Can someone critique me? vs Puff

[Fashion_Panther]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt3NEo-Cpd0

It's difficult to obviate rests because of puffs godlike duck/crouch. This problem is compounded by the fact that sheik can't make puff pay an even remotely proportionate price for missing rests--most puffs feel free to snooze with impunity vs sheik because the risk/reward is skewed so heavily in their favor. But even ignoring that, this is really, really difficult. Sheiks zoning tools simply don't match up well against puff's aerials, and puff's enormous advantage in aerial mobility gives her a sizeable edge in neutral.

I guess I should throw more needles? what do ya'll see

 

[Shrug]

I haven't watched the video, but I have a few general tips for this matchup.

Crouch is definitely troublesome, but it does have its limitations. While she's crouching, she has very few options for hitting you. She has to stand up to grab/ftilt/uptilt/jab, and and all of these options still involve her being stationary. The effective range of her options out of crouch is fairly small, and wavedashing can only slightly mitigate this limitation.

This means that in order to hit you, she's probably going to want to be in the air. While Puff's bair is amazing, it's not unbeatable. Because of the angle of Sheik's leg when she bairs, you can kind of sneak under Puff and hit her without getting hit by the large horizontal hitbox of her bair.

Dealing with Puff's aerial game requires an understanding of where she's comfortable. Like most characters, Puff doesn't want to be directly above you. You can run under her if she's high up enough and make things difficult for her. She also has 5 aerial jumps, which is something you need to keep track of. As she depletes her jumps, she is going to need to come down. If you remain below her, you can punish her need to land very effectively.

Needles can be really great in this matchup since it gives you a way to force Puff to approach while also giving you a fairly safe way of tacking on damage. You can throw aerial needles at crouching Puff to get her to stop crouching or at least move. Jab -> fair can also be really good at higher percents if you are having trouble landing grabs. I have also found that running down smash (crouch out of run -> down on c-stick) can be good against her crouch (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I have not been rested for down smashing Puff when she has been crouching or shielding against it). It's also a good way to hit her off the stage if you know she is coming in to land and has depleted her jumps.

This is a matchup I have struggled with in the past, and I have recently been theorycrafting some of the above stuff. I hope it helps you with the matchup a bit.

 

[Scroll]

I haven't watched the video, but I have a few general tips for this matchup.

Crouch is definitely troublesome, but it does have its limitations. While she's crouching, she has very few options for hitting you. She has to stand up to grab/ftilt/uptilt/jab, and and all of these options still involve her being stationary. The effective range of her options out of crouch is fairly small, and wavedashing can only slightly mitigate this limitation.

This means that in order to hit you, she's probably going to want to be in the air. While Puff's bair is amazing, it's not unbeatable. Because of the angle of Sheik's leg when she bairs, you can kind of sneak under Puff and hit her without getting hit by the large horizontal hitbox of her bair.

Dealing with Puff's aerial game requires an understanding of where she's comfortable. Like most characters, Puff doesn't want to be directly above you. You can run under her if she's high up enough and make things difficult for her. She also has 5 aerial jumps, which is something you need to keep track of. As she depletes her jumps, she is going to need to come down. If you remain below her, you can punish her need to land very effectively.

Needles can be really great in this matchup since it gives you a way to force Puff to approach while also giving you a fairly safe way of tacking on damage. You can throw aerial needles at crouching Puff to get her to stop crouching or at least move. Jab -> fair can also be really good at higher percents if you are having trouble landing grabs. I have also found that running down smash (crouch out of run -> down on c-stick) can be good against her crouch (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I have not been rested for down smashing Puff when she has been crouching or shielding against it). It's also a good way to hit her off the stage if you know she is coming in to land and has depleted her jumps.

This is a matchup I have struggled with in the past, and I have recently been theorycrafting some of the above stuff. I hope it helps you with the matchup a bit.

Sounds promising. I'd love to see you play some puff of your own level. Could you record a match or two?

 

[Shrug]

A Puff main who is two spots above me on our PR is coming to our next fest (Monday). I'll record a serious 3/5 set. Don't expect too much, though. I'm still not that good.

 

[Scroll]

Sounds good Shrug!
Meanwhile Fashion_Panther here did a pretty good job if you ask me. I don't know much about the Puff MU though. But your fundamentals and tech skill seems very solid. Sick needle ledge hogs O.o
How long have you been playing?

