Balancing Final Smashes?

[muleet]

Hi. We can agree that any SSB that contains final smashes also has game mechanics that makes it sufficient to itself, making the final smashes quite obsolete. However it is still possible to balance the final smashes, just so it wouldn't be a weird item. Whether the PMBR should do it or not does not seem important to me, i'm only posting this to think about it.

So I think all final smashes should answer to some limitations, characteristics, and axis :
- Opposing their easiness to their strength
- Opposing their duration to their fun (a lot of final smashes are boring, according to me at least). When a final smash is long, it should be at least close to what his character's gameplay is, don't you think? Yoshi's FS for example, is very different. If he has wings and can breath fireballs, why does its gameplay has to be different? He could be able to do small double jump infinitely, and breath fireballs by pressing B, (and being invincible, i guess, though I think it is too much) but still having globally the same gameplay. Same for Sonic, in Sonic 3 & Knuckles on Megadrive, Hyper Sonic's gameplay was very close to what Sonic's gameplay was in the game : he was just faster, and could make a second jump that killed instantly anything in the screen. It was not weirdly flying everywhere. Gigabowser is a good example of what I'm thinking of.
- Not being too random, like Ness or Donkey kong final smashes, and not making the player unable to do anything during the final smash. (Except for final smashes that requires to be close to the opponent when activated.)
- It should be possible to avoid from the opponent if he is good enough, and it should requires at least a bit of skill to use them nicely. (Not too hard of course, but not too casual and nobrain either, like Mewtwo's FS).
- If the final smash is long, it should stop once the opponent is ko'd.
- I think the Smash ball would be nicer if its movements were more predictable, doing for example simple geometric figures, like squares, triangles, circles, or even doing straight lines, diagonally, and making a right angle each time it goes on a wall/on the ground.
- Withdraw the intangibility after the activation of the FS. And the ending lag in some cases, why not, to balance the FS that are too weak. Being untouchable and unable to move makes no sense to me in terms of gameplay.

So, despite the fact that in any case final smashes are expendable, what do you think? If they were less varied and more coherent between them and their character, would they be better? (What prevents balance discussions about FS, is the fact that they are too different and unbalance, at first, I think, but that could change.)

Edit : I will try to make a comment for each FS, to consider what seems adequate and what seems not. What is bold is what seem to be an issue. Don't hesitate to comment what I put or don't put on that list.

Final Smashes that seem fine :
Fine.
Probably fine.
Probably fine. Something different for Dr Mario, ideally.
Probably fine.
Probably fine.
Probably fine.
Probably fine, but shouldn't change to ZSS.
Should be different between them ideally, but for Zelda I think it is fine.
Should not change to Samus.

Final Smashes that do not seem fine :
Should not be invincible.
Should not be invincible.
Should have a normal gameplay + ability to breathe fireballs + ability to jump infinitely. Not invincible anymore.
Boring, not very creative. Should have a normal gameplay + be faster + ability to damage other player around him just by making a double jump, and that jump should be very movable. (Just like Sonic 3 & Knuckles. ) By definition Super Sonic is invincible, but it would be funnier for the game if he was not.
Should stay as it is, except that... Dadidou should be controllable.
Too random, and uncontrollable by the player. Wavedashable by the opponent, and then too weak.
Repetitive, boring, not very creative.
Underpowered and not very original.
Boring. What if he got his grenade launcher and was still on the stage? Ideally, the Metal Gear Rex or Gray Fox could be controllable on the stage.
As far as I understand, the lack of FS of these pokemons is coming from the fact that they are still one unique character according to the game. I suppose the PMBR will find a solution, and if not, they can have the same FS, like the pokemon Trainer appearing and doing something.
Mewtwo's FS is too difficult to avoid.
Not very creative, while we have Ganon itself... This is certainly to much to ask, but i'd like to control it, just like Gigabowser.

No opinions so far

 

[ECHOnce]

The main issue with gathering support/discussion of Final Smashes in the game isn't how different and unbalanced they are; it's the fact that a good chunk of SWF would never even consider playing with items, much less Smash Balls. And even among those who do enjoy using items, many wouldn't be interested in investing any time in such because, ultimately, Final Smashes involve far too much 'luck' factor to be considered fair in tournament play.

