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Cap Falc/Sheik main here. Name your main(s) and the best strategies to use to beat you!

Thereflex

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
18
Location
Brooklyn NY
3DS FC
1993-8522-8888
Hey guys. SUPER new to the smash scene but I've been playing fighting games my whole life. I see the words OP thrown out a lot around here, so I thought it might be helpful to list basic strategies to use against your respective mains!

Captain Falcon: Spacing! It seems to me that when Cap Falcon whiffs something, he REALLY whiffs it. Abuse my predictable moves like the falcon kicks and go in for a throw anytime you think I'm going to whiff. Also don't let me get you in the air as I have a very strong juggle. If you see me use side special to try and get back on the ledge, use a tilt on me.

Sheik: I can poke the life out of you, but scoring a knockout is going to take punishing a big mistake from you. As long as you don't play too crazy, you can live for a long time against me. Try and predict where I'm going to teleport if I'm using it a lot. Also don't get intimidated by long strings of the same move, as they look worse than they hurt. My side smash is also deceptively long range, so keep that in mind when coming up from an edge at high percentages
 

vypex

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 19, 2014
Messages
49
Shiek as a main for me, I'm an experience player played every single smash since 64 came out, mained shiek since she came out in melee, in 3ds online my biggest weakness has been lag, in all honesty thats what has caused the most deaths for me, very skilled players who know what there doing can beat me, but rematches are always close, Ike has been a thorne in my side with skilled players, his range is very troublesome as his knock backs land me far enough for his follow up jumping attack to his me, my best bet is to be unpredictable against skilled ike's and utilized movement and throws with chip damage to finally get him to a smashable point
 

RamenKing1

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
205
NNID
Samakoph
3DS FC
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MegaMan

Almost all of MegaMan's moves have about a second of downtime. I generally avoid tossing those moves out unless I know for sure I'm going to hit. The moves in particular are his upsmash, downsmash, up-tilt, forward smash. You'll most likely see me grab, throw projectiles (not spam), slide and dash attack to rack up the damage before finishing you off with a reliable kill move.
 

kyxsune

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
248
3DS FC
2423-2660-2706
Zero Suit Samus here,

Im fast and can build damage, but I only have three KO moves. (and If u are good at controlling your projectory its really only two). Watch out for my down b its active frames are unusually long and it launches quite easily, and do NOT try to gimp me off stage. My paralyzer is the start to the majority of my combos, so watch out for it (spot dodges and shields aren't really a counter for it as it leaves you open for a nice grab). In short, in order to beat me you have to keep me at a distance and be prepared for a quick transition from long to short range.
 

trilok

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
117
Shiek as a main for me, I'm an experience player played every single smash since 64 came out, mained shiek since she came out in melee, in 3ds online my biggest weakness has been lag, in all honesty thats what has caused the most deaths for me, very skilled players who know what there doing can beat me, but rematches are always close, Ike has been a thorne in my side with skilled players, his range is very troublesome as his knock backs land me far enough for his follow up jumping attack to his me, my best bet is to be unpredictable against skilled ike's and utilized movement and throws with chip damage to finally get him to a smashable point
ike is a garbage character. if you indeed are having problems with ike, i doubt you are facing "very skilled players."
 

Thereflex

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
18
Location
Brooklyn NY
3DS FC
1993-8522-8888
ike is a garbage character. if you indeed are having problems with ike, i doubt you are facing "very skilled players."
How would you approach the matchup then? What is it that makes Ike so bad that a Sheik main shouldn't lose against him?
 

Dsull

Smash Ace
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
536
Location
Nebraska
3DS FC
5301-0115-2290
Lucario:
Contrary to popular opinion, Lucario has bad killing potential unless he has high damage. He actually has crap for damage until ~40%, so until you hit him you really dont have to worry about getting caught up in a combo.
Hes slow, minus his UpB with high damage, and his smashes have short range (aura doesnt increase the reach). If you can bait out a smash, sideb, or shorthop and manage to dodge it hes usually left wide open for awhile and vulnerable.
Finally, his recovery. When he has high damage you cant beat him unless you either clear him or just keep smacking him as he recovers, eventually he gets hit hard enough to fly off the board since hes already much closer to it. His UpB has very very low priority, most nairs/fairs will beat it.

Wario:
9/10 of the time when i get on my bike, im going to jump off of it before i hit you into a dair or nair in case you jumped the bike rather than punching it. Airdodging usually avoids this, and since this leads into one hell of a combo you might want to dodge it.
Remember when the match has gone on for about a minute/half, i.e last stock typically, DO NOT be above me. You can tell if my super fart is ready but its hard to notice especially if i got damage racked up. Wario's super fart is basically point-blank sideways but if it hits you at all in the air youre done for. Ive won dozens upon dozens of matches becuase someone tried to spike me and i waffed into their fist, overpowering it and killing them.
 
