Can The Melee Meta go any further?

[KirinKQP]

Aside from just people being able to predict moves far ahead like in Chess and the idea of TAS perfection which is pretty much impossible, how can people get any better at the game? I'd like to think that not everything has been uncovered by players. The only thing that really comes to mind for me is utilizing V-canceling which is one of the newest tech discovered for a long time along with powershielding with the Z-button. What're your thoughts?

 

[Desseler]

Honestly, more camping. Defensive play in neutral can be insanely broken in certain matchups but very few players actually exploit it to its max.

 

[-ACE-]

The growth of the meta can only slow. It is ever-evolving.

 

[Sasori]

I think with the introduction of the smashbox and B0XX and if it is 100% legal, the meta MIGHT see a shift. Some characters may become more viable than before and could allow more than just the top 10 characters to be considered viable, which would show an explosion in more character variety. More match ups will need to be mastered.

 

[magicsixball]

Honestly, those below the top 10 play so predictably. They have a lot more they could be implementing in terms of mixups and on-the-spot adaptations. You shouldn't be falling for the same trick every time. They could also be doing more in terms of positioning themselves and covering options. The rest of the field has a long way to catch up honestly. I see the meta progressing towards emphasizing neutral once everyone develops strong punish games.

 

[Phillip Stratler]

I truly hope Melee doesn't turn into a hyper-defensive game. That's the last thing we need.

 

[Captain Phobos]

If we do get to the point where players read each other perfectly, some dumbass player could come in and do stupid counter intuitive stuff and they could take the top spot, like how Mango overthrew Mew2King in his era. From there, the cycle will just continue. The meta changes very slowly, but I don't think it'll ever be a 20XX.

 

[JagerCrush]

I don't wanna say more defensive options and less aggressive playstyles could develop to improve the meta so I'll say a more PPMDesque approach to the game. You can be patient yet still not be lame/campy. Melee is still a fast game and most people still have an aggressive playstyle.

While most players typically stick with one character I could see an increase in dual mains or secondaries (in Sm4sh secondaries or even tertiaries are very common). People need a consistent way to beat certain matchups like floaties/icies so we've things like Shroomed's Marth or Axe's Young Link. Then you also have things like Chudat's Puff to counter M2K's Peach. There have been signs of success with high level players using secondaries. So I think there may be some room for more players to dual main. Not just because of a character matchup but also because of a particular person's playstyle or stage.

 

[CaptainBlund]

I just hope we don't end up in a situation like 64, where the meta becomes playing ultra defensively until you can get your zero-to-death in.

 

[-ACE-]

I just hope we don't end up in a situation like 64, where the meta becomes playing ultra defensively until you can get your zero-to-death in.

Melee doesn't work that way. You have nothing to worry about.

 

[Reyjavik]

What has the meta been since the start of the game? I've been trying to get better by understanding the changes in thinking and playstyles since the start but its hard to find in a condensed/easily understandable way.
Just like a brief overview.

 

[-ACE-]

What has the meta been since the start of the game? I've been trying to get better by understanding the changes in thinking and playstyles since the start but its hard to find in a condensed/easily understandable way.
Just like a brief overview.

Ease of punish game and winning neutral with minimal technical skill reigned supreme initially. Sheik was the best character for a bit.

Slowly DI skills developed, and punish game became more demanding, but neutral still sucked so a strong punish alone game got you very far.

Now, it's neutral, neutral, neutral. We know DI, we know punishes, we know recovery, edgeguarding, techchasing, etc etc.

I'm mostly talking top level.

 

[Sempai]

Honestly, more camping. Defensive play in neutral can be insanely broken in certain matchups but very few players actually exploit it to its max.

Get out. We dont like your kind here.


Dont ruin my game plz.

 

[BagrB0y]

The meta generally changes slowly, and it has been. The meta also doesn't just pertain to what characters people are picking or what tech are used, but also how people play specific matches.

For instance at EVO there was a VERY weird (but entertaining) Marth v. Fox match in the top 8 or top 16 (I BELIEVE it was M2K vs. Leffen, but not sure), and I remember at one point one of the commentators was saying "This match is just going so hard against the current meta for this matchup" - or something along those lines.

