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Can someone explain to me how I should play sheik in neutral?

Creede

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 8, 2015
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Creede73
Exactly what the title says. What moves should I use? How should I bait an opponent to throw a laggy move? Should I find out what the opposing player does most? What happens if the player I'm playing against is mixing his/her game up to the point I can't read him/her? How should I try to wall out an opponent to then go in on a mistake? Or should I even do that? I know sheik is hyped-aggresive but I also know I shouldn't mindlessly approach.

I seriously appreciate all feedback on this, and even the neutral game in general. I understand what neutral is, but I for sure do not understand neutral, if that makes sense.
 

Tristan_win

Not dead.
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edit: I apologize for any grammar errors I sort of just started writing and threw all cation to the wind.

The first things I need to talk about before going into Neutral is zones, each character has a area around them or zone where they are strong. This is decided by how much reach their moves have, how fast the move comes out and how much cool down the move has.

So for example Sheik Ftilt is a great spacing move as it's quick coming out in 5 frames, it covers a decent distance in front of Sheik and if space correctly it's safe on shield. When someone is in this Zone (tipper Ftilt range) and they don't have a better option like for example Little Mac Ftilt they are in a weaker position and have to move. That's the super very basics of zoning but your question is on neutral.

Well Neutral to put it simply is what happens before Zoning, sometimes though the two are almost one and the same. What I mean by that are projectiles. Sheik needles are even after the nerf they are still arguably one of the best projectiles in the game and the reason why is their speed. I believe it's 16 14 frames ( @Wasserwipf help) for needle storm to cross 1/4 of final destination so if anyone is in that range they WILL get hit by ground needle storm unless they are either expecting it or were already about to shield.

What this means to you? Well try to pretend that Sheik needles aren't a projectile but a long range poke, whenever your opponent enters your range you poke them until they learn to respect you. Once they learn to respect the needles they will change their play by either jumping over the needles or ground themselves by shielding both of which are options you want. The real trick is learning what characters can punish you for trying to poke them by jumping over your needles.

However we can't we most likely shouldn't just run away and throw needles all day so what should we do? Well there's 5 options in total

1. Throw needles
2. Walk
3. Dash or Run
4. Dance
5. Punish

I've already touch on needles so I'll move onto walk. Walking as plain as it sounds give Sheik the most options, you can instantly shield, dodge or use any of your attacks so in a perfect world it's always the BEST option but in our imperfect world it has 1 weakness and that's you are easier to predict. However that in it's self can be useful. Walking up to your opponent only to enter dash grab range and then stop can really make people feel unconformable and you want that. There no trick just you forcing your will on them and making THEM react to you.

Running is the option most people like to do because it helps make things more interesting and if your fast enough it can make your opponent mess up. For example if your running toward a Marth and he decides to do something dumb like fsmash and you shield you just got yourself a free punish. Running or dashing is used to put direct pressure on your opponent and is very aggressive. I can't stress it enough though that running and dash usually depends on your opponent messing up. Dashing into shield, running into grab, dash into rising fair only to retreat out of grab range, even just running though your opponent and doing nothing to them are options when it comes to this.

But that's the same for almost everyone really, however Sheik has 3 tools that make her running game better and that's her fantastic long fox trot, super quick (5 frames) long reach dash attack, and good dash grab. To fully master Sheik neutral and zoning game you have to master these tools.

I've mention it a few times now about frames here's a little crash course.

1 frame = 1/60th of a second. So every 60 frames = 1 second in time. This is how the game process what's happens in the game and how it is displayed on the screen.
Competitive gamers reactions are usually around the 13-15 frame. What this means is that for attacks that are faster then 15 frames it's impossible for your opponent to react fast enough. So with options like our 5 frame dash attack once you enter range they will almost always begin to shield before you input the attack. I'm not talking about before the attack hits but before the attack even begins.

So when it comes to dash attack it's important to learn the max range of the attack and then view it as another form of poke. The same could be said for Dash grab as it comes out on frame 9 which you can extend the range of with a dash cancel grab but that's it's own thing.

