Can Smash Bros be truly competitive without Wavedashing?

[ZainreFang]

I think this is an interesting question to ask.

Melee is considered by the Smash community to be pretty synonymous with competitive Smash, and one of the big things with Melee is wavedashing. Of course there are other things like hitstun and L-cancelling and yadayada, but I feel like wavedashing is the cornerstone of what is considered to be competitive Smash. Look at Project M, it's designed almost chiefly for competitive players, and it brings back the Melee airdodge system and by extension, wavedashing.

The Melee Airdodging system is great for wavedashing, but when it comes to dodging aerial attacks or juggling, it's not very good. For that reason, I think that the Brawl airdodging system is more efficient for air dodging, but the Melee one is more efficient for wavedashing and allowing more options.

I hope to see some good input here, thanks.

 

[Xermo]

If two sides are playing at top level to win, then it's competitive. 64 (afaik) and brawl lacked wavedashing yet they did and still are thriving competitively. There's no such thing as being truly competitive.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Well, it's been working out pretty well so far in the competitive scene. Wavedashing is just a competitive supplement and is by no means required for any level of competitive play.

 

[RODO]

Can other games be competitive without wavedashing? What makes games competitive? If you think it through you'll find the answer is yes I'm sure.

 

[SuaveChaser]

There competive smash games without wavedashing that exist and that are played so yeah.

 

[ZelDan]

I mean, yeah. Wavedashing isn't the only thing that made Melee the great competitive game it is, and the lack of wavedashing ins't exactly one of the biggest issues Brawl had.

While I like wavedashing I wouldn't say it is the biggest/only determining factor in what makes a smash game competitive or not.

 

[JDP]

If two sides are playing at top level to win, then it's competitive. 64 (afaik) and brawl lacked wavedashing yet they did and still are thriving competitively. There's no such thing as being truly competitive.

I wouldn't say either of those games are "thriving" but I agree that they have a scene. Wave-dashing is not essential to competitive play but I do believe movement options are what makes the smash games more enjoyable. Because the newer smash games are more limiting in movement I do not enjoy them as much and therefore don't practice or compete in those games. That being said any game can be competitive as long as 2 or more people are playing to outperform the other(s).

 

[Naoshi]

Well, Wavedashing doesn't exactly make or break the competitive play of Smash. It's useful, sure, but it isn't the only thing Melee had going for it. I feel SSB4 can create a healthy competitive scene, a lot of the flaws that held Brawl back (such as randomness, tripping and just generally how slow the game is which killed the excitement) are not present in this one. Some issues with SSB4 aside, we just need to see what the game's scene can cook up in a year from now. It has potential.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Wavedashing had nothing to do with how competitively viable each game was.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Why do you need to make a thread around a circular, pointless question like this?

 

[ZainreFang]

Why do you need to make a thread around a circular, pointless question like this?

Wavedashing had nothing to do with how competitively viable each game was.

Wavedashing is brought up in pretty much every discussion about competitive Smash. Just look at the comparisons to wavedashing being made about perfect pivoting. Wavedashing is definitely something significant... You two may look at it as pointless, but I look at it as key. Imagine the backlash if they removed wavedashing from Project M to distinguish it from Melee. If Nintendo is to make a Smash that would be largely accepted by the competitive community, wavedashing is one of the things they would need to put in there. It's a hard decision though becuase the falling airdodge is better as an actual airdodge, but Melee airdodging is more of a tool to get to wavedashing. I never said it was the only reason, but it's a big one.

 

[ZainreFang]

Well, Wavedashing doesn't exactly make or break the competitive play of Smash. It's useful, sure, but it isn't the only thing Melee had going for it. I feel SSB4 can create a healthy competitive scene, a lot of the flaws that held Brawl back (such as randomness, tripping and just generally how slow the game is which killed the excitement) are not present in this one. Some issues with SSB4 aside, we just need to see what the game's scene can cook up in a year from now. It has potential.

