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Asking for some transparency on recent events.

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Rage83

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I have discussed this with the administration and they agree: the Project M forums here are for the discussion of Project M version 3.6. The customized content section here is for content that is exclusively made by the users posting the content, or who otherwise have full permission of any collaborators to post it. Anything outside of that is not allowed, and is considered off-topic or outright spam. Worse, it can be considered plagiarism, which is a very serious offense in any realm of content production. This will be the only warning. Thanks for reading.
I don't see the point in pushing the post 3.6 content out of everywhere with no exceptions. Regardless of a mod's status as being related to the leaks, the creators of the content have always had to be credited regardless. In the context of Project M in particular, this would be a lot easier for the rest of us to do if PMDT members actually had some form of a credits list within the team, which would have been distributed with each release during Project M's development. Don't push us out for not crediting specific team members if you never made the effort to put your name on it in the first place. On the note of plagiarism, the PMDT's lack of credits devalues the work of the people that they based their own work on. It seems suspicious that there have been things that are exactly the same (or retain some untouched parts of) outside work that was released with no intention of being in PM without crediting them, for that matter.

Also, why the lack of transparency about the cancellation? If you guys were advised that a further release would bring legal hell upon you, why not tell people that that threat is the reason behind it?

I give my apologies if this comes of as trying to give you an earful, i'm just a bit frustrated and looking for answers that aren't some attempt at avoiding the questions.
 

TheOriginalSINe

Smash Rookie
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I agree. Sure would be nice if there was a sticky about all this so people wouldn't have their topics instantly removed because of rules they don't know about. Also I would like to point out this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/knuckles-lyn-and-isaac-stock-icons.425088/
was locked, even though it had no "plagiarized content".I would ALSO like to point out that there are tons and tons of modpacks out there that include content from other users that have simply a credits list that includes their name. In fact there are mod packs in this very forum that are like that. So why is it that an exception is made for Project M?
 

Strong Badam

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You're conflating issues here. In the general Brawl (& for this subforum, Project M) modding community, content is produced and shared with the intent that other users use it and in many cases build upon it. If a content producer were to state in the release thread something akin to "Please do not modify or use my work in other packs, credit or not," I would imagine that would need to be respected, and would moderate any reported content that goes against that ideal. In Project M's case, it's quite blatant that the content being shared does not have consent granted to modify, distribute, or adopt said content into a new project, and I am certain that none of you can really argue with me on that.

For the linked thread by SINe, the linked content is not usable in Project M (v3.6 as stated in the post quoted in the OP), so it has no place here. Unrelated to the pack you're trying to promote and distribute here.

I'm working on establishing stickies and such for these forums; as you may imagine I have been a very busy man this past week. Thank you for your continued patience on that front. The fact that a sticky does not exist is why I haven't infracted users, even though it's really common sense to not do this type of thing.
 
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TheOriginalSINe

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No offense intended, but I'm still just a bit confused on what exactly the rules here are on this forum. Perhaps you can clarify a few things for me?

You're right; I can't argue that Project M does not have permission to be modified. But the PMDT has always been against people modding their work, leak or no leak. Yet you have topics all over the front page of this subforum that include modified Project M files, and in most cases, the original 3.6 files are included with the download. The PMDT team clearly did not give any consent to these packs. How is that any different from "modify, distribute, or adopt said content into a new project"? They are VERY clearly modifying, distributing, and adopting the content into a new project. You also said in my thread that: "The customized content section here is for content that is exclusively made by the users posting the content, or who otherwise have full permission of any collaborators to post it." Again, this is clearly not the case, as their are builds that have Project M content, modified or unmodified, in the download.

As for the stock icons, there's nothing that prevents you from having a custom Knuckles, Lyn, or Isaac skin in 3.6. In fact, I had a build a while ago which included those skins as alternates for Sonic, Marth, and Pit respectively. I can also pretty much say with a 100% certainty that somewhere on this forum, there is a build with one of those costumes with their respective stock icons. There was also no "plagiarized content" in that thread. In fact, I would say that that topic is probably the least plagiarized thing in this entire forum, as the stock icons are entirely original pieces of artwork.
 

Strong Badam

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Project M has always encouraged modification of its official releases. We have had a customized content section dating back to before Smashboards, when we were still on smashmods. The existence of this subforum (which was created by a former PMDT member~) is pretty blatantly encouraging modification of PM.