This can be REALLY small things, maybe its just something like Fox/Falco players preferring to go for lazer - nair instead of lazer - dair approaches. Its generally pretty hard to tell as it happens, but if you look back to even like EVO 2014 you can see some differences in how people play.

 

[KirinKQP]

^

That's actually a good point. How back then our common follow-ups and options are slightly adjusted. Perhaps it may be easier to plan what moves you can do far ahead and pick the ones with the best damage or leads into a favorable edge guard situation or something. In this, the meta might become more like Chess, where everything you do has a strong impact on the game and the player's thoughts.

 

[Reyjavik]

Yea. I've been working on movement options and optimizing offense but have had a hard time coming up with a way to solidify defense.
Its hard to practice DI by myself and I sometimes don't know if I'm doing it right.

I've been trying to think more though like chess but that's also hard to do by self and just practising against 20XX Fox.
Any opinions in how to train in today's meta? I try to put in 1 hour of practice every day, usually just doing matches against the 20XX Fox

 

[KirinKQP]

Without a person who is as good as you or better can be problematic. To get into today's meta, you have to, well, fight the meta. A 20XX isn't too good to practice against because of their insane tech skill and reactions, especially Fox. Those bots are basically meant to show you what it's like to play at higher speeds. Even with the option to change their DI and tech options, humans are not random and have patterns that you're suppose to catch on to.

20XX Fox, from experience, does shine the instant he fan when you're inside of him. If you do some follow up or tech chase and he doesn't blast you out, that could mean you are doing it correctly.

 

[BagrB0y]

^

That's actually a good point. How back then our common follow-ups and options are slightly adjusted. Perhaps it may be easier to plan what moves you can do far ahead and pick the ones with the best damage or leads into a favorable edge guard situation or something. In this, the meta might become more like Chess, where everything you do has a strong impact on the game and the player's thoughts.

Im not necessarily commenting on prediction or Melee possibly being played like Chess (which TBH I see as more of a theoretical comparison as Chess has no execution difficulty mechanically or technically that can effect it). I just found it worth noting that the meta also pertains to how people play。

 

[StrayDog]

metagame moreso consists of popular strategies for winning and developing strategies to counter those. when the counterstrategies become more popular than the strategies they counter then a new meta strategy emerges to counter that. simply put, it will most likely never end, unless a "master strategy" i.e. a strategy that can only be beaten by a better executed iteration of the same strategy, becomes developed.

for example suppose your local was cracked open by a fox with a runaway laser strategy. he showed that it was easier to beat some of the better players in your local with that strategy than by playing a more aggressive fox (which had been thoroughly countered by your local's floaties.) now more foxes start to adopt that style and forming an anti-laser camping strategy becomes necessary. as this becomes more developed, laser camping naturally becomes less prevalent because it produces fewer results. certain techniques may be popular in a certain meta for their effectiveness in executing a certain strategy, but metas are not defined by techniques, they are defined by strategy. even if no more techniques are ever discovered, the meta will still change.

 

[KEYLIME SSB]

Eventually we'll hit TAS levels of gameplay perfection and matches will be decided solely by punishes for missed l cancels and port priority.

 

[BagrB0y]

Eventually we'll hit TAS levels of gameplay perfection and matches will be decided solely by punishes for missed l cancels and port priority.

Theoretically? Yeah. Practically? Uhhhh no.... Theres too much individual playstyle / personality, and its unrealistic for players to be able to attain / maintain TAS level of gameplay perfection- There are simply too many variables at that point for the human brain to keep track of (in short term memory).

 

[BagrB0y]

Also if we are to assume TAS levels of perfection, then missing a L cancel makes no sense- The level of perfection would be significantly above that of getting 100% of L cancels.

Assuming TAS level of perfection, games at the absolute highest level would be based solely on mindgames, reads, matchups, etc.

Either that or a melee bot with 0 reaction time would dominate.

 

[Milky2Milk]

I don't think Melee's meta can evolve any more than it's current state. The only exception would be if a gamechanging new tech was discovered.

A new style of play might also evolve the meta.



I don't think anyone will get to 20XX levels of perfection due to human limitations and hand problems.

So lets hope someone finds a new strategy soon...