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gustypoint

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 19, 2014
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Long Island, NY
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gustypoint
Right now i have been mostly using Marth, Lucina, and Rosalina and Luma

Marth: He was my main in brawl so I'm comfortable using him

Lucina: Very similar to Marth but i like that I don't have to worry about landing the tip pf the sword to get the most damage

Rosalina and Luma: After playing as her a few times I really liked the way I have been using her
 

Pebbicle

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
29
Let's see... I'm mainly using Lucina and Lucario (funny my my two mains start with the same three letters hehe) and to a lesser extent Marth, when I want to switch up my game a bit.

For Marth, simply keep your distance and don't let me get too close. Since Marth has a sword, he has longer range than other characters and as such will look to keep you at bay, especially considering the tipper. What I like to do is to short hop into FAir, jump above for a DAir, or jump behind the opponent for a BAir. I try to switch these up in order to be a bit more unpredictable, but they all have the same countering method really which is the shield. If you successfully shield one of these attacks then you're almost guaranteed to either grab me (if FAir) or tilt (if the other two). Other than that I just like to be overall speedy and run around a lot without rolling too much, which I find annoying and predictable when people do. Since I also don't have any projectiles, it's your advantage if you're playing let's say, Samus. You can easily keep me away from you by mixing up rockets and the charge shot. Just don't spam the charge shot I hate projectile spammers haha.

Lucina is basically the same, except that I play way more aggressively with her. Since I don't have to worry about landing a tipper, I usually just jump in there, using my extremely fast walking and running speed to dish out as much damage as possible.

For Lucario, look up what Dsull wrote, since that's pretty much it. I also want to point out that when I'm playing Lucario, I will ALWAYS lag behind in the beginning of the game. I will overall deal less damage then the opponent, which is actually something I use to my advantage as stupid as it may sound. When I reach the higher percentages, my opponent very often gets cocky and try to finish me off, which I then use in my favor to get some combos in. As the Force Palm range increases by A LOT, I like using that to keep opponents away from me while dealing reasonable amounts of damage, occasionally switching things up by firing off an Aura Sphere. By "intentionally" letting the opponent get ahead of me in the game, I very often take both of the opponents stocks without losing a single one of mine. Of course, this backfires sometimes as well. Everyone does mistakes and if I get shanked quickly then things won't go nearly as well, and I might even lose 2-0.

By the way, don't be predictable with slow smashes and falcon punch for example. Most people just avoid them and try to grab or combo the opponent, but with :4marth:, :4lucina: and :4lucario: I absolutely love to use counter as an offensive tool, sometimes even finishing the opponent off in the process. So be careful with that.

To finish this off, I also want to say there is no true guide how to beat any character as it depends on the player. Me for example, I'm extremely offensive when playing, which unfortunately doesn't work well against camping players or overall inferior players who like to roll to one side of the level and spam their projectile... Also shield shield shield, if you use your shield you will do well against me. Since I'm not a big fan of shield grabbing, I almost always get caught by those after one of my attacks fails. I just never seem to learn to be a bit more cautious! :smash:
 

Wintropy

Peace and love and all that jazzmatazz~! <3
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I really like this thread. Understanding our weaknesses helps us get stronger.

:4pit: Pit :4pit:

Pit is a balanced and versatile character with good melee and ranged skills. Because of that, though, he doesn't really excel in any area. He's decent on the ground, though I prefer to take the fight to the air - if you see me coming towards you, expect a dash or a grab to get you goin' up. Try to either stay grounded or maintain aerial superiority if you can, as that compromises my main strategies. Be wary of taking prolonged time to charge or dropping your guard, because I'll exploit that with an Upperdash Arm - guard it and I'll be left wide open for a counter-strike! I also tend to play rushdown and aerial, so be prepared for a full-frontal strike. Counters and reflectors work well here, since I'll try to get up in your face to take you down, only using the arrows as a backup weapon. Pit is also relatively light, so he'll be launched without much danger, and his best kill moves are all melee - if you can keep me at a distance and maintain the aerial advantage, you should be good to go!

:4palutena: Palutena :4palutena:

Palutena is methodical and precise, but when she hits, she hits hard. This is a tricky character to figure out, since her moveset is totally definable by the player. Even the default moveset, while lacking in damaging options, is incredible for counter / reflect play, so you need to be wary of that. Overall, Palutena's the setup queen: she is at her best when she is tricking you out into the open and striking back when your guard is down, so be careful of any and all exposure you may have that she can exploit. Stay fast and on your feet, rush her down whenever you can, strike hard and quick, but don't get cocky - the moment you drop your guard, you'll be in for a world of dangers. Exploit her methodical nature and don't give her time to react. If you can break her nigh-on impregnable defenses, it'll be tricky for her to get out of it, so stay calm, analyse the situation, figure out what to do and hit her whenever the chance arises.
 

