding would be less of a problem

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyway.... This is the POV of Shulk again.

Shulk's range allows him to keep Falcon off his zone. I'd rather zone Falcon out in this match up because you DO NOT want to allow him to enter your zone. I'd say speed and buster work really well in this match up as long as you have a mindset of zoning Falcon out. A common mistakes Shulks do against Falcon is that they rush in and try to fight him at close quarters. You shouldn't do that at all. Falcon will likely outspeed Shulk's attacks and he'll rack up a lot of damage from whatever strings or combos he does on Shulk.

You'd want to focus on using the range on n-air to actually keep Falcon out. I'd say f-air but the landing lag makes it really risky to use. Falcon can punish the landing lag with dash grab really easily unless you have speed art on and you're retreating while you're using f-air. N-air works REALLY well in this match up. It covers a huge amount of area around Shulk, and it has low landing lag. Another great option against Falcon is pivoting f-tilt or f-smash. Whenever they try to break into your zone, you can throw out pivot f-tilt/f-smash to get them off (f-tilt and f-smash deal a lot of damage btw. Especially in buster). Don't ignore your ground tilts in this match up. D-tilt and f-tilt are useful in this match up. They've got good disjointed range and they deal good amount of damage (not much in speed but in buster, they deal a LOT of damage). U-tilt should only be used when Falcon is above you, obviously.

If you're using speed art, you should use your mobility to maintain a distance between you and Falcon. You're not suppose to close in unless there's an opening to capitalize on. If you're using buster art, you shouldn't be moving THAT much. Your main focus is to zone out Falcon while he tries to rush you down. If he's trying to bait you, try closing in a bit. You should still maintain a good distance between yourself and Captain Falcon. From that point, it's all n-airs, and tilts.

Shield art shouldn't be used that much. Falcon hits hard so you're still likely to be sent off stage even with the weight increase. Smash art is risky to use. Jump art is useful in the match up especially when Falcon is sent off stage. Falcon's recovery is one of his notable weaknesses. It's easy to gimp and well... jump art... you can gimp with jump easily.

I think Shulk's range is a huge asset in this match up. It really helps in keeping Falcon off Shulk's zone despite Falcon's insane mobility. Take note that you can also switch up your arts to gain either more mobility or more damage output. The main issue here is really the amount of damage Falcon can do once he's at an advantage because it's insane. The main problem though is that Falcon is really bad at a disadvantage since his falling speed makes him susceptible to speed and jump combos.

Also, vision works well in this match up. Since most of Falcon's attacks hit hard (not Bowser hard), you can KO him at fairly percentages with vision/forward vision. Yes. You can forward counter Falcon's u-air in shield art and STILL KILL HIM

tldr: Mid-range. Take advantage of your range. Speed/buster is good. Don't approach at all. Respect his jab and dash grab.

So... I think this is +1 Shulk imo

I agree with this defensive playing.

As for stages, Shulk should avoid smaller stages. Smashville is probably not great for us. Also, thanks to Falcon's strong aerials (that Uair too), Battlefield is probably not great either. We should probably opt for FD or Duck Hunt. If legal, Delfino might be a good counterpick, as the different forms often have things which would serve to break or slow down Falcon's approach. Town and City is larger than Smashville, so it might be a better option. Although, at the same time, it has more platforms.

 

[Berserker.]

Well, we're fine about Speed Shulk. What about Vanilla Shulk instead? Has he some option against Falcon for you?

Not really. You can play vanilla as if you were playing buster Shulk but you're going to lack the shield safety of buster

 

[Gidy]

You act like it's not possible for Captain Falcon to get in at all. If he gets in Shulk is royally screwed. One dash to shield blocking the nair and he's in this mans bubble. Shulk cannot do anything against his Down Throw combos except the basic air dodge/jump air dodge because of the lack of a fast aerial. Airslash could be used to get out and potentially get him in it's combo but it's risky because good Falcons like ZeRo eventually mix things up with the down throw combo and wait for the air dodge. Plus Shulk must have really good spacing for recovering because Falcons uptilt can spike if he were to pop up or even a downtilt can screw him. All of this put together with Falcon being one of the best rush down characters against a character that struggles with rushdown leaves me to believe it's about 60-40 in Falcons favor. Everything you said about Falcon is true, but imo Falcon has much better tools against Shulk then Shulk has against Falcon.