Your other argument, while more or less logically sound, just has devil's advocate written all over it. Saying that you or other users desire, specifically, those characters to be in your custom build and over Sonic, Marth, and Pit in this situation is intellectually dishonest and you know that.
 
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Sirkura

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Strong Badam Strong Badam isn't that statement also dishonest? We both know that you are cleaning up leaked files for fear of being sued, no one really cared until recently who or what was in your build. PM unbound, and PM DiY are both mods focusing on expanding character rosters. They would be perfectly viable in those builds as a stand alone character using 3.02-3.6 (BeX works with those ones now)

"Project M has always encouraged modification of its official releases. We have had a customized content section dating back to before Smashboards, when we were still on smashmods. The existence of this subforum (which was created by a former PMDT member~) is pretty blatantly encouraging modification of PM."

I also have to disagree with that comment, with some reservations. I believe minor mods are more or less encouraged, things like adding a stage or character, but i've personally been told off with not so kind remarks when looking into the 3.6 code list to make changes. I would hope to god that's not how all the PM devs are, but its been my experience in the past with any interactions i've had. as someone on the PMDT i do have a question tho. How big was this threat? how much does it affect the smash community as a whole? Does it only affect PM or does it affect all of brawl hacking? I mean >.> if nintendo wanted they could sieze brawlvault. full credits, uploads, and IPs of every single person that has ever uploaded there. there has been such a thick wedge betweent he PMDT on this its a bit unsettling. i see panic on many levels, in big mods as well as small.
 

Hylian

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The PMDT can only be as transparent as they are being. I'm sorry, but there are reasons that are more important than your curiosity for the lack of transparency.

We(smashboards) would like to avoid the same thing that happened to the "evolution" team here. You are asking questions that have been asked hundreds of times already, and the answers are still the same. Please stop pestering Strong Bad and seemingly arguing for the sake of it. He gave perfectly valid responses.

If you need a reason why you cannot do these things now on smashboards, here is your reason:

Because I said so.

No amount of logic will change this, so please stop arguing about it. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong on the matter, it's not something that's going to happen.

Thank you.
 

blerb

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i've personally been told off with not so kind remarks
I just want to chime in on this quickly. I won't claim to know how you've been treated by ex-PMBR members, specifically the wizards, but I'm gonna guess this "hostility" is more projection than sincerity. The PMBR has dealt with a lot of anuses stealing code and posting it elsewhere, just to have a bunch of "coders" try to decipher it and figure out how it works, to no avail, at least publicly.

Consider that. If even after the codes were posted (for reference I am referring to the SonicBrawler fiasco on KCMM circa 2012ish) no one could figure out how they work, what incentive do the wizards have to help? They would help the people who clearly display the ability to actually understand how the codes work, not the randoms posting about how mean it is of the evil PMBR to withhold all this stuff for basically NO RAISON

The wizards expressing their frustration toward you for being unable to grip the code lying in front of you is not hostility. It is frustration, plain and simple. If you want to understand how their codes worked, go through them and prove to them that you are capable of doing so. Perhaps then they will throw you a bone. Or not considering recent events, who knows, I'm not a wizard

Just my 0.02¢, food for thought n all that
 

Cahalan

Smash Ace
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925
Can I suggest something here?

It's has occurred to me that pretty much posting any derivative work related to the leaked content (i.e. direct completion of the forbidden 4 w/h the files from said dev build) is pretty much looked down upon and is best to avoid posting so that no legal threat(s) can target Smashboards and the PMDT, yes?

Is it safe to at most salvage the concepts presented by the unfinished works (mainly the forbidden 4)?
IIRC there have been mods relating to of 3 of the forbidden 4 on the vault for quite some time before all of this and the disbandment occurring (look up mods on the vault with the names of the forbidden 4, minus the orange haired one, to see for yourself).

So why not make a sticky post on hear regarding the terms of use for "Creating any mods/content relating to the leaks"?

I've already thought of some guide lines to start:

1- Please, DO NOT use or publicly distribute any of the unreleased content in the leaked builds. The costumes may be released by their creators in the near future at their own pace, so do not pester them to do so or at least ask them politely if they even intend to release their scrapped works. Some time later we may put a check list for the scrapped costumes here as a reference to what has been officially released by their creators and as such: allow for derivative works to be created from.