Ursaguy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
92
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My main is Shulk and the secret to beating me is playing in a crazy, bizarre, unconventional manner. My most used attack will always be the counter, as I'm big on stalling and being defensive. If you approach me in a predictable way, regardless of skill (unless of course against good tourney guys), I'm going to be able to move out of it. If you do something that I've never seen before or something to catch me off guard, you'll have some easy hits on me (maybe I'm not good enough, but I'm having a really tough time getting out of combos that I feel like I could get out of if I was playing a different character). Spacing is a big one, since if you get close on me and I don't have an immediate way to move back then I'm in trouble (Most often occurrence for me is to counter a non attack and then get grabbed either into a small combo or into a corner where I'm not going to be able to roll away and reset).
 

SevenYearItch

Smash Journeyman
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Apr 15, 2014
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489
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GTA, Ontario, Canada
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Captain Falcon (aka the jab king):
For my Falcon play, I pretty much try to rule the ground and use my airs as finishers. The key is to basically just not get caught in my jab starts and grab mixups because I use his speed to get easy follow ups. Also, I use the knee very rarely, but very effectively. So if you think you're safe getting back on the stage at 60%, here it comes. If I whiff, its shield and jab immediately.

TL;DR Don't get jabbed to death
 

Thereflex

Smash Rookie
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Location
Brooklyn NY
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@ SevenYearItch SevenYearItch that's really good to know about Falcon and his jabs. I wasn't aware his jabs were so highly regarded. Definitely going to remember that the next time I fight him/play him.
 

Super Writer

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
162
All Characters
I focus on opponents with the highest % and pick them off one by one. I prefer to take advantage of anything, brief invulnerability after respawning and letting others fight each other. My preferred method of KO is the Up Smash, but if the character I'm using has some good kill moves, I make use of them. Also first thing I do nearly every match is get to the bottom of the stage, I feel it's a more strategic position.

Rosalina and Luma
At the beginning of the match I make sure to get to the outside if I'm spawned in the middle, from here I take two options usually:
  1. In case I'm against less skilled players, I rush in, often grabbing and cornering one near the edge. If luck is on my side the other two players continue fighting each other.
  2. In case I'm against good players, I send in Luma and spam Star Bits, just to rack in some damage, once % goes up I start having it use the Up Smash.
Once a player is around 50-80%, I try to isolate them, I knock them up and try to finish them with Up Aerials or in case they leave themselves open, an Up Smash. In the scenario that either I have a decent shot lined up for one player or all players are badly damage, I use a fully charged Luma Shot, surprisingly effective even if I'm aiming for one character with two others jumping around them.

How to beat me: As stated, I'm THAT player, the one that wins by taking advantage of everything. Take away my advantages, never let me get you near an edge, or give me time to use the Luma Shot. Most of all, know once you hit 50-80%, I'm after you, find ways to take advantage of this, and all things considered I'm really good at not dying, so halfway through the match I'll have 100-200% on me.
 

SevenYearItch

Smash Journeyman
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Apr 15, 2014
Messages
489
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GTA, Ontario, Canada
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@ SevenYearItch SevenYearItch that's really good to know about Falcon and his jabs. I wasn't aware his jabs were so highly regarded. Definitely going to remember that the next time I fight him/play him.
The last few people I ditto'd from the forum said they found a whole new respect for his jabs after playing with me. I use them for everything since the gentleman has a small enough knock back that I can combo into it and such. Jabs are your friend. Shield>Jab combo>Knee
 

Pebbicle

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
29
Also wanted to point out after reading Super Writer's post, that I exclusively play 1-on-1, so what I wrote doesn't include a full game of four players.

In my opinion 1-on-1 is much more exciting as it's only you and your opponent. I would be frustrated beyond hell if someone camped and then nigged my KO's hahah
 

Oatkeeper

Smash Cadet
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Sep 3, 2014
Messages
30
NNID
MForward56
3DS FC
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If you're Little Mac you better watch out if you're playing against Mario or the Doctor. A single cape off stage is all it takes for you to lose a stock as there is next to nothing you can do to recover.
 

Reila

the true enemy of humanity is anime
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Bowser Jr. main here. How to beat him: Hit him until he dies, don't get hit.