 

[Berserker.]

You act like it's not possible for Captain Falcon to get in at all. If he gets in Shulk is royally screwed. One dash to shield blocking the nair and he's in this mans bubble. Shulk cannot do anything against his Down Throw combos except the basic air dodge/jump air dodge because of the lack of a fast aerial. Airslash could be used to get out and potentially get him in it's combo but it's risky because good Falcons like ZeRo eventually mix things up with the down throw combo and wait for the air dodge. Plus Shulk must have really good spacing for recovering because Falcons uptilt can spike if he were to pop up or even a downtilt can screw him. All of this put together with Falcon being one of the best rush down characters against a character that struggles with rushdown leaves me to believe it's about 60-40 in Falcons favor. Everything you said about Falcon is true, but imo Falcon has much better tools against Shulk then Shulk has against Falcon.

It isn't impossible for Falcon to get into Shulk at all. It's just more difficult since Shulk outranges Falcon and he can also switch up his arts to actually stay away from Falcon while using aerials which is really important in this match up. With speed or jump art, you can easily drift backwards while using n-air or even f-air to maintain a zone between you and Falcon. With buster, n-air becomes safe on shield so dash to shield probably won't work 100% of the time unless you "power shield everything"

Against Falcon, it's best to avoid recovering low because like you said, he can screw Shulk's recovery over with u-tilt or d-tilt. It's better if you recover from the front of the edge and maximize the second air slash's horizontal drift since the second slash has MASSIVE range (which means you can outspace anyone with it).

Like I said, once Falcon gets in, it will hurt a lot. Insane damage output from combos, d-throw follow ups, and great JUGGLING ability. But we have to remember, Falcon's really bad at the disadvantage. Let's also note here that Shulk specializes at gimping with jump art and Falcon's recovery is extremely gimpable. You could say the same for Shulk but you have to take note that jump (and speed) art alleviates the problem.

So yeah, I think Shulk can make it difficult for Falcon to get in, and to add to that, Shulk can control the match with his range+mobility/range+safety on shield. What's scary is that Shulk can also seemingly transition into outranging Falcon into going in and performing combos/strings with buster/speed/jump when the time is right. Let's not undermine Shulk's reward from advantage also. Well, speed's damage output is a bit mediocre, you can still gimp with the art. Buster can really rack up damage insanely fast. Jump can gimp Falcon or kill him off stage. I'm 100% aware that Falcon is scary once he gets in but he'll have to work first before doing any serious damage.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

Not a fan of this match up at all. It's definitely winnable but its incredibly irritating. Shulk's got the range on his side obviously, but Falcons fast enough that Shulk really can't afford to push buttons without a clear punish opportunity. And once Falcon breaks through that wall Shulk can set up, it hurts, a lot. Both dash attack and grab lead into u-air chains that Shulk isn't really able to deal with cause as it's been said, Shulk doesn't have a particularly fast aerial outside of counter, which is unfortunately not very reliable in the air. Dash attacks also pretty annoying to deal with grounded since it clashes with all you're tilts, fsmash, and beats jab, and Falcon has the better buttons in the close up situation like that. Buster might help in that situation but I'm not actually sure on that. Also once Falcon gets in once its very easy for him to stay in, since after the uair chain Falcon will be waiting for you on the ground trying to read you're landing, and a correct read will mean either eating an fsmash or another grab -> uair chain.

Thankfully Shulk is also able to abuse Falcon if he's airborne, especially if you get him offstage. Once Falcon is offstage he cant really do anything to get back vs Shulk provided you respect the range on his up b and he's not miles above the ground. Just fair, nair, bair and Air Slash him until he dies. Also assuming Falcon's staled his uair he's not going to have an easy time killing you at a reasonable percent without a kill throw if you play it safe or Falcon gets the read since as far as I'm aware Falcon doesn't have a tremendous amount of KO set ups.

I think it's in Falcon's favor just cause the neutral state is way more rewarding and easier for him than it is for Shulk, and since Shulks game plan revolves around making punishes, it means the outcome of the match is mostly up to the Falcon player.

 

[Berserker.]