 

[SquizzleMaster]

^

That's actually a good point. How back then our common follow-ups and options are slightly adjusted. Perhaps it may be easier to plan what moves you can do far ahead and pick the ones with the best damage or leads into a favorable edge guard situation or something. In this, the meta might become more like Chess, where everything you do has a strong impact on the game and the player's thoughts.

People are adjusting follow-ups not cause theyre better, but because its less predictable and mixes up the deck a bit. Eventually Fox-Falco might revert back to laser>dair, because people adjust to expect laser>nair. The meta isnt gonna stop, but whether or not it gets "better" is questionable. I think that the top players have just about uncovered most things possible with the top tiers, and the only thing i can think about that might shift that is a guy who mains a mid to low tier character blowing up the scene, like what Armada did for Peach, and Mango and HBox did for Puff
Edit: Was looking through other threads, and post above mine mentions a new play strategy, that'd mix the meta up too

 

[BagrB0y]

People are adjusting follow-ups not cause theyre better, but because its less predictable and mixes up the deck a bit. Eventually Fox-Falco might revert back to laser>dair, because people adjust to expect laser>nair. The meta isnt gonna stop, but whether or not it gets "better" is questionable. I think that the top players have just about uncovered most things possible with the top tiers, and the only thing i can think about that might shift that is a guy who mains a mid to low tier character blowing up the scene, like what Armada did for Peach, and Mango and HBox did for Puff
Edit: Was looking through other threads, and post above mine mentions a new play strategy, that'd mix the meta up too

Another possibility is if people discover tech that could make mid tiers more relevant, or if people push mid/low tiers to the max (like aMSa or TripleR with Yoshi / Kirby)

 

[Milky2Milk]

Another possibility is if people discover tech that could make mid tiers more relevant, or if people push mid/low tiers to the max (like aMSa or TripleR with Yoshi / Kirby)

That's a really good point.



Maybe in a few years the tier list will be completely different and low tiers will climb to the top because of new tech that has been discovered.

is a good example of a character who could become top tier or high tier in the future if people like aMSa keep experimenting with him.

Maybe all characters will be viable in the future... Who knows.

 

[BagrB0y]

That's a really good point.



Maybe in a few years the tier list will be completely different and low tiers will climb to the top because of new tech that has been discovered.

is a good example of a character who could become top tier or high tier in the future if people like aMSa keep experimenting with him.

Maybe all characters will be viable in the future... Who knows.

It seems very unlikely to me that all low tiers could ever be equally viable (think about it- That requires untapped potential or tech to combat things like Fox shine on EVERY character).

However, one thing worth considering is the more meta shifts towards a small group of (or a single) character, the more unexpected picks (Bowser, Yoshi, Pikachu, etc.) become favorable as people have less experience against them at a high level and its easier for them to get experience against the top tier / tiers at a high level.

 

[Milky2Milk]

It seems very unlikely to me that all low tiers could ever be equally viable (think about it- That requires untapped potential or tech to combat things like Fox shine on EVERY character).

However, one thing worth considering is the more meta shifts towards a small group of (or a single) character, the more unexpected picks (Bowser, Yoshi, Pikachu, etc.) become favorable as people have less experience against them at a high level and its easier for them to get experience against the top tier / tiers at a high level.

True,



There are lots of low tier characters who could become high or mid tier, but most are there for a reason: they can't deal with better characters options. But and went up the tier list in the early years of Melee, the same might be happening now with right now. I think that in a few years, there will be at least one unexpected high tier, (Out of characters like , ,,, and .)

These characters are already quite good, so I could see them as high tier in the future.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Better neutral play; please play defensive sometime. Play more to win.

 

[SquizzleMaster]

That's a really good point.



Maybe in a few years the tier list will be completely different and low tiers will climb to the top because of new tech that has been discovered.

is a good example of a character who could become top tier or high tier in the future if people like aMSa keep experimenting with him.

Maybe all characters will be viable in the future... Who knows.

Biggest tech I can think of that might give a low tier a ton of competitive use is the Super Yoyo. If somehow someone manages to uncover how to do it consistently
, Ness might be the highest tiered character in the game until the glitch gets banned.

 

[EmptyNess]

people don't realize that "the meta" often can be attributed to a handful of players

as new players with different styles come up and older players drop out the game will change