On a more serious note, I am not exactly an experienced/competitive player, but Bowser Jr is easily my most played character in Smash 4, so I think I can give some tips on how this character works. Anyways, the first thing you need to remember is that Bowser Jr can gimp very well, so air dodging is your best friend when you are thrown out of the stage. Really, he can do some crazy stuff out stage. You can grab the mecha-koopas and thrown back to him (and as any projectile, it is prone to be reflected by any reflecting move).

Bowser Jr sadly doesn't have any reliable kill moves and his 'best' ones are: The hammer move after he uses up special, fsmash (easy to read and avoid), fair, up special and neutral special. He has a decent grab range, but none of his throws are good kill moves also. So no reliable kill moves at all. What this means is that chances are you aren't going to get killed by Jr until a considerably high %, unless you aren't careful and get hit by any of his kill moves, which are actually pretty good, even if not reliable.

You can punish Jr easily if he spins after using his side B (the Clown Kart), but he can jump out of it as well, so be careful. His jabs are pretty good, but the ending blow is a laggy mess and I think you can roll out of it. Also, not everyone knows, but Bowser Jr takes more damage when hit in his body than when hit in the Junior Clown Car (iirc it is something like 125% damage on his body and 85% on the car), so hitting him from above is a good idea. That said, Bowser Jr have a great up tilt and his uair isn't that bad, so you really don't want to stay right above him.

That is it for now. He is such a fun character. :)
 
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Super Writer

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
162
Also wanted to point out after reading Super Writer's post, that I exclusively play 1-on-1, so what I wrote doesn't include a full game of four players.

In my opinion 1-on-1 is much more exciting as it's only you and your opponent. I would be frustrated beyond hell if someone camped and then nigged my KO's hahah
Bleh, it's all about adapting to the chaos, buddy! But what-evs, either way a lot of my strategies carry over to one on one, just not the picking off opponents part, since, well it's a given.

And for the record, I don't camp, I look for strategic positions. There's actually a big difference.
 

Jae

You're outta luck, buddy
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I am a Shulk main, and here's some of my tips that you can utilize to beat me:

:4pacman:
 

TheBlossomingLily

Stitchface King
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BlossomingLily
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As a :4peach: main all I have to say is turn around, walk to the edge, crouch, and accept your fate.

But in all seriousness if you see a :4peach: whiff an aerial while floating you can probably get a Knee or at least a Neutral Air in as :4falcon:. Your Up Air can juggle :4peach: decently too.
I also imagine as :4sheik: you can just smack a :4peach: with Front Air if she's just floating towards you. And if you see a :4peach: plucking a Turnip without using the Edge Glitch for some reason then you can get a free Needle shot at her while she's getting it.

Also in general if you see a :4peach: floating with a Turnip in hand expect her to cancel her ending lag from any aerial she uses with a Turnip throw just as she lands.

I'd like to provide you with more info but I lack experience.
 

sweq32

Smash Cadet
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I don't have a main, really. I use Dedede a lot, though. The best way to beat Dedede is to take advantage of him when he uses moves with a lot of lag (FSmash, Down-B, etc.)
 

Pebbicle

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
29
Bleh, it's all about adapting to the chaos, buddy! But what-evs, either way a lot of my strategies carry over to one on one, just not the picking off opponents part, since, well it's a given.

And for the record, I don't camp, I look for strategic positions. There's actually a big difference.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I didn't imply that you specifically camped, I just meant people who does that in general haha

Anyhow, can you tell me why you prefer to play with four players? It seems as if less skill is required in the sense that you could simply avoid the combat, just rush in to steal a KO, and then avoid combat again. I wouldn't know how it works exactly since in over 400 online matches I've never played a single 4-player game :laugh:
 

Super Writer

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
162
Oh, don't get me wrong, I didn't imply that you specifically camped, I just meant people who does that in general haha

Anyhow, can you tell me why you prefer to play with four players? It seems as if less skill is required in the sense that you could simply avoid the combat, just rush in to steal a KO, and then avoid combat again. I wouldn't know how it works exactly since in over 400 online matches I've never played a single 4-player game :laugh:
For Glory mode is like chess, the rules are set, you are always aware of everything, and victory is a matter of skill alone.
For Fun mode is chess, except it has four players and a for some reason a player might get 2 Queens one round while another gets nothing but pawns.

That's the best way I could describe it, I enjoy seeing the odds I was given and trying to come out on top. For me it's all about the chaos and adapting to it, finding the right positions and capitalizing off of every opportunity, even if I'm dealt the worst hand. That or have fun crushing everyone when I'm dealt a good hand.

While I agree For Glory is a better show of raw skill, I just enjoy the chaos.
 

Locke 06

Sayonara, bye bye~
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I've learned something from these things, so I guess I should reciprocate...