Shulk's gameplan also does not actually revolve around making punishes. Shulk's main gameplan is to keep Falcon away from him with his range. This is made easier with speed or buster. Speed increases his air mobility and ground speed. He's not as fast as Falcon (in terms of ground speed) but he can still synergize range and mobility to keep Falcon off.

I still think it's difficult for Falcon to get in. Speed+Disjoint is just too good. Buster is also good since Falcon is easy to combo and you can perform some high-damaging strings with buster against Falcon. Also, buster makes your attacks safer on shield which is a huge plus. It's not like Shulk doesn't gain a lot from being at an advantage too and we should take note that Falcon is horrible when he's at a disadvantage (Shulk is also bad at handling the scenario but he's not as atrocious as Falcon)

 

[FOcast]

We definitely do want to keep Falcon out in this MU, but eventually he's going to get in. Does anyone have solid info on getting out of Falcon's combos? Our aerials generally have too much startup to contest UAir strings or NAir followups. Vision is always an option, but it often whiffs unsafely when used in the air. Should I be trying to DI behind Falcon to break combo momentum?

 

[Berserker.]

We definitely do want to keep Falcon out in this MU, but eventually he's going to get in. Does anyone have solid info on getting out of Falcon's combos? Our aerials generally have too much startup to contest UAir strings or NAir followups. Vision is always an option, but it often whiffs unsafely when used in the air. Should I be trying to DI behind Falcon to break combo momentum?

Try to DI out of it. Don't use vision against Falcon when you're in mid air. Don't expect much though. As said, when he has the advantage, it's going to hurt a lot.

The key factor in this match up is to zone him out and while zoning him out, there are those moments where in you should actually start "going in". This "moment" usually comes off from hitting Falcon with d-tilt or n-air. From d-tilt or n-air, you can go for a dash grab then d-throw then that's when you start capitalizing on your advantage. From d-throw, you could either set up for n-air or true combo into f-air then from that, you should aim to f-air him off stage or just f-air him to keep him up in mid air. Remember to use u-tilt though for juggling him (Since that's your only actual juggling tool) at the right time. You can outrange his aerials with yours, so go nuts when Falcon is at a disadvantage.

He's going to get in eventually regardless of how difficult it is but usually, you're the one who's usually at an advantage more often, since the moves you use for zoning Falcon can easily be followed up for more damage.

Oh right. I almost forgot to add, there's no grab armor in this game

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

Got to play some Falcons offline today, learned some things, still think it's in Falcons favor but not as bad as before. You can keep him out as long as you want but I feel its one of those situations you can keep him out for like a minute and then he gets in once and its basically evened out immediately, which feels really annoying when it happens.

Some stuff I learned today,

• Going for grabs out of nair at early % actually seems pretty hard or risky. Whenever I tried it Falcon would just hold jab and stuff the ground approaches after the nair even when in Speed. Might be able to just nair him again but didn't think of it till just now. So it's possibly a mix up of how you want to follow up with nair.
• Falcons Dash Grab grab box is actually really close to him and apparently inside his body. It only seems big cause he speeds up and leaps forward during it. If you read it you can just get him with a standing grab.
• Falcon can go pretty low when recovering he he keeps his second jump handy. Watch out of that. Thinking that trying to fair him while facing the stage here is a good idea here, just cause its easier to land than a bair and both moves will stage spike.

Anyway, what stage should we be taking Falcon too and avoiding? I'd probably ban Halberd or Delfino, to avoid the low ceilings and walk offs on Delfino. I could see Duck Hunt and Lylat as decent CP's for Falcon cause you can KO with edgeguards sooner on Duck Hunt, avoid dying to Uair off the top on both of them, and get to abuse his recovery more on Lylat.

 

[Berserker.]

Got to play some Falcons offline today, learned some things, still think it's in Falcons favor but not as bad as before. You can keep him out as long as you want but I feel its one of those situations you can keep him out for like a minute and then he gets in once and its basically evened out immediately, which feels really annoying when it happens.

Some stuff I learned today,

• Going for grabs out of nair at early % actually seems pretty hard or risky. Whenever I tried it Falcon would just hold jab and stuff the ground approaches after the nair even when in Speed. Might be able to just nair him again but didn't think of it till just now. So it's possibly a mix up of how you want to follow up with nair.
• Falcons Dash Grab grab box is actually really close to him and apparently inside his body. It only seems big cause he speeds up and leaps forward during it. If you read it you can just get him with a standing grab.
• Falcon can go pretty low when recovering he he keeps his second jump handy. Watch out of that. Thinking that trying to fair him while facing the stage here is a good idea here, just cause its easier to land than a bair and both moves will stage spike.