 

[BO/\K]

Sheik puff is one of my favorite MUs. I'll CP Puffs with Sheik if I feel my fox isn't playing the MU well.

Some useful things that I didn't see you do:

- you used fair in neutral a lot but never bair. Spaced bairs are really good in this MU, as are crossed up nairs on shield but that's trickier. Bair can safely poke at puff and it can beat out her moved sometimes due to its angle
- needles for damage and edgeguards are good in the MU but sometimes it's worth to hold onto a full sleeve of needles for defensive purposes. When recovering high (which I didn't see you do) you can throw the sleeve of needles to stuff the puff and give you a chance to recover
- you played the ledge against puff a lot. This is good because sheik can definitely get something out of this, but you used ledgehop bairs a lot and it didn't work out for you because up close it soft hits. If you ledgehop nair instead it would have been better. Ledgehop nair is really good in this MU
- At mid and high percents downsmash can be good against a grounded puff. At low percents it'll get you punished but once it knocks down and beats CC it's a good tool

 

[Fashion_Panther]

Thanks Tripzilla! I've been playing for five years, but have never consistently attended tournaments.

Thank you to BO/K and Shrug as well. I agree, bair, is definitely a big part of what I'm not doing. It's so easy to get used to sheiks fair beating absolutely everything that it almost gets hard to recognize the rare occasion where it isnt the best option.

Shrug, can you tell me anything more about how to beat her bair with my bair? You said it was an angle slightly below her, do you know of a set on youtube where a sheik does it to a puff?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Spacing fairs is not very effective air-to-air, especially at low percents when it won't kill anyway. Bair has considerably more range, and is safer to crouch cancels at low percents if spaced properly. Try to use bair in neutral to poke Jiggs out of her aerial approaches. When she's grounded, spaced fairs on her shield are useable. Build up damage with needles, aerials, and grab combos IF you can land the grabs. Don't force grabs, as Puff will duck and rest you if you go for them in an obvious fashion.

Don't f-tilt. Its not very rewarding and is easy for Puff to punish with fair/bair out of shield. She can even CC punish them.

Use more wavedash out of shield to maneuver around her hitboxes in neutral/when cornered/when at frame disadvantage.

Just try to needle camp her, avoid fighting her if it would be unfavorable. Get her to high percents and kill her with a spaced aerial, or grab combo if she allows it.

 

[phili]

Thanks Tripzilla! I've been playing for five years, but have never consistently attended tournaments.

Thank you to BO/K and Shrug as well. I agree, bair, is definitely a big part of what I'm not doing. It's so easy to get used to sheiks fair beating absolutely everything that it almost gets hard to recognize the rare occasion where it isnt the best option.

Shrug, can you tell me anything more about how to beat her bair with my bair? You said it was an angle slightly below her, do you know of a set on youtube where a sheik does it to a puff?

Actually if you watch Shroomed vs Hbox from Apex 2015, you see Shroomed using a ton of SH bairs in neutral to space out puff. This tactic worked really well early on in the set, although he kind of abandoned the strategy later on in the set. Also, Hbox does end up winning the set, but it's still a very good example of how bair can be used effectively in this matchup.

The video can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqz3Is1j9kw

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

-Use more needles (aerial). A LOT more
Whenever you can, charge needles because Puff beats you in the air.
-Do not attempt to shieldgrab
-Jab to shieldpoke when puffs shield is low (Puff's shield is terrible)
-Dsmash is good unless she is at very low percent
-Remember to CC to avoid being nair-rested
-Do not overcommit with fair as puff has superior aerial mobility, you tried to approach with fair way too much
-Use more bair in neutral as opposed to fair (safer)

You NTSC kids do not know how spoiled you are

E:

Read the thread and realized I contributed absolutely nothing that has not been said already, oh well

 

[Splendid]

-As soon as game 1 starts you immediately run away and abandon all of the center stage you got. Needle camping is not the answer for neutral, nor are your grounded dash attacks. Use aerials and needles in order to aggressively maintain center stage. CENTER STAGE IS HUGE
-Unless it's at a low percent, ftilt won't lead into anything; Puff is too floaty. The only things you can get followups (fairs or uairs) off of in this matchup are dthrows, dtilts, and at high percents jabs (I guess there are also maybe dairs and maybe utilts? idk be creative)
-Needles are amazing--use them in the air to control space