I believe it has potential as well. It seems like people are wary about this new Smash because they can't pick it up and know it because they played the previous games. It changes the mechanics up. The edge mechanics in this game definitely change things a lot. I remember when I played Falco in the 3DS version and thought he was crap because he wasn't too much like previous Falcos, but once I actually started playing with him a lot, I saw what made him pretty good. The game just needs time to sit and people will realize what it brings to the table.

 

[Raijinken]

There are millions of competitive games in the world. Only (edit) a handful have wavedashing, and a lot of people still call one of them a party game compared to others.

Wavedashing has nothing to do with competition.

 

[Deleted member]

Melee is extremely competitive without Wavedashing and it was never necessary for it to be competitive.

 

[shapular]

I think the real question is can Smash Bros. be competitive with wavedashing? I'm not sure of the answer, but I'm leaning towards no.

There are millions of competitive games in the world. Only one has wavedashing, and a lot of people still call it a party game compared to others.

Wavedashing has nothing to do with competition.

That's not true. Tekken and MvC also have wavedashing.

 

[Quillion]

Sure it could!

There just needs to be a suitable replacement that is a REAL MECHANIC instead of forcing people to find a similar exploit/glitch.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Wavedashing is brought up in pretty much every discussion about competitive Smash. Just look at the comparisons to wavedashing being made about perfect pivoting. Wavedashing is definitely something significant... You two may look at it as pointless, but I look at it as key. Imagine the backlash if they removed wavedashing from Project M to distinguish it from Melee. If Nintendo is to make a Smash that would be largely accepted by the competitive community, wavedashing is one of the things they would need to put in there. It's a hard decision though becuase the falling airdodge is better as an actual airdodge, but Melee airdodging is more of a tool to get to wavedashing. I never said it was the only reason, but it's a big one.

Melee was a huge competitive scene before wavedashing was even prominent. Hell it was even passed off as unnecessary at first. Ken almost never used it at first when he was dominating the competitive Melee scene. Melee was competitive because it was the most responsive. No matter what you did everything fluidly replied to your inputs. Wavedashing was not a reason Melee became more competitive in the end: it simply became a big deal within an already developing competitive community. The reason newer techs are compared to it is because of the influence it later had but that isn't WHY a game can be more competitive or not. Brawl was less competitive because it wasn't fast and your inputs couldn't cancel previous ones as often as Melee where you really have more control. Brawl also lacked more roster balance. The worst characters and a good chunk of lower tiers are completely unusable whereas Melee has an ability, despite a very visible disadvantage, for lower tier to be usable. Armada and Axe have both competently used Young Link for instance against characters like Jigglypuff and other top tiers. Brawl is not like that. And Smash 4 will be competitive because lower tiers can be somewhat more viable as well as technical ability being much better than Brawl. If Brawl didn't have an insanely broken Meta Knight, tripping, and had slightly better balance between the best characters and worst ones I am certain it would still be thriving today.

Tl;dr, wavedashing was not a reason for competitiveness. Not even a little. It is simply a product of the already booming competitive scene. A game's overall technical ability with inputs is most important, and wavedashing was simply a product of that for Melee as Perfect Pivots are in Smash 4.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Also I would like to mention that Melee is far from my favorite Smash game, I'm just making comparisons.

 

[ZainreFang]

Melee was a huge competitive scene before wavedashing was even prominent. Hell it was even passed off as unnecessary at first. Ken almost never used it at first when he was dominating the competitive Melee scene. Melee was competitive because it was the most responsive. No matter what you did everything fluidly replied to your inputs. Wavedashing was not a reason Melee became more competitive in the end: it simply became a big deal within an already developing competitive community. The reason newer techs are compared to it is because of the influence it later had but that isn't WHY a game can be more competitive or not. Brawl was less competitive because it wasn't fast and your inputs couldn't cancel previous ones as often as Melee where you really have more control. Brawl also lacked more roster balance. The worst characters and a good chunk of lower tiers are completely unusable whereas Melee has an ability, despite a very visible disadvantage, for lower tier to be usable. Armada and Axe have both competently used Young Link for instance against characters like Jigglypuff and other top tiers. Brawl is not like that. And Smash 4 will be competitive because lower tiers can be somewhat more viable as well as technical ability being much better than Brawl. If Brawl didn't have an insanely broken Meta Knight, tripping, and had slightly better balance between the best characters and worst ones I am certain it would still be thriving today.