At early percentages, even a spaced n-air won't really do that much knockback so you're better off with d-tilt, f-tilt or maybe another n-air or f-air. Jab or grab won't reach unless you landed n-air close to Falcon which really isn't suppose to happen since you're suppose to zone him out.

You guys have to start exploiting Falcon's disadvantaged options if you don't want Falcon's reward from advantage to even out the lead. Convert d-tilt, n-air or grab into an opportunity to deal a lot of damage (Once Falcon is hit and if he's at range for a string/combo with jump/speed/buster art, don't fear anything). You can easily turn the game into a lopsided affair if you're using buster, or you can easily send him off stage with speed or jump

I agree with the stage CP's and bans (Especially on banning Halberd)

I'm still +1 Shulk. Falcon's reward from advantage is insane but it won't come up that often. You can also thank Falcon's really bad disadvantaged options which are easy to take advantage of

 

[spiderfreak1011]

It isn't impossible for Falcon to get into Shulk at all. It's just more difficult since Shulk outranges Falcon and he can also switch up his arts to actually stay away from Falcon while using aerials which is really important in this match up. With speed or jump art, you can easily drift backwards while using n-air or even f-air to maintain a zone between you and Falcon. With buster, n-air becomes safe on shield so dash to shield probably won't work 100% of the time unless you "power shield everything"

Against Falcon, it's best to avoid recovering low because like you said, he can screw Shulk's recovery over with u-tilt or d-tilt. It's better if you recover from the front of the edge and maximize the second air slash's horizontal drift since the second slash has MASSIVE range (which means you can outspace anyone with it).

Like I said, once Falcon gets in, it will hurt a lot. Insane damage output from combos, d-throw follow ups, and great JUGGLING ability. But we have to remember, Falcon's really bad at the disadvantage. Let's also note here that Shulk specializes at gimping with jump art and Falcon's recovery is extremely gimpable. You could say the same for Shulk but you have to take note that jump (and speed) art alleviates the problem.

So yeah, I think Shulk can make it difficult for Falcon to get in, and to add to that, Shulk can control the match with his range+mobility/range+safety on shield. What's scary is that Shulk can also seemingly transition into outranging Falcon into going in and performing combos/strings with buster/speed/jump when the time is right. Let's not undermine Shulk's reward from advantage also. Well, speed's damage output is a bit mediocre, you can still gimp with the art. Buster can really rack up damage insanely fast. Jump can gimp Falcon or kill him off stage. I'm 100% aware that Falcon is scary once he gets in but he'll have to work first before doing any serious damage.

This basically covers most of the stuff i wouldv'e said about the MU.

Shulk outranges Falcon hard, he does have the speed to get in and punish hard, Shulk can easily match that and/or keep him out with good damage output aswell. Plus, Falcon's recovery options aren't that good, he can be gimped easily, and Shulk excels at gimping, so yeah.

I would say Buster's probably great in this match up moreso than speed, since Shulk keeps out Falcon really well with his range already, but is able to do immense damage and shield pressure with Buster on top of that. You can gain a lead on him pretty quickly. I definitely agree that this MU is +1 for Shulk.

 

[erico9001]

Got to play some Falcons offline today, learned some things, still think it's in Falcons favor but not as bad as before. You can keep him out as long as you want but I feel its one of those situations you can keep him out for like a minute and then he gets in once and its basically evened out immediately, which feels really annoying when it happens.

Some stuff I learned today,

• Going for grabs out of nair at early % actually seems pretty hard or risky. Whenever I tried it Falcon would just hold jab and stuff the ground approaches after the nair even when in Speed. Might be able to just nair him again but didn't think of it till just now. So it's possibly a mix up of how you want to follow up with nair.
• Falcons Dash Grab grab box is actually really close to him and apparently inside his body. It only seems big cause he speeds up and leaps forward during it. If you read it you can just get him with a standing grab.
• Falcon can go pretty low when recovering he he keeps his second jump handy. Watch out of that. Thinking that trying to fair him while facing the stage here is a good idea here, just cause its easier to land than a bair and both moves will stage spike.