:4megaman: main: The way I play Mega Man is that I want to control the pace of the game. You can't breach my wall of lemons and projectiles and I will constantly be throwing out lemons. Stay back and try and camp projectiles? I casually approach with lemons negating your projectiles, so unless you know that your projectiles have a higher priority or can go around/eat my lemons (Link bombs/Sheik needles), I wouldn't advise it. The space I want to be in is right outside of the reach of your tilt/jab and the edge of my lemon range. You want to get through the lemons, otherwise you're just stuck. However, if I think you're being careless with your approach on the ground, I'll go in myself with my highly mobile dtilt (slide), dash attack, or grab (which leads to FAir/UAir follow ups or grab mind games). If you go in via short hop, my BAir has some great horizontal range and good knockback, so be wary of that.

That being said, once you get in. Do not go out. Don't waste all that effort. Combo me, hit me with something hard, KO me. Because once we have space again, you have to go through the lemons. If I'm up in the air, my down air has some start up time, so I'll be raining Metal Blades to deter jugglers, but I'm pretty vulnerable up there. On the ground, I don't have any safe tilts, but if I sweet spot you with my lemon (close to my body), you'll be pushed back to mid-range. Also, if I take out any of my kill moves (utilt, dsmash, fsmash, usmash) capitalize as they all have some ending lag.

The way to win is to either take control the pace of the game, capitalize/bait missed kill moves, and/or get in close and kill. Edge guarding Mega Man can be tough due to how quickly Rush boosts Mega Man up, so I wouldn't rely on that unless you're playing jigglypuff or something like that.

Either beat me at my own game of spacing, have a superior long range arsenal (Samus), change the game pace to close range combat, or bait out mistakes.

When you find a better way to beat me... let me know.
 

SevenYearItch

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As a :4peach: main all I have to say is turn around, walk to the edge, crouch, and accept your fate.

But in all seriousness if you see a :4peach: whiff an aerial while floating you can probably get a Knee or at least a Neutral Air in as :4falcon:. Your Up Air can juggle :4peach: decently too.
I also imagine as :4sheik: you can just smack a :4peach: with Front Air if she's just floating towards you. And if you see a :4peach: plucking a Turnip without using the Edge Glitch for some reason then you can get a free Needle shot at her while she's getting it.

Also in general if you see a :4peach: floating with a Turnip in hand expect her to cancel her ending lag from any aerial she uses with a Turnip throw just as she lands.

I'd like to provide you with more info but I lack experience.

I favorite kill I've ever nailed on For Glory was against a Peach. The player was just floating above me after coming on stage and I ended up double jumping all the way up to her for the knee kill. I shed a tear
 

Ampetrix

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Maining Ness here, and Olimar(secondary) too, planning for Robin and Kirby and Zelda too, so the first two...

As Ness, I'll always set things up with PK fire, and if that doesn't work, I'll do dash attack. I WILL always try to get you up in the air an smash you with fairs, uairs and bairs. Be wary when you're at high percentage and get hit by a PK fire, accept your fate getting killed by a bthrow, or you got out of it for some reason. I will fsmash when you least expect it, so always be wary. Dthrow-fair-fair-something would be common. I rarely PKT snipe someone. ALSO I suck at recovering, because I rarely use PKT, so I would have a hard time getting back at high percentages, and the lag making my PKT fail.

As for Olimar(Alph for that matter), I tend to be aggressive at times, which is a bad thing since Alphs should take a campy playstyle. I'll just Pikmin throw once, and I try to preserve my pikmin as much as possible, expect shorthopping fairs from me for some reason( I just love shorthopping ), I'll keep racking the damage up until I find the opportunity to hit you with an fsmash or usmash, I won't grab often since Alph has horrible lag when doing that, so utilize your shield. I tend to get two purple pikmins(they just don't die) on my arsenal, so I guess utilize that to your advantage, and that would be the time I would edgeguard you by suiciding these pikmin. I often do dash and uair combo or the jab-grab one at low percentage. ftilts should be expected too,as I would use them to get you off the stage.

I'm not good that much or anything, but I can beat a handful of players, specially when I'm in a good mood and the internet's great.
 

relaxedexcorcist

Smash Ace
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relaxed
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*cracks knuckles* Ok time to rant about Shulk. TLDR at the bottom.