If this were to get attention, though, I would advise against options like making Yoshi's or Sonic's FS playstyle resemble more of their regular playstyle, like with Giga Bowser. Some may find flying around too different and even annoying, but others probably enjoy it. It's entirely opinion-based; rather than suggesting changes based on opinion, anyone interested in such a mod (probably not PMBR) would come to the conclusion that they should focus on simply balancing them by adjusting the range, time duration, damage/knockback, invincibility/armor, etc. I don't think more predictable Smash Ball flight patterns would be very popular either; the thing I think people find exciting about it is that the chase is somewhat unpredictable. As someone who doesn't play much with items or Smash Balls myself, I can't really say much...but good luck on this anyhow!

 

[muleet]

Thanks for you answer.
Though, you are saying at first that it isn't popular so it wouldn't be discussed, and then that some people does appreciate how FS are now so it shouldn't change anyway, i think it is contradictory. What I propose here, is to make something that SSB fans would recognize as what they like in SSB : something coherent and balanced, and yet different from one character to another. Super Smash Bros itself succeeded to do something like that, and PM did it betterly, so balancing Final smashes is at least theorically very doable, as it is less complicated... than PM's gameplay itself. I think what is nicely gameplay-based, is more important and popular, than what is opinion-based. SSB is not about opinions, it is about SSB.

 

[ShadowShlong]

All i have to say really is that mewtwo's is stupid overwhelming. the only character i've seen be able to avoid it/live is donkey kong. and that what very lucky and well executed in flying over mewtwos FS. suggestion: make it identical to lucarios....in that it's not almost totally unavoidable.

 

[muleet]

You are pointing to another essential characteristic to design nicely final smashes : they should be avoidable, they should require at least a bit of skill from the player that uses them, and the other player should have a chance to avoid it. It is possible for some final smashes presently, it should be at least a bit possible for all of them.

 

[Xermo]

Boring.

Snake objectively had the most unique final smash.

Too weird and uncontrolable. Should have a normal gameplay + ability to flash the screen and damage anyone present at the moment of the screens, by making a double jump, and that jump should be very movable. (Just like Sonic 3 & Knuckles. )

>Says Sonic's is too weird and uncontrollable
>doesn't mention anything about Pika's when his is horrendously worse to control

 

[silvR1995]

>Says Sonic's is too weird and uncontrollable
>doesn't mention anything about Pika's when his is horrendously worse to control

Excuse the over-emphasizing (is that even a thing?) But this.

Sonic's FS, while stupidly difficult to control, wasn't even CLOSE to Pikachu's. Pika's FS felt near UNcontrollable.

 

[muleet]

Sorry, I don't know well all the final smashes yet. I guess I cared more about Sonic than Pikachu. When I put nothing next to a character, it is that I don't have an opinion about their FS, not that I think they are nice. If you have opinions about them don't hesitate to say it.

"Snake objectively had the most unique final smash."
> "Unique" is not a very important criterion to me. I play SSBs to play SSBs, not to play Time Crisis. The Metal Gear Rex and Gray Fox have 3D models in the game if I remember well, that would be nice to have one of them on the stage for the Final Smash, but I suppose that would be too much of a work.

 

[Sour Supreme]

It's certainly an interesting concept! I'm a Ness main, and when I play with friends and have items on, I've found they've become so good at wavedashing PK Startstorm is useless unless they wavedash away from one star and into another.

I don't think it is high on the list of thins that should be addressed though.

 

[D-idara]

Hi. We can agree that any SSB that contains final smashes also has game mechanics that makes it sufficient to itself, making the final smashes quite obsolete. However it is still possible to balance the final smashes, just so it wouldn't be a weird item. Whether the PMBR should do it or not does not seem important to me, i'm only posting this to think about it.