Tl;dr, wavedashing was not a reason for competitiveness. Not even a little. It is simply a product of the already booming competitive scene. A game's overall technical ability with inputs is most important, and wavedashing was simply a product of that for Melee as Perfect Pivots are in Smash 4.

Ha, well said. I agree with a lot of this.

 

[MAGMIS]

MAMA-MIA

Why is this even a thread Doc.

100% on vote.

 

[Raijinken]

I think the real question is can Smash Bros. be competitive with wavedashing? I'm not sure of the answer, but I'm leaning towards no.


That's not true. Tekken and MvC also have wavedashing.

My mistake, I figured it was probably Melee-specific terminology. I assume it isn't done by airdodging into the ground, at least. But the point is that it's unrelated to a game's competitive potential.

 

[Vaidya]

Yes, it can. If you need wave dashing to function, you suck at Smash, and can't call yourself a competitive player.

 

[shapular]

Brawl also lacked more roster balance. The worst characters and a good chunk of lower tiers are completely unusable whereas Melee has an ability, despite a very visible disadvantage, for lower tier to be usable.

Not really relevant to the topic, but this is backwards. Even Melee mid tiers are terrible.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Not really relevant to the topic, but this is backwards. Even Melee mid tiers are terrible.

Right on. SSBM only had roughly 7 competitive viable characters that most professionals used (Fox, Falco, Marth, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Sheik, and IC off the top of my head). The "Fox Only, Final Destination" stereotype comes to mind.

 

[Rajikaru]

Can Smash Bros truly be competitive with side-specials?

Can Smash Bros truly not be competitive with tripping?

All (not so) good questions that have obvious answers.

Right on. SSBM only had roughly 7 competitive viable characters that most professionals used (Fox, Falco, Marth, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Sheik, and IC off the top of my head). The "Fox Only, Final Destination" stereotype comes to mind.

Even then, IC was only usable because of an infinite glitch. 6 characters with actual true viability.

And of course there's the whole "Melee Falco is the closest to a true clone there's ever been in Smash" debacle that makes it 5.5, if you wanna get into that thing.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Is the Pope Catholic?
...There's your answer...

 

[Trekkerjoe]

Yes. Smash 4 is a game that does not rely on broken glitches and exploitations (for now), so more people have the chance to play competitively. Also wavedashing is (somewhat) in this game, as perfect pivoting. I'm going to have to get a better controller before I try it though, it has a huge deadzone that makes even simple techs impossible...

 

[Raijinken]

Right on. SSBM only had roughly 7 competitive viable characters that most professionals used (Fox, Falco, Marth, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Sheik, and IC off the top of my head). The "Fox Only, Final Destination" stereotype comes to mind.

You left out Peach. And worth noting is that the higher mid-tiers can be okay against the lower high-tiers, but it's been invariably Fox at the top for the game's entire competitive lifespan.

But more on-topic, competition simply requires a playerbase that desires to compete. The biggest two contributors to that are a deep game, and an enthusiastic crowd (which itself has preferences). Beyond a certain minimum level of depth, additional bells and whistles only serve to specialize the game further, both from the crowd perspective (spectators often like quick action above strategic depth, see League versus Dota) and the player's perspective (where aggression vs defensive vs balanced is all a matter of player preference without an objectively superior style).

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

It really is assuring to see that 99% of the people don't think wavedashing is needed for competition.

Especially since we have similar movement options with the new dash and pivot mechanics.


Also just gotta say. Hitstun =/= competitive. Fast paced =/= competitive. L-cancelling =/= competitive. Etc. They aren't necessary for a competitive game nor do they objectively make it more competitive. It alters the gameplay in a direction you may or may not like. There's competitive games all over the place between two extreme spectrums. Melee was just closer to one spectrum than most.

 

[SmashChu]

It's not an interesting question. The game can be competitive without it. 64, Brawl and 4 did fine without wavedashing.