As a Shulk main for now, I find I have to be stupidly precise in order to land anything. Even though my range is enormous, they aren't active at all and both have decent start up lag and horrendous end lag. For example, the attacks where he stabs his sword out and the beams comes out shortly after have very few active frames unlike other characters like Link's U/D-air, which are active as long as the sword is out. Shulks stabby moves stop having a hitbox once the laser portion finishes coming out, which means Shulk will stand still looking like an idiot for a long enough time for you to just run in and punish him with whatever grab or dash attack you want. Even nair, which only has a few frames of lag is pretty easily punished if your character is fast enough or i space it wrong. which means if I want to hit you out of an attack or in neutral I either have to:
a) hope you telegraph it way in advance
b) get a read
c) be lucky

I think he has the best counter or one of the best in the game, since its active for a super long time, ignores shields and can control the knockback direction provided i'm on the ground, and hit characters sitting on the ledge (though that almost never matters) meaning I can counter things the other characters can't and still hit you, like slow projectiles. I've gotten kills on Bowser Jr. and Zamus' who followed right behind there projectiles that I countered. However like all counters you can deal with it by just waiting for the active frames to end (granted you'll have to wait much longer than usual which might throw you off for a while), by grabbing me or by hitting me from above or below, since I can only hit things that will be in front of me. I will probably always be considering "I could counter this" since my counter kills pretty good and that my other kill moves (fsmash, ftilt, uair, dair spike, bair and fair offtstage, dsmash and usmash and Air Slash) are stupidly hard to land even though I have quite a bit of them, and the ones that are easier to land don't kill till pretty late or I have to go offstage. So just try not to be obvious with your kill moves (by say like, charging a move that you have to use once you start it as I try to land. Then you're just asking for it) or bait me into the counter by making it look like your gonna go for a kill but then backing off. The counter is also not very good on mobile moves or very reliable in the air. For instance, it's stupid hard to counter Sheik's aerials because she makes herself so small and she still moves enough vertically that I'll probably miss, And bouncing fish can't be countered because you'll just bounce off of me, flying to high for me to hit you.

My offstage and recovery game is also not the best. Air Slash is probably the worst Dolphin Slash-esque recovery in the game. It's slow, depending on where you hit with the first strike, the second is not guaranteed, and of course the second hit is the one that matters, and it only auto-snaps only in two places, during the second slash and the very beginning of the attack (the one place I don't want it to autosnap) This means my recovery path is very predictable and linear if I choose to or am forced to recover low. You can can just fall and drop any meaty attack and you'll either hit me and then I'll probably die, or we'll trade hits, and you'll get knocked back toward the stage and I'll still die. To avoid this I often try to recover high first but since I have to use my second jump to get that high, if you hit me now I have to recover low with my predictable and punishable recovery. And because my recovery is so punishable, I fear actually trying to edge guard offstage cause if I miss anything (one or two successful air dodges will do it), now you're in a better position and my recovery is not going to be able to deal with it. Monado Art Jump helps and lets me go in very deep but it doesn't change that I have to be precise with my aerials, that it doesn't magically give me an extra jump or let me change the path of Air Slash. So my recovery is still as punishable as ever.

Finally my approach game is super limited. I feel like I basically only have two decent approach options, which is nair and grab. Nair because its big, can catch dodges and has the lowest landing lag, and grab because I can get put you in pretty bad situations out of down or up throw, though down throw is the safer bet. Back throw ing you offstage is also pretty nice cause it sends you pretty far the stage, giving me time to think about how I want to act next. Any other approach option, being dash attack, walking tilts and walking jab are all easily beaten by just holding shield and then hitting me cause they all lag, which dtilt and jab having the lowest lag but are still punishable. Even with Monado Speed, I can run around like crazy, but my approach options are all the same and don't change the amount of lag I have to deal with, it just messes with your timing. It also lowers my jumping height which makes my already bad recovery even worse if you get me offstage.

TLDR: Shulk's range is not scary. The lack of actual active frames and lag on the moves makes them very easy to punish on whiff or block. Counter is good and gives me more counter options than other characters, has the same weaknesses as all the other counters and struggles to deal with airborne fighters. My recovery is garbage, predictable and easily beaten by any meaty attack, so I also don't like to go offstage unless I'm super confident I'll get the kill cause one mess up spells doom. Finally I don't have many ways to approach safely unless you're character isn't fast enough to deal with my range, or doesn't have range to match mine, cause all my moves lag.
 
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Thereflex

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
18
Location
Brooklyn NY
3DS FC
1993-8522-8888
The response to this thread has been amazing!I saw a similar thread on /r/leagueoflegends, and it lead to some great insight that i think players of all levels can really appreciate. Thanks guys!
 

TheBlossomingLily

Stitchface King
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
376
Location
Poulsbo, Washington
NNID
BlossomingLily
3DS FC
1736-0702-8981
I favorite kill I've ever nailed on For Glory was against a Peach. The player was just floating above me after coming on stage and I ended up double jumping all the way up to her for the knee kill. I shed a tear
I applaud you for your ballsy approach of manliness for that knee. May you continue to land those knees. *salute*
 

xXShadeXx

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Messages
304
Location
Why do you care?
Switch FC
SW-3241-7928-4020
Maining Ness and TLink. Wall of text time.

