Best approach to Fox vs. Samus Matchup

[Kaeon]

I think for a Fox with the most optimized movement options, these options are the most potent and reliable:

· When thinking vertically, airborne: back air/up air (fh), down air (sh), nair combos (sh+fh)

· When thinking vertically, grounded: kill moves/combos (ex. shine, upsmash)

· When thinking horizontally, airborne: neutral air (fh+sh), back air (mostly fh)

· When thinking horizontally, grounded: jab, ftilt

When I say vertically/horizontally I mean the kind of moves you would expect to be best if the characters are moved in that direction towards each other. Maybe look at how the zoom of the camera in this matchup relates to movement choices/timings or something to get what I'm saying.

Let me know what you think!

 

[krazyzyko]

Nice post! I have quite some trouble in this MU. I usually just camp with lasers and punish wifffs with stray aerials.

When thinking horizontal grounded: I think grab and drill shine so l don't get CC'ed.

 

[Kaeon]

Grab and drill shine (even running shine) are all methods that counter CC'ing, but because of the limited space these moves can cover effectively, they very much require a positioning read to execute properly. When it comes to Samus's ground game, jab/ftilt are much safer to cover her when she approaches. Whiffing a grab read can mean getting dsmashed offstage and killed. If you can convert grabs to death, I'd say it's totally worth it.

 

[Red Rice]

The best approach to samus is not to approach. She's not very fast and she's tall, SHDLs are so good against her and she'll have to approach. Powershield/shield/shine the missles. Samus has a terrible time approaching.

Never nair unless she's in the air or you know she's not CCing. Otherwise drill. Be careful if you choose to approach. Samus is a master of WD back > dsmash/fmsash etc.

note, you can't uthrow > uair samus. I opt to uthrow anyway and then bait the double jump, then I get a bair or something

 

[Kaeon]

Samus can be pretty effective at making you approach as well, though. She can have creative missile setups and may effectively be baiting you into shining, or even powershielding if they're good enough. Nair, bair, and even jab can all be really safe ways to neutralize those missile setups.

With proper conditioning you can nair without much retaliation, if you pick the right spots. Even if you hit shield with nair, you can shield to counter her up b, full hop to space bair on her up b or shield, or even mixup rolls/spotdodge/wd OoS to disengage or force reactions. Wavedash lag is pretty relevant to the choices Samus can make, and the less stage, the more easy it is to make movement reads and pressure her spacing.

Uthrow-->uair isn't guaranteed, sure, but if you can make them feel like jumping is less safe than nairing out of throw stun, it could very well connect, you'd be surprised.

 

[Kaeon]

As an aside, I do think that Fox's lasers are ultimately the better projectile. I just don't think it's enough to ignore the possible mixups that can arise from missiles.

 

[JKJ]

I feel like this is one of my best personal matchups, so as a result, I'll leave what I know here. I've played many different Samuses (Sami?) and have found it to be a very balanced and interesting matchup.

My normal tools are to DD just outside of her ftilt/ WD ftilt range (as that also keeps you out of her WD Dsmash range) and laser when she retreats from you (as she often will). If she does not retreat, and jumps, I like to nair through her and try to catch an uptilt off of the hit. If she pushes you with WD tilts, retreat until you are nearing the edge and jump over her with a fullhop drill. This should reset the situation. If she tries to upair you on the platforms (or above her on FD) then simply jump again (either SH on a platform or DJ if in the air). I play my entire game focused on getting beneath Samus. Continue DDing and jumping around her and lasering until she goes for a jumping missile, moves to a platform, or jumps at all. When she's in the air, just fish for a nair to uptilt or an uptilt in general. Once you get one uptilt, at low percent you get two or three. At higher percent, you get a SH upair. Once Samus is in the air, there is virtually nothing she can do save for trick you to get down. keep pestering her with upairs until she is forced to attempt to fall to a platform. Land and upsmash her. No aerial she has can beat it. This is how I get a majority of my kills on Samus; i either finish her with a stray upair as she falls or an upsmash as she lands.

Samus' recovery is another matter entirely. I recommend going for a ledgedrop shine when she grapples to the wall and tries to rise. If she is robbed of her grapple, edgeguarding her is a matter of rinse and repeat. Keep bairing her until she is forced to go for the ledge, then roll up. If she is on the ledge and trying to find her way up, she will do one of two things. She will either waveland on stage or fair onto the stage from the ledge. If she wavelands, dash dance upsmash while she is in lag from the waveland. If she fairs, dash over to her, crouch cancel the fair and shine her after it ends, then grab ledge. She will either panic up-b if she has no grapple, or grapple. If she grapples, you can shine her and start the process I detailed earlier.

That's pretty much all I have to say on the matter.

 

[krazyzyko]

Can we edgeguard her from below?
I know l can shine spike from the ledge but normally when l'm not is when she recovers low.

 

[JKJ]

If you mean when she is below you and you are not on the ledge? Yes, you can.

If she grapples to the wall (not perfectly to the ledge) she is forced to pop up. I like to downsmash this popup if I am not on the ledge (if I were, I would shine) and then grab ledge, as Samus is now offstage without a grapple. If she is too far away to up-b on stage, hold ledge and roll-up. If she isn't, bair from ledge, and rinse and repeat until she is too far to Up-B to the stage.

That's my best answer.

 

[Smokey Huntz]

I'm God awful at this MU so I appreciate all of this lol. My experience has been that the only safe time to hit samus is when she jumps

 

[JKJ]

That's basically my approach to the MU. I laser and camp until she jumps or goes for a missile. If she jumps, I get a hit and try to convert it into an uptilt or upair; if she shoots a missile, I try to jump over the missile and get a grab. Once I grab her, I either upthrow for positioning (as this frees you up to hit her as she falls), or downthrow if I feel i have a read on the tech and can upsmash (if she is at kill percent). Most of this MU is waiting and baiting. Oh, and Foxes: If she downsmashes your shield, you CAN Wavedash OoS and upsmash. You have enough time. Also, if she Ftilts your shield at close range, shine OoS will catch her leg. Obviously if she dash attacks or aerials into your shield, Upsmash OoS.

 

[Kaeon]

Samus isn't liable to get punished for simply being off the ground -- platforms can help her out, which can be inferred from FD being considered her weakest stage in the matchup. Perhaps on FD certain weaknesses are amplified, but if given the space (especially if you laser camp), Samus can use this opportunity to establish missile pressure. Ultimately I think laser pressure should be used to identify sequences that can be baited and punished accordingly.

Also, I respect f tilt super hard. Personally, I consider getting ftilted on shield an error on my end. I should have baited ftilt and punished with a dash cancelled shine, nair, or dair depending on what point in my forward dash I am in (of course platform heights and percents can be factored in, but I think this is superfluous and can detract from the punish). Depending on how much stage I have, I may retreat to the ledge, or preferably a platform, to avoid getting cornered by f tilt pressure, or instead make an aggressive read beforehand (read: randy nairs), because all sorts of tragedies can result from losing stage. In my experience you need a lot of space to effectively deal with f tilt. I feel this way because, correct me if I'm wrong, JC shine is the most surefire way to get her in times of uncertainty, and I don't want to deal with such demanding tech (when fighting an already really unforgiving character) when I can instead space more efficiently.

 

[rjgbadger]

Samus gets rekt by firefox stall to refresh invincibility and shine spike when she jumps, upB's, or grapple jumps

 

[Smokey Huntz]

I also don't think that laser camping samus is really possible I like to stay two characters lengths away but my aim is usually to catch jumps which it probably shouldn't be. But after she reaches 50 percent I try to go in hard cuz her crouch cancel ain't that big of a problem at that point