Anyway, what stage should we be taking Falcon too and avoiding? I'd probably ban Halberd or Delfino, to avoid the low ceilings and walk offs on Delfino. I could see Duck Hunt and Lylat as decent CP's for Falcon cause you can KO with edgeguards sooner on Duck Hunt, avoid dying to Uair off the top on both of them, and get to abuse his recovery more on Lylat.

I agree with duck hunt due to its size and tall platforms. KOing with edgeguards sooner is good too. My main thoughts on stages is trying to have enough space to be able to react well to his run ins.

As for stages, Shulk should avoid smaller stages. Smashville is probably not great for us. Also, thanks to Falcon's strong aerials (that Uair too), Battlefield is probably not great either. We should probably opt for FD or Duck Hunt. If legal, Delfino might be a good counterpick, as the different forms often have things which would serve to break or slow down Falcon's approach. Town and City is larger than Smashville, so it might be a better option. Although, at the same time, it has more platforms.

I do think Delfino would be good for platforms can block approaches. Walk offs don't give the opportunity for edge guarding though. I'm not sure what outweighs the other there.

 

[Deleted member]

I've been playing as Captain Falcon a lot recently, so I do have some knowledge of the character.

Shulk
He completely outranges Captain Falcon. The reliable moves that you will be using here will be his tilts, his nair, his fair, and his bair. With these moves, you can keep Captain Falcon at bay and that is the key thing that you want to do in this fight. Captain Falcon can be scary to fight against with Shulk because once Captain Falcon gets in, Shulk can get punished pretty badly.
The main Monado Arts to use are Jump and Speed and sometimes Buster. Jump helps Shulk get away from Falcon and maneuvers him in a way where Falcon's combos are slightly weakened. Speed helps Shulk get closer to Falcon and basically pressure him; Speed also helps with making one of Falcon's advantages, his speed, a bit negligible. Speed is also good with Shulk's pivots, being able to do his sliding pivot grab and side tilt to pressure Falcon even more. I say use Buster sometimes because it can be a tool to space out Captain Falcon, but if Falcon gets in on you with Buster, he will really rack up damage on you. I only recommend Shield at higher percents and I would avoid Smash due to the power of Falcon's attacks.
Falcon has two weaknesses that can be exploited in this fight; his air speed and his recovery. His air speed allows Shulk to follow up on him; Shulk can easily do his up throw to up tilt combos and can pressure him with nair and fair combos. His recovery is awfully predictable; Shulk can have an easy time KOing him with his aerials and Falcon has a hard time recovering in general because he can't do any mix-ups.

Captain Falcon
One of his greatest attributes is his speed. He can rush in, pressure, and punish characters. He has some good attacks to punish you with; a bad roll could lead you to getting Raptor Boosted or Falcon Kicked. He has spacing tools of his own; granted they aren't as effective as Shulk's, but his down tilt, nair, and bair are all useful moves here.
The thing with Captain Falcon is that you want to keep him away from getting in on you. And yet, when he does get in on you, you will be attacked over and over again. His down throw in particular is scary as he can set up combos with his smash attacks, go for one of his infamous up or neutral aerial combos, or even use it to finish you off with the Knee of Justice. (might I add how scary a sweet-spotted Knee of Justice is? I KO'd a Marth at 50% with it) The same thing applies with his dash attack but even less so; he can set up combos with it, but not as great as his down throw. Captain Falcon can have an easy time comboing Shulk as well due to his poor air-speed.
The thing with Falcon is that you really want to let loose with him. He can style on you with his great smash attacks (albeit, some of them have bad end-lag, like his side smash) and his aerials off stage. Shulk can defend himself with his aerials, but Captain Falcon might come in with his down aerial, back aerial, or with the Knee of Justice.

Stages
The issue with fighting against Captain Falcon is that he is pretty adaptable on Battlefield, Final Destination, and Smashville. He can set up even more combos thanks to the platforms on Battlefield, rush in and pressure even more-so on Final Destination, and set up combos and pressure on Smashville.
Shulk might have a harder time on Final Destination; he can keep the Falcon at bay, but he has an easier time pressuring you here. I mostly recommend Battlefield for Shulk since he largely benefits from his range and the platforms here.
As for counter picks for Shulk, I think stages like Isle Delfino could weaken Captain Falcon, but my knowledge of the stage is fairly limited. Duck Hunt, on the other hand, is a good counter pick since his good vertical finishers are weakened here.