So I think all final smashes should answer to some limitations, characteristics, and axis :
- Opposing their easiness to their strength
- Opposing their duration to their fun (a lot of final smashes are boring, according to me at least). When a final smash is long, it should be at least close to what his character's gameplay is, don't you think? Yoshi's FS for example, is very different. If he has wings and can breath fireballs, why does its gameplay has to be different? He could be able to do small double jump infinitely, and breath fireballs by pressing B, (and being invincible, i guess, though I think it is too much) but still having globally the same gameplay. Same for Sonic, in Sonic 3 & Knuckles on Megadrive, Hyper Sonic's gameplay was very close to what Sonic's gameplay was in the game : he was just faster, and could make a second jump that killed instantly anything in the screen. It was not weirdly flying everywhere. Gigabowser is a good example of what I'm thinking of.
- Not being too random, like Ness or Donkey kong final smashes, and not making the player unable to do anything during the final smash. (Except for final smashes that requires to be close to the opponent when activated.)
- It should be possible to avoid from the opponent if he is good enough, and it should requires at least a bit of skill to use them nicely. (Not too hard of course, but not too casual and nobrain either, like Mewtwo's FS).
- If the final smash is long, it should stop once the opponent is ko'd.
- I think the Smash ball would be nicer if its movements were more predictable, doing for example simple geometric figures, like squares, triangles, circles, or even doing straight lines, diagonally, and making a right angle each time it goes on a wall/on the ground.

So, despite the fact that in any case final smashes are expendable, what do you think? If they were less varied and more coherent between them and their character, would they be better? (What prevents balance discussions about FS, is the fact that they are too different and unbalance, at first, I think, but that could change.)

Edit : I will try to make a comment for each FS, to consider what seems adequate and what seems not. What is bold is what seem to be an issue. Don't hesitate to comment what I put or don't put on that list.

Final Smashes that seem fine :
Probably fine.
Not bad I think.
Probably fine.
Probably fine.
Probably fine.
Probably fine, but shouldn't change to ZSS.
Should be different between them ideally, but for Zelda I think it is fine.

Final Smashes that do not seem fine :
Should not be invincible.
Should not be invincible.
Should have a normal gameplay + ability to breathe fireballs + ability to jump infinitely. Not invincible anymore.
Too weird and uncontrolable. Should have a normal gameplay + be faster + ability to flash the screen and damage anyone present at the moment of the screens, by making a double jump, and that jump should be very movable. (Just like Sonic 3 & Knuckles. ) By definition Hyper Sonic is invincible, but it would be funnier for the game if he was not.
Too random, and uncontrollable by the player.
Too random, and uncontrollable by the player. Wavedashable by the opponent, and then too weak.
Uncontrollable.
Too weird and uncontrollable.
Should be a lot more stronger and not change to Samus.
Boring. What if he got his grenade launcher and was still on the stage? Ideally, the Metal Gear Rex or Gray Fox could be controllable on the stage.
As far as I understand, the lack of FS of these pokemons is coming from the fact that they are still one unique character according to the game. I suppose the PMBR will find a solution, and if not, they can have the same FS, like the pokemon Trainer appearing and doing something.
Mewtwo's FS is too difficult to avoid.

No opinions so far

You're one of those people that ignore the fact that Super Sonic flies in about 2/3 of the Sonic games?

 

[muleet]

D-idara > I'm one of those people that don't really like any Sonic games excepted the genesis/megadrive ones. And in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, he flies in the 14th stage in space, but he flies because he has to, to pursue Dr Eggman's ship. On a SSB stage, flying makes him hard to control, it has no sense.
(However it is more a matter of fun than sense, to me.)

 

[Xermo]

Weeell we all have our definitions of fun, but butchering Sonic's current final smash by turning him into warioman and giving him the ability to damage by jumping (not to mention you wanting hyper sonic because genesis mastur race; which frankly wont happen without super emeralds) can't possibly be as much fun as making people get pissy when you start flying around and killing them by touch. What does fun have to do with balance again?

Also super sonic is much more iconic (and makes more sense flying around. This is modern sonic mind you.) than a one-shot appearance for the good ending in Sonic 3.

And if I may ask, what's so hard to "control" about sonic's final smash?