One more thing I would like to bring up is how you can dash into dash attack which can increase the range but also can be used to surprise a opponent as there's a large window where you can input the dash attack command.

Moving onto dancing what I mean really is empty movement that can briefly put you in a position of disadvantage or not. This can range from the typical dash dancing, empty short hopping, fox trotting back and forth (my personal favorite since you can shorten fox trots) or whatever you want. The idea about this is to be misleading. Precise spacing is so important in smash so by dancing around it makes it difficult for your opponent to get a solid read on where your going to be so your objective is for them to take a swing at you which will allow you to punish or to mind game them into thinking they will know where you will be and then punishing them.

There's a lot more to it then just this but I'm running out of energy for writing this out.

Punishment is by far the easiest to explain, basically needles, dash attack and bouncing fish all have outrageous range and can be used to punish simple mistakes. Your opponent is about to throw a projectile or just did? Bouncing fish them. They think they can run at you? Needle storm. What they think they can touch the ground near you? Dash attack them.

It's all about punishing mistakes your opponents make and making sure to keep a eye out for them.


TL;DR

Make them come to you
Walk toward them if you want to be safe
Dance around if you want them to make a mistake
Punish them for being stupid and know what to look for.

Edit:
This subject falls into the realm of Theory Bro's so I can go a bit more in depth into any section if you want.
 
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Creede

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 8, 2015
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Location
California
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Creede73
@ Tristan_win Tristan_win I am unable to show my gratitude for your response with just a like. This is beyond helpful, and I appreciate you taking the time to post a pretty detailed post like this.

A few things, what is a shortened fox trot?

More importantly, how do all the stages of the game (neutral, zoning, etc.) blend together?

EDIT: I googled Theory bros but couldn't find anything... what exactly is it?
 
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Tristan_win

Not dead.
Joined
Aug 7, 2006
Messages
3,845
Location
Currently Japan
@ Tristan_win Tristan_win I am unable to show my gratitude for your response with just a like. This is beyond helpful, and I appreciate you taking the time to post a pretty detailed post like this.

A few things, what is a shortened fox trot?

More importantly, how do all the stages of the game (neutral, zoning, etc.) blend together?

EDIT: I googled Theory bros but couldn't find anything... what exactly is it?
I'm sadly unable to find the thread that taught me this but when you are fox trotting back and forth the timing isn't super strict and it can be delayed. Because of this you can do the long version of the fox trot at the beginning and then switch to a shorten version or mix up whenever you want. It's pretty easy to see just start fox trot back and forth in training mode begin slowly and then steadily increase the speed.

How do they all blend together? HMMM, I guess seamlessly? I don't think I understand your question. You begin the match in neutral and try to either force them into one of your zones with things like needles and walking toward them or you try to invade their zone by some form of running and or dancing in and out of their zone until you can punish them. Once you do manage to punish them the amount of possible scenario's is based on such things like what attack you used, what % they are at, how did they DI, what % you are at, current stage location and how skill your opponent is. Generally speaking you always want your opponent either directly above you or about a fox trot distance in front or behind you in the air.... I guess you could call this stage in the game Control as if you say started a combo they wouldn't have any option to avoid it besides DI. After that things go back into either neutral again or zoning depending on how far away you are once they regain control of their character . I guess the other other stage of the game is edge guarding.

To be perfectly honest I just see the game as being in Neutral and zoning with everything else falling into a sub category in zoning.



Theory Bro's is the name I've given lovingly to either pure theory crafting or when testing something at such a extreme that it's almost like we aren't playing the same game anymore.

Anything TAS does a great job demonstrating when pushing the game to the limits how the impossible suddenly become possible

A Tool-Assisted Speedrun (frequently abbreviated TAS) is a speedrun movie or performance of a video game produced by means of emulation such as slow motion or frame-by-frame advance of the gameplay, and re-recording of previous portions of a performance.

example A: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8p-CYk7lwQ

Everything in that video is technically possible but it's not humanly possible, at least not on that scale.
 
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