Overall
This is a very tricky match-up to say the least.
Shulk has versatility with his Monado Arts and has amazing range to space himself from Captain Falcon. On the other hand, Captain Falcon can easily punish and combo Shulk.
I say that the match-up is 50:50.

 

[Gidy]

I've been playing as Captain Falcon a lot recently, so I do have some knowledge of the character.

Shulk
He completely outranges Captain Falcon. The reliable moves that you will be using here will be his tilts, his nair, his fair, and his bair. With these moves, you can keep Captain Falcon at bay and that is the key thing that you want to do in this fight. Captain Falcon can be scary to fight against with Shulk because once Captain Falcon gets in, Shulk can get punished pretty badly.
The main Monado Arts to use are Jump and Speed and sometimes Buster. Jump helps Shulk get away from Falcon and maneuvers him in a way where Falcon's combos are slightly weakened. Speed helps Shulk get closer to Falcon and basically pressure him; Speed also helps with making one of Falcon's advantages, his speed, a bit negligible. Speed is also good with Shulk's pivots, being able to do his sliding pivot grab and side tilt to pressure Falcon even more. I say use Buster sometimes because it can be a tool to space out Captain Falcon, but if Falcon gets in on you with Buster, he will really rack up damage on you. I only recommend Shield at higher percents and I would avoid Smash due to the power of Falcon's attacks.
Falcon has two weaknesses that can be exploited in this fight; his air speed and his recovery. His air speed allows Shulk to follow up on him; Shulk can easily do his up throw to up tilt combos and can pressure him with nair and fair combos. His recovery is awfully predictable; Shulk can have an easy time KOing him with his aerials and Falcon has a hard time recovering in general because he can't do any mix-ups.

Captain Falcon
One of his greatest attributes is his speed. He can rush in, pressure, and punish characters. He has some good attacks to punish you with; a bad roll could lead you to getting Raptor Boosted or Falcon Kicked. He has spacing tools of his own; granted they aren't as effective as Shulk's, but his down tilt, nair, and bair are all useful moves here.
The thing with Captain Falcon is that you want to keep him away from getting in on you. And yet, when he does get in on you, you will be attacked over and over again. His down throw in particular is scary as he can set up combos with his smash attacks, go for one of his infamous up or neutral aerial combos, or even use it to finish you off with the Knee of Justice. (might I add how scary a sweet-spotted Knee of Justice is? I KO'd a Marth at 50% with it) The same thing applies with his dash attack but even less so; he can set up combos with it, but not as great as his down throw. Captain Falcon can have an easy time comboing Shulk as well due to his poor air-speed.
The thing with Falcon is that you really want to let loose with him. He can style on you with his great smash attacks (albeit, some of them have bad end-lag, like his side smash) and his aerials off stage. Shulk can defend himself with his aerials, but Captain Falcon might come in with his down aerial, back aerial, or with the Knee of Justice.

Stages
The issue with fighting against Captain Falcon is that he is pretty adaptable on Battlefield, Final Destination, and Smashville. He can set up even more combos thanks to the platforms on Battlefield, rush in and pressure even more-so on Final Destination, and set up combos and pressure on Smashville.
Shulk might have a harder time on Final Destination; he can keep the Falcon at bay, but he has an easier time pressuring you here. I mostly recommend Battlefield for Shulk since he largely benefits from his range and the platforms here.
As for counter picks for Shulk, I think stages like Isle Delfino could weaken Captain Falcon, but my knowledge of the stage is fairly limited. Duck Hunt, on the other hand, is a good counter pick since his good vertical finishers are weakened here.

Overall
This is a very tricky match-up to say the least.
Shulk has versatility with his Monado Arts and has amazing range to space himself from Captain Falcon. On the other hand, Captain Falcon can easily punish and combo Shulk.
I say that the match-up is 50:50.

At the very least, 50:50 agreed. I'd rather go Mario against Falcon anyway.

 

[Berserker.]