2- As for the scrapped characters, we cannot allow users to post PSA's that "complete" the leaked characters incomplete movesets at all, even cosmetics based on the leaked CSP's from the dev build may bring trouble to the sub-forum (trouble as in putting the entire website in jeopardy). However, if the psa of a leaked character uses all original assets NOT from the dev build, it may be posted here as it is technically not the same scrapped character from the dev build: however the PSA package (model, recolors, cosmetics, moveset) must be made from the ground up, though the concepts presented from what was in the dev builds may be used for inspiration (like [redacted]'s bow) or even recreated from scratch.

3- Since the codeset has been let loose to the public, that also means the Clone Engine, the very same thing that allowed Mewtwo and Roy to comeback, is out there as well. We are still debating on it's use and the ability to add psa's to Project M in terms of the modding community at large, but as long as it's not apart of an effort to "complete" the leaked builds i.e. complete the leaked movesets, you may post content that takes advantage of the Clone Engine. Be warned of it's complexity though, it may cause game breaking errors to the game, so wait for some one to learn it and post a tutorial as it is very much an arduous process and easy to mess up. As for the PSA's, as long as they're not from the leaked dev build you can use them for the clone engine; even the scratched built recreations of the scrapped PM characters as long as they follow the second condition.

4- DO NOT attempt to create and publicly distribute a custom build aiming to be "Project M 4.0", 3.6 is the official final version and such a build can attract unwanted legal hostilities toward the PMDT and possibly Smashboards. You can however still add content to any of the previous released versions of Project M unhindered, as long as it's not aiming to use leaked assets from the dev builds. And please for the love of God, do not title your team with "PMDT" slapped onto it... just don't, not only will you sound dumb, but you also attract ninja lawyers: and those will financially kill you in the court.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a closing message before I turn in for now, I just want to say thank you to the PMDT for all the TLC put into Project M. It may not have been the epic vision you wanted, but what you gave us already is perhaps the most stable and "complete" out of all that you've put out there. You gave me something that will last a very long time for me and my friends, and I fully intend to extend it using content created by this fantastic modding community around your mod (without luring copyright ninjas). For a long time I wanted to add some of the best PSA's I've found with out replacing anyone on the roster, and until recently I met someone that could help me. With him, we can add the likes of Geno or Ridley into PM without compromising the core cast, even without the clone engine as soon as Brawl EX is compatible with Project M (and has no bugs). I never intend to treat this build as "the next version of PM" but rather an expansion of what the PMDT gave us officially.

Without out you guys making Project M what it is today, I would never have my crazy dream to expand our current roster of 41, and even though I can't use the leaked assets, that doesn't matter. Even though I may lack the knowledge to modify movesets, I intend to make this build as a love letter to the modding community I'm apart of, even if all I do right now is cosmetics, using what we create. Eventually that may include scratch built representations of what the forbidden 4 could have been, but for now, I am content with what you, the PMDT, and the modding community around, has been able to turn out. Without Project M, we could never have Ridley as a character psa, a crazy youtuber reacting to that psa, an entire communtiy around one fan mod for Smash Bros as diverse as the one we have now, or the chance to experience Brawl in one of the best possible ways right now.

Your work has not only made an entire community from the ground up, but it gives me something to strive for outside of school. Not a day goes by without me thinking about that build I want to compile. Those css rosters I post from time to time with more than 41 faces and a question mark, that's me thinking about the roster of that build: who should I include and how will it be organized when it all comes together, along with thinking of concepts for the newcomers who don't already have a psa in the works. To make a long story short, without Project M: alot of what we have now would not be here and it's all thanks to a rag tag group of brawl modders coming together to make Falco more like his melee self.

From the bottom of my heart and many others, thank you PMDT: all of you.
 

WorseDoughnut

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Disregarding the flippantly curt and unneeded post above by Hylian, I'm personally confused as to what is we're allowing and disallowing to be posted here from now on.

Post's like the one SINe linked, while currently obviously intended to be used with the leaked content like Strong Bad said, will eventually have to be allowed; if not here, than at least in a Brawl Customized Content forum.