With Ness, if you have no projectile game, I usually let you approach me. Most of the time I will use PK fire to trap you. If you don't shield or get out of it, be prepared for a d-throw to 2 f-air or more. Most of the time, I push you all the way out of the stage. If you approach with a dash attack or aerial, I usually push you back with a n-air myself. If you get caught in my PK fire, don't assume I'm going to go for a grab because high chance is I'll read your roll and either use a dash attack or a f-air or n-air. I love to mainly stay in the air with Ness, so good timed spot dodges and shield grabs will be your friend in this case. If I manage to get you in the air by either grab or u-air, be prepared for my PK Thunder juggles. Your best best is to spot dodge and land away from me, because if I read where you're going to land, you're going to get hit with a PKT2. Sometimes I'll even double jump to PK flash so be prepared for that. I rarely use my u-smash and d-smash, but don't forget about them.

If I get you off the stage, I mainly bait your dodge or jump with PK Thunder, then I'll hit you with either a n-air or u-air depending on where you are. If you're recovering from below, I'll PK Thunder you. Don't assume that because I'm bringing you towards the stage, I'm saving you, because I usually use n-air which knocks you fairly far off the stage, so try and vector away from me if you can. That or a bait you with a PK flash. I'll either release it at the ledge, or read you and bring it towards myself and release for an easy K.O. So, if you have a counter, I'd use that, but be warned if your counter moves you (Shulk, Lucario, LM, etc). Why? I'll PK Thunder you in the opposite direction of the stage so you'll fly off.

When you get me off the stage, I'm pretty easy to K.O if you read me right. If I'm recovering from above, 9/10 I'm going to shoot PK Fire at you to prevent you from hitting me further. So a good shield, and aerial will knock me quite far. Sometime's I'll even use PK Thunder to keep you at bay before landing, but I use it near the ledge so I can cancel it to grab the ledge. Read me right, and you can get a good f-smash on me. If I'm recovering from below, I usually use PKT 2 into the stage before using PKT2 again to actually grab the ledge, so be careful because you could get caught into the second PK Thunder into my PKT2.

Be aware that if you do shoot projectiles at me, I use my bat to an advantaged to reflect it back at you, so watch out. And I don't overuse my b-throw to K.O you, so be wary of all my aerial attacks. And I use my d-tilt to an advantage to trip you into a grab combo, so be warned.

TLink...not much to worry about except my projectiles. Be aware of my u-tilt as that can rack up damage if your character is heavy enough. I also use my hookshot to poke at your shield and catch you off guard so be warned. When you're offstage, I throw all my projectiles at you to try and make an opening for either a n-air or f-air. When I'm off stage, I throw mainly bombs at you, so read me right and you can get a good d-air or f-air on me. I rarely use my d-air. If I'm at the top of the screen, be warned as I drop (not throw) bombs at you to try and make an opening for an u-air. So I wouldn't chase me unless your character is fast enough to get to me before I have a chance to get a bomb out. And at high percentage, be aware as my b-throw is strong enough to K.O this time around. And if I read your roll, high chance is I'm going to u-special you. And when I'm recovering. Also be aware as I sometime purposely let my u-special go higher than the ledge so that I can knock you away. Again, I space my d-tilts just right to catch you off guard as well.
 

Zero Suit Roxas

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 19, 2014
Messages
69
Location
Ohio
NNID
LeBabbo
3DS FC
0748-1742-4057
I'm a Zero Suit Samus main, myself.

I usually start attacking with a ton of Paralyzer shots, so I can try to keep people away. I also like using my down special to either deal decent damage or bury opponents to start a combo. If I stun an opponent I usually try using my up special or side smash. Sometimes I miss, which leaves me very open for punishment. Most of ZSS's KO moves leave her open for a little bit after she uses them. This is the chance to come in!

I find that using projectiles can be useless or devastating against ZSS, depending on how you use them. If you spam a ton of them in a few seconds, they can throw her off her game. If you use one while she runs at you, she'll probably use her down special to jump over it and then deal a rather powerful kick right in your face. This might even KO you. Reflecting her Paralyzer shots back at her is something that is difficult for her to get around. She'll only expect it if you do it frequently. After that, she'll probably use her down smash to try stunning you instead.

Her speed is one of her strong points, and when you combine this with her ability to stop opponents for a few seconds she can deal heavy damage in a short amount of time. If you don't let her get close enough to zap you, you should be safe from her. If you want to outspeed her, you need to dodge frequently. This will let you attack from behind. Shielding a lot should also keep you safe from Paralyzer shots or her down special kick, especially the latter. In fact, when she does this, you should always shield. If she kicks, she gets some moderate landing lag, where you can start your own combo against her. If she doesn't kick, she jumps off the top of your head. Though she's a bit harder to reach when she does this, it's not impossible to get to her.