Final score is +1 / +0

 

[teluoborg]

My short exp on this matchup :
-best monodo arts are bluje green and yellow. Red and purple are gimmicks so they can be situationally good, but if the Falcon knows what he's doing they won't get you anywhere.

Blue art is very strong because Falcon relies a lot on outmanoeuvring hisopponent to get an edge, or abusing his speed to punish things that are normally unpunishable. While it's very easy to punish all of Shulk aerials normally, if he's in speed mode he can space them much more efficiently making his defense way stronger against Falcon.
While in speed mode you have high speed and high range, which is better than Falcon's high speed + medium range combination.
It can also be used to augment your combo potential but I'm not gonna teach you anything about that.

Green art is also pretty good even onstage because you'll escape Falcon's combos and pressure more easily. It obviously helps your reco and I'm always amazed from how low green up B can recover.

Yellow art is situational, but when it's good it's really good. Falcon's kill moves rely a lot on rage effect and knockback growth, so if you make him lose both (the first by killing him first and the second with shield stance) you're going to reduce his kill potential by a lot, allowing you to chip away Falcon's new stock before dying.

Now why I think purple and red arts are bad : they don't give you more options and put you into a specific mindset.

Personally, if I see a Shulk going purple mode I know he want to deal damage. If he hits it'll hit harder, but unlike speed or jump mode he has nothing to make him hit me more reliably than in neutral mode. Even better, if I wait until the mode ends he'll suffer a cooldown and will be unable to use it again for a certain time. Which means that by playing defensively I force Shulk to choose between wasting his buster mode or playing aggressively. It's win win for me.

Red mode is even worse than purple because on top of Shulk having to play offensively he has to use specific moves to capitalize on it. Nothing screams "I AM GOING TO TRY TO LAND AN FTILT" like red mode. No, its only use imo would be in edgeguard situations, where Shulk can easily cover Falcon's recovery options.


In the end I'd say it's a neutral matchup. No arts Shulk is easy, but the adaptability his arts provide make him able to compete in every field with Falcon.

 

[Berserker.]

FINALLY, A FALCON MAIN...

THAT ACTUALLY POSTED

Now why I think purple and red arts are bad : they don't give you more options and put you into a specific mindset.

Purple/buster art allows more safety on shield. Although I still am against being aggressive against Falcon, if the Falcon decides to switch to baiting, Shulk can try going in ONLY until mid-range. He can harass Falcon from that range with buster since it's safe on shield anyway. Buster Shulk should be played more defensively in the MU but Shulk can be a bit aggressive. Not too aggressive though (don't go at close range please)

 

[teluoborg]

But because it has a timer and a cooldown Buster can't be played defensively. It should, but unless you're playing against someone stupid it can't.

And do you have actual frame data for buster/smash moves on shield ? I imagine buster will be safer since they deal more damage, but will that really make a big difference ?
And I'm skeptical about smash since it doesn't augment your damage but only your knockback.

Also you can't really camp at mid range against Falcon because of dash grab. Unless it's something ridiculous like the tip of Fsmash or Bair, if it's in range to hit Falcon then Falcon is in range to dash grab. Plus, Shulk's moves don't come out fast enough to react to Falcon's movement speed.

 

[Berserker.]

But because it has a timer and a cooldown Buster can't be played defensively. It should, but unless you're playing against someone stupid it can't.

Shulk can decide to close into mid-range where buster excels. Only reason why I'd prefer to play defensively is so that I won't risk making a mistake against Falcon. That's about it. If he tries to time it out, might as well walk closer but not that close.

And do you have actual frame data for buster/smash moves on shield ? I imagine buster will be safer since they deal more damage, but will that really make a big difference ?

Smash art makes your attacks unsafe on shield (by a lot) because of the damage nerf. Buster increases safety by a lot. It even goes as far as increasing shield push back and the damage on shield health is insane

We're working on the frame data but as far as experience goes, I haven't been punished that often when I whack shields. Frame data numbers will be coming but maybe not soon enough. Plz understand hehe

And I'm skeptical about smash since it doesn't augment your damage but only your knockback.