 

[muleet]

I agree that this damage by jumping could probably be overpowered (even as a FS, of course) so it shouldn't be done this way. And Super Sonic would be nice too, yes, I don't really care if he stays Sonic's FS. (I updated a bit his description in my first post.) But even then, I think something permissive is better than something limited. I think how Sonic's FS is right now is boring, repetitive, does not permit creativity, it does not make me want to get the Smash ball as Sonic. I like Gigabowser because he feels like a secret character, even if he is totally unbalanced compared to real characters. I think more "secret" characters like him would be a good thing. Warioman should be selectable by pressing R on the character and stage screen, also.
And Yoshi and Diddy Kong could be like them too, after some alterations.

"What does fun have to do with balance again?"
> To balance the strength of each characters is one thing, but to balance their field of possibilities and their fun potential is important too. Something limited is hardly fun, or not for long.

 

[turtletank]

I wouldn't be surprised if we see some FS balance tweaks in the next release. They've already expressed interest in doing so by balancing Giga Bowser in 3.0.

 

[QuickRat]

I think the main problem is Smash Ball. I mean... it spawns randomly and it moves randomly. It's pretty unfair who of the fighters get the Final Smash. Maybe a power bar (like in most of fighting games) could fit better... but that's a completely new mechanic I don't think PMBR could afford. I mean, Nintendo has lots of programmers, designers and testers with high salaries. Sometimes, PMBR love for this community isn't enough.

But if they could do that or any other option that rewards ability instead of luck, I think this would need a huge effort... Balancing these dramaticly different attacks would be pretty difficult. Should DK change his and take other one (like Rambi)? Then, how much damage does it do? I find it near impossible to fix FS. They could do it if they were building a game from scratch, but not sure if they can do it modding an already finished game.

 

[muleet]

I think it is important that different VS fighting games also have different ways to activate the "ultimate attack". A smash ball can be a good concept for SSB because it requires to move, while a power bar would just requires to hit or to be hit : it wouldn't change anything to the present matches we have. Every player already wants to hit, and already doesn't want to be hit. That would make the FS an inevitable part of each match and it is not a good thing.
However the smash ball clearly has to change, to something whose the movements would be more predictable. I see two possibilities for now :
- It could bounces to the ground, walls (considering that the extremity of a stage's ground also has above it an invisible vertical wall for a smash ball, so they would stay in the stage). Every rebound will make a right angle, this way, it would be completely predictable. (It would always move diagonally.)
- It could stay the way it is, but have a tiny line showing the movement it would do for the next three seconds. (So this line will always advance, at the same rhythm than the smash ball itself). If every players knows where the ball would go, it would be more a matter of skill, I think. (Of course I don't know if this is doable for the PMBR.)

 

[Saito]

Since I've played extensively with FS both on and off in Project M I can give you a fair analysis on the specials that are or aren't balanced.

Completely fine. Might be a bit underpowered to be honest since giga bowser can be flinched now.
Fine
Fine
Underpowered, with proper usage it's very good though.
Fine.
Hard to dodge, and pretty powerful. it's fine though.
Extremely hard to dodge, and dangerous to be around. Covers horizontally all the way. Unbalanced on FD but it's mostly fine everywhere else.

Duration might need to be a bit shorter, but it's mostly easy to avoid.
Duration might need to be a bit shorter
Relatively easy to avoid. it's fine.
Duration needs to be shorter, and the damage is ridiculous. This is a literal overpowered final smash. It's not hard to control at all to be honest.
Fine Also its timed with the beats made by the music in game. you need to learn that if you want to effectively use that special.
Fine - It's dodgeable and it's angle is slightly controllable. Ness' might need a small buff but Lucas is completely fine.
Fine - I don't know how you can't control this when you can control where it falls pretty much spot on.
The only thing bad about Pika's final smash is that sonic's is better by a longshot. it's moderately hard to learn how to control it but once you do it ends up being a very balanced final smash.
Fine. It also does more damage the closer you are to the opponent. It has really solid kill power.
Snakes final smash is fine. it's harder to hit with in this because of wavedashing but it's definitely fairly balanced. if you don't think its fun then that's a personal problem.
Needs to be fixed.
Literally overpowered. both were extremely buffed and nigh impossible to evade now. Essentially guaranteed kills with no effort. Perhaps lower the strength.