The fact that we know these characters existed means that custom content inspired by that work will crop up. Considering that the modding community enjoys these characters, and considering the hype around them, it's only inevitable.

How long until a Lyn or Knuckles stock icon, or build with Knuckles or Lyn on the CSS is allowed?

Is it until everyone forgotten and moved on from this debacle, or are we permanently blacklisting and entire character?

There were at least 4 Lyn textures on Brawl Vault prior to the leak of the actual files.

There were countless Knuckles textures on Brawl Vault prior to the leak of the actual files.

I get the knee-jerk reactions to remove this content at this point in time, I'm not contesting that. But if this becomes precedent, we'll only end up stifling the modding community.
 
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Sirkura

Smash Cadet
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68
The PMDT can only be as transparent as they are being. I'm sorry, but there are reasons that are more important than your curiosity for the lack of transparency.

We(smashboards) would like to avoid the same thing that happened to the "evolution" team here. You are asking questions that have been asked hundreds of times already, and the answers are still the same. Please stop pestering Strong Bad and seemingly arguing for the sake of it. He gave perfectly valid responses.

If you need a reason why you cannot do these things now on smashboards, here is your reason:

Because I said so.

No amount of logic will change this, so please stop arguing about it. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong on the matter, it's not something that's going to happen.

Thank you.
Actually what i was asking had more to do with Brawl in general. I just wanted a simple yes or no as to if brawl hacking its self should be halted for the time being. or if its specifically PM that is having issues. that much could be said i think.

I just want to chime in on this quickly. I won't claim to know how you've been treated by ex-PMBR members, specifically the wizards, but I'm gonna guess this "hostility" is more projection than sincerity. The PMBR has dealt with a lot of anuses stealing code and posting it elsewhere, just to have a bunch of "coders" try to decipher it and figure out how it works, to no avail, at least publicly.

Consider that. If even after the codes were posted (for reference I am referring to the SonicBrawler fiasco on KCMM circa 2012ish) no one could figure out how they work, what incentive do the wizards have to help? They would help the people who clearly display the ability to actually understand how the codes work, not the randoms posting about how mean it is of the evil PMBR to withhold all this stuff for basically NO RAISON

The wizards expressing their frustration toward you for being unable to grip the code lying in front of you is not hostility. It is frustration, plain and simple. If you want to understand how their codes worked, go through them and prove to them that you are capable of doing so. Perhaps then they will throw you a bone. Or not considering recent events, who knows, I'm not a wizard

Just my 0.02¢, food for thought n all that
I understand how the codes work and can read them, Infact i got BeX intitially working with 3.6 by myself and could even make a 100% custom clone with their engine.. It just took longer, and any time i asked for help, I was shot down. I now have many more experienced coders helping. They have been able to flesh out errors in conflict of code. *I.E. ASL + BEX was incompatible*
 

Jitters

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I personally do not see the need for people to get up in arms over the 'leaked' content or the modification of it.
I get that the PMDT want(ed) to keep their version the definitive one from a competitive standpoint.
Irregardless of the stance, if all these legal rumors are true, then I highly doubt we'll being seeing anything grand-scale with PM anymore. In a simpler sense, I don't see an issue with PM being modified for personal use, leaked content or no.

If the community wants to continue to enforce tourney play, then by all means continue to enforce a definitive version to be used. In fact, last time I checked organized tourneys prohibited the use of custom builds, aka anything that wasn't official PM, now and then.

I don't think it's right at all to bash or restrict people from modding the leaked content. That was result of one person, not people; the community should not have to blatantly suffer for it. I understand that the PMDT got themselves in hot legal water, so keeing anything related on the down low for now I get. What I don't is the modding community being contradicted by people trying to act as cyber policemen. All of this threatening/name calling is beyond immature.

I have no issue with the PMDT enforcing 3.6 from a tourney/competitive standpoint. What I do have an issue with is the penalization of the people who wish to continue to mod PM out enjoyment for themselves and between friends. I don't recall seeing this kind of bad behavior back when people manged to crack 3.0 open to get BeX working with it.
 
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Xermo

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Oh no, stock icons of characters not explicitly owned by the former members of the PMDT. Better hide the children.
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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Oh no, stock icons of characters not explicitly owned by the former members of the PMDT. Better hide the children.
There is no reason for this to continue.
 
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