It's way too unsafe on shield. It doesn't increase base knockback. It increases knockback growth. Smash art is more read based because of its lack of damage and lack of safety on shield

Also you can't really camp at mid range against Falcon because of dash grab. Unless it's something ridiculous like the tip of Fsmash or Bair, if it's in range to hit Falcon then Falcon is in range to dash grab. Plus, Shulk's moves don't come out fast enough to react to Falcon's movement speed.

Dash grab is great and all. It's one of the tools that make mid-range a bit more complicated than usual but it isn't going to shut down buster at mid-range. Tipped b-air and n-air are great at mid-range even if you have to worry about dash grab. There's also d-tilt and f-tilt which are excellent, especially when well spaced. Both tilts have great range, disjoint and shield safety+push back. I'd agree that Shulk's moves wouldn't come out fast enough which is why you'd space them from Falcon to compensate for the frame speed (his huge disjoint was made to compensate for his frame data). I should note that grab armor isn't in the game anymore. Any attempt to grab Shulk while doing n-air won't do you any favors. Also, Shulk's jab comes out at frame 5 while Falcon's dash grab comes out at frame 9. Shulk can use jab to cover his landing from getting dash grabbed.... or just pivot f-tilt. Any of the 2 work.

The best time (imo) for Falcons to go for dash grab is for shield grabbing an aerial or when punishing Shulk's f-air/b-air landing. If there's anything that can ruin buster, it's not "timing it out." It's shield grabbing (Especially f-air). Instead of trying to beat Shulk to the punch with dash grab, it's a lot safer and equally rewarding to actually simply shield grab his aerials. You'd have to power shield but hey, Shulk's aerials aren't exactly hard to react to, to be honest. This is why I started mixing it up with his ground attacks and his grab to avoid getting shield grabbed too much (or in other words, getting too predictable) :D

~~~~~~

But anyway, I don't think buster is useless against Falcon. Damage is too much to ignore. It makes spacing and mid-range much more rewarding. I'd agree on speed being the best (definitely). I'm also with you on Smash art being too risky in this MU.

 

[teluoborg]

I don't think buster is useless, but it's high risk high reward, when speed and jump are low risk high reward and shield is low risk low reward.

I'll try to gather more exp in the future, but there are only 2 Shulk mains I know of for now.

 

[energyman2289]

Very well written berserker. It's very hard to find an opening in high level Shulk, and reading all this gave me a better idea of what their options are. If Falcon's gonna want to win this matchup, he'll need to be patient.

 

[Galaxian]

I really need help on this MU. I'm trying to learn Shulk, and I had the displeasure of facing a very good Falcon on FG. Granted it was on 3DS so maybe I was doing worse than I should've but I had an awful time.

How do I face Falcon? I've been told it's one of Shulk's easier MUs, too, which hurt a lot.

 

[Sol0ke]

If you've been playing on 3DS, a lot of stuff is going to be a lot harder due to the fact that....well, it's the 3DS version.

Shulk should be able to keep Falcon away by spacing his attacks so that he can't get in. Speed can also come in handy.

 

[Berserker.]

I really need help on this MU. I'm trying to learn Shulk, and I had the displeasure of facing a very good Falcon on FG. Granted it was on 3DS so maybe I was doing worse than I should've but I had an awful time.

How do I face Falcon? I've been told it's one of Shulk's easier MUs, too, which hurt a lot.

Aye man. Just read the whole match up discussion. It will be helpful for you.

 

[Tails2Link]

This is a matchup I deal with alot due to the apparent luck I have of running into Falcons 75% of the time, and my main issue is dealing with the dash grab. Should I be doing a Jab if I can read it, or just f-tilt, spot dodge, or just roll behind/away from Falcon?

 

[Berserker.]

This is a matchup I deal with alot due to the apparent luck I have of running into Falcons 75% of the time, and my main issue is dealing with the dash grab. Should I be doing a Jab if I can read it, or just f-tilt, spot dodge, or just roll behind/away from Falcon?

Retreating aerial or jab or pivot f-tilt

 

[G0lden]

I may be in the minority here, but I think we lose this. There's several reasons to this, one being Falcon's incredibly easy combos. Like Jerm said in his most recent video, Shulk is combo bait for characters like Falcon and Mario. Falcon's speed is another issue for us. Yes, we do have Speed, but it only lasts for so long and it's not really as good at comboing fast falling heavies as opposed to floaties. Not unwinnable but in Falcon's favor IMO.