Very powerful, but difficult to hit with due to long start up. It has a vortex of fire that goes straight up so that has potential to get the opponent, but it has to be timed properly as well. It's fine overall.
Fine
Fine, might be a bit underpowered thanks to SDI
Fine
Fine
Fine
Fine
HOLY ****ING ****. LIKE JUST JESUS. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PMBR DID TO ICE CLIMBERS SPECIAL BUT ITS PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST BROKEN THINGS NOW. THIS NEEDS A NERF OF SOME SORT. NOT AS WEAK AS IN BRAWL BUT HOLY **** ITS OVERPOWERED IN PROJECT M.
It's fine. however, most of the people don't get hit by all the attacks of it for some reason in project M. that needs to get fixed.
Underpowered and hard to hit with.
Link's is fine. Toon links is less viable but still balanced.
Currently very glitchy because it uses timer mechanics, which in project M cause strange glitches. Thanks to that it can be extremely unpredictable.
Fine. Not good for killing, but health recovery is real.
Fine
Duration is long, making it dangerous for multiple kills.
Duration is long making it dangerous for multiple kills.

 

[muleet]

Thanks for your post Saito.
I understand your opinion about Sonic, and some others like Pikachu or Olimar, and I finally think that in my first post I was wrong about what was a flaw according to me, about them. I finally agree that their FS are quite controllable like you said, and yet I don't them : they are boring, to me. I don't want to wait for a too different gameplay to end, and too limited. It is only my opinion of course, but I think the fun potential is smaller than what a FS should have, and some other FS especially. I'll update some descriptions in my post.
I also don't really like FSs that just do instant damage if you are close to the opponent : it is fine if only some character have it, but if there are so many, it is not creative anymore. I know it would be hard to have only creative FS though.
(I've also moved some FS to the "no opinion so far", like DK and Olimar, just to recheck them before putting another opinion).

 

[Terotrous]

I think the only way to fix final smashes is that they have to become supers, you'd have a bar that builds up when you do attacks / get hit by stuff and when it's full, you can do your FS. They would also have to be way less powerful than they are now, and probably none of them would involve special state transformations.

The way I see it, most supers should be one of the following:

- A move that moderate damage (~20%) with high knockback (killing around 80%)
- A move that does high damage (~40%) but little to no knockback (killing around 200%)
- An easy-to-land move that does low damage (~15%) and low knockback (killing around 140%)


I also think it'd be interesting if you could use half your meter for a momentum break - you enter a special animation and all knockback on your character is instantly cancelled and you regain your double jumps / upB. However, the animation isn't actually an attack so if the opponent is near you they can just hit you during it. It also doesn't restore health or anything so the next strong hit is probably still going to kill.


Of course, this is way too major a change for something like PM to implement, it'd have to be put in Smash 5.

 

[muleet]

Terotrous > That's one way to see final smashes, though... it would make them become a intrinsic part of the gameplay, they would occur each match. Like I said before, I'm quite sure the SSB's gameplay is deep enough, it doesn't need FSs. Notably because the final smash is supposed to be a "final move", but the game already have tons of final moves (any move that has high knockback). They should only be bonuses, that can appear for other reasons. The smash ball also implies something interesting : only one can have the final smash, while with power bars, both will have it.
SSB is different than other fighting games, it shouldn't try to mimic them.
(And if you make them weaker it could be worse i think, making them too "normal", too "natural". According to me, they have to be a "special moment".)
Again that's only my opinion.

 

[alex6309]

I wish that they could change Luigi's FS to not have the timer mechanics because christ the things that happen can be stupid.

They can go super fast for no reason, super slow, unable to attack, have messed up gravity, or even instakilled when grabbed.

 

[Choice Scarf]

It sounds like Luigi to literally break the game with his final smash lol.