As for her KO moves, she does have her up special, down special (for two purposes), and her side smash. Her up special kicks the opponent into the air (up to eight times!) and then finishes with a spinning kick. The spinning kick has serious knockback, where it can start KO-ing people at around 80%. This move is hard to get out of, but not impossible. If she misses, she can be heavily punished. Her down special can KO people when she kicks at around 70%, though it's somewhat easily avoidable. She can also meteor smash people with this move if she doesn't kick at around 60%. Her side smash can deal a lot of damage, and can KO at around 100%.

This looks like it's just about what you need to know!
 

kyxsune

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
248
3DS FC
2423-2660-2706
I'm a Zero Suit Samus main, myself.
In fact, when she does this, you should always shield. If she kicks, she gets some moderate landing lag, where you can start your own combo against her. If she doesn't kick, she jumps off the top of your head. Though she's a bit harder to reach when she does this, it's not impossible to get to her.


This looks like it's just about what you need to know!
I disagree on the constant shield, It leaves you open to her sweet extended grabs.

Else nice detailed count of strategy and initiators.
 
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BBC7

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
667
Location
Canada, Ontario
I'm a Zero Suit Samus main, myself.

[Read original post, I don't want to quote the whole thing because it's pretty long]

This looks like it's just about what you need to know!
I play Mega Man, and we actually found that Mega's Jab/F-Tilt/Nair and Rush Coil are hell for ZSS. The lemons beat out the paralyze shots regardless of how long they've been charged, and Mega Man can Rush Cancel out of F-Smash every single time. Considering only the second hit kills, this is a pretty big deal for us since that means ZSS basically has no kill moves on ground unless ZSS whiffs the first hit but connects the second. Not to mention that the lemons cause hitstun and you can't really punish them because of Jump Cancel which will let you continue shooting Nair and will help you react to a ZSS approaching from the air. Of course, ZSS is still a tough match-up for me despite this knowledge, and I don't quite know why. I found it interesting because everything you suggested actually works a little too much in my case.
 

Toon612Link

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
337
Location
Outset
I am a toon link main, Try not to approach me while I am not approaching you, your going to get a boomerang and arrow in the face, instead try make me fight you, if your good at angled air attacks use them but be careful I can throw my boomerang up there as well, If you have a reflecting move... like Robs, darkpits or falco's I will be encouraged not to throw the boomerang/arrow so much... but that doesn't mean I won't try to fake you out into using your reflector then hitting you.
Do not try your down air against my up air, You will lose every time, If you see me on the edge of the stage and your at 120% do not get grabbed by me or you will be instantly KOed. (remember I have a hookshot don't think I can't grab you from far away)
Also if you want an instant victory just pick:rosalina:
 
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Volimutt

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 19, 2014
Messages
61
Location
Some cave with wi-fi
NNID
CapnDonutBear
3DS FC
3840-8943-0914
Well as a :4bowser: main I'd say overwhelming speed and constant ranged harass are my weakness. Good examples of this are :4sonic: and :4duckhunt:. I'm often the first run after my opponent and then dodge roll backwards just to test the waters. I'll often shield alot so I'm most vulnerable to quick grabs. I also have the bad habit of making predictable dodge roll. (I really need to kick that habit. lol) If I successful spot dodge your attack, expect a quick Whirling Fortress so fast reaction is needed. Also when I have you off the stage I'll often go for the back air for the kill. You'll have to predict when I will throw out the B-air. If you have me in the air and pursue aggressively I will often meet you with a Bowser Bomb or Down air with has turned many games for me. But it's a very predictable and punishable trick and I NEED TO STOP IT. If I grab and back throw you I almost always follow up with a chase into Forward air hitting anyone who responds with their jump most the time. If you just let yourself fall to the ground, my combo is ruined.
 

Terotrous

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Messages
2,419
Location
Ontario
3DS FC
1762-2767-5898
:yoshi2:

The key to beating Yoshi is to challenge his attacks. He may be mobile, safe, and fairly strong, but his hitboxes are nothing to write home about. If you have a sex kick or any other aerial with a decent hitbox, you can basically just toss it out and freely trade with anything he does. He is also pretty free to swords and other disjoints. Pressure him with these attacks to force him into shield and get grabs, or at least build up his damage while he attacks you.

However, try not to be too obvious and don't hit his shield with anything too laggy, because OOS or Spot Dodge into Down B hits like a truck.

If Yoshi ever grabs you, hold up and mash jump to escape any possible follow-ups. In general this is the escape options against all of his combos, as they are all vertical in nature.
 
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