Asking for advice on the neutral and mental games.

[b2jammer]

Greetings from yet another player asking for advice. As a Mario main in Smash 4, I feel like I'm relatively solid in tech skill, with a grasp on combos, pivots, etc, but I'm pretty terrible at neutral and the mental game in general - a mentality I'm aware is rather common.

I've linked to some FG replays where I get bodied pretty harshly, so let me know what I'm doing right and wrong. (And yes, I know that FG isn't great for practice, but it's gotten a lot better over the past year IMO).

Any critique and advice is encouraged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xoHm95R-2I&index=15&list=PLQBApjMXPDRs8qm3c7-KaM_MqGckptGIp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr5LXBUiiiA&index=2&list=PLQBApjMXPDRs8qm3c7-KaM_MqGckptGIp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtleDkQ2jmo&index=8&list=PLQBApjMXPDRs8qm3c7-KaM_MqGckptGIp

 

[Cheeks]

whats up dude. I watched all three of your videos. I consider myself an average player so my observations probably aren't always accurate. First off, don't feel too bad losing to the pikachu and mario. The pikachu knew how to use his moves to apply safe pressure and played very aggresive. And when the mario did that double u-smash into b-air into u-air into u-smash, it was evident he knew what mario is capable of (It was a pretty sweet string). However, the match against little mac was just bad.

I watched your pikachu match like 7 or 8 times trying to study it LOL.

This biggest thing I picked up on in the pikachu match was when you and pikachu are in a neutral position you either sit in shield or throw out a random smash attack. I kept seeing it over and over again. That's why pikachu was able to get you so easily. Also when you get knocked away you have a bad habit of falling toward your opponent only to land into another attack.

Mario ditto: Same thing as pikachu match. Way too many random smash attacks. Sitting in shield too much.

Little Mac match: You need to go back and rewatch this yourself and count how many times you fell into an attack. This one was the worst.

The following points are what is killing your neutral game.

1. No more random smash attacks. You do this way too much. Just for the sake of eliminating bad habits, designate your smash attacks only for punishes (you know 100% it will land)

2. Under utilization of mario's B-air and N-air with an emphasis on short hop b-air. Didn't see enough of this in your games.

3. Try not to be to indecisive in neutral. To be fair, mario doesn't have the best approach options. I'm not going to lie, this can be tricky. Try using whatever safe attacks you have and make it a goal to land a grab. Grabs are so good for mario. However, if you find yourself in those "stare down" moments and you really don't know how to approach then start throwing out fireballs. It automatically gives the opponent something to deal with.

Good luck!!! Remember I'm not that good myself so my analysis probably holds little weight. But i'll still 1v1 you

 

[b2jammer]

whats up dude. I watched all three of your videos. I consider myself an average player so my observations probably aren't always accurate. First off, don't feel too bad losing to the pikachu and mario. The pikachu knew how to use his moves to apply safe pressure and played very aggresive. And when the mario did that double u-smash into b-air into u-air into u-smash, it was evident he knew what mario is capable of (It was a pretty sweet string). However, the match against little mac was just bad.

I watched your pikachu match like 7 or 8 times trying to study it LOL.

This biggest thing I picked up on in the pikachu match was when you and pikachu are in a neutral position you either sit in shield or throw out a random smash attack. I kept seeing it over and over again. That's why pikachu was able to get you so easily. Also when you get knocked away you have a bad habit of falling toward your opponent only to land into another attack.

Mario ditto: Same thing as pikachu match. Way too many random smash attacks. Sitting in shield too much.

Little Mac match: You need to go back and rewatch this yourself and count how many times you fell into an attack. This one was the worst.

The following points are what is killing your neutral game.

1. No more random smash attacks. You do this way too much. Just for the sake of eliminating bad habits, designate your smash attacks only for punishes (you know 100% it will land)

2. Under utilization of mario's B-air and N-air with an emphasis on short hop b-air. Didn't see enough of this in your games.

3. Try not to be to indecisive in neutral. To be fair, mario doesn't have the best approach options. I'm not going to lie, this can be tricky. Try using whatever safe attacks you have and make it a goal to land a grab. Grabs are so good for mario. However, if you find yourself in those "stare down" moments and you really don't know how to approach then start throwing out fireballs. It automatically gives the opponent something to deal with.

Good luck!!! Remember I'm not that good myself so my analysis probably holds little weight. But i'll still 1v1 you

Thanks. I'll keep those things in mind.
Yeah, now that you mentioned it, that Little Mac match was pretty pathetic.

 

[nedskii-]

Hello. Going straight into this from reading the thread title and none else because coffee makes me write. anyways.

My mindset of playing the nuetral is all about "keep my opponent out, and find an opening"

This means, play careful until they make a mistake, then punish, small or big. Every hit counts. Baiting airdodges and attacks when your opponent is in the air is HUGE. This leads into mixups. Never do the same thing twice, and never be fooled by the same thing twice. Also learn how to pace back and fourth, not letting your opponent know when you will approach exactly. learn different approachs to get in with your character main. Empty short hops are extremely effective! Never letting them know when you will come at them with an aerial. Also, this game HIGHLY depends on shield conditioning your opponent. Always pay attn to how/when they shield, beat it. Make them switch to a different option and beat it again

 

[b2jammer]

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. But now I'm having a different, but I assume related problem: I've reached the point where no matter what I try to do, I get countered by my opponent every single time - when I air dodge, I always get baited out; when I attack, they always shield, dodge, or outprioritize; when I shield for more than ~10-20 frames, I get grabbed; when I challenge an anti-air with an aerial, they always either dodge and then combo me or get hit and then punish while I'm still in lag; and even when I attack, random counterattack, and if I'm playing against Bayonetta, there goes my stock even from ~10%; my only feeling of safety is, somewhat ironically, when I'm recovering, but even then I get countered and killed every time. I'm going to assume it's because of a salt OD on a bad day on top of a balance patch, so outside of quitting for a while and coming back, is there a way to make the most out of a s***** situation like this?

EDIT: That's just me being a salty SOB last night, but I'm leaving it for relevancy's sake, i.e. let me ask a different way. My current problem is not knowing when to commit to something and when to back off: I'm used to playing characters like Mario or Sheik who can get away with riskier moves because of excellent frame data and mobility, but when I switch to a slightly slower character, such as Link, I always commit to the wrong things - for example, I tend to throw out an up smash and it sometimes works and other times it just gets me killed. On the other hand, if I stay indecisive in shield or just trying to stay defensive too long, the opponent will throw out a stronger attack and kill me. In other words, how can I know when I can get away with taking a risk and how can I know when to play it safe?

 

[FrankTheStud]

Hey dude, I just watched your Pikachu video and can already give you a bit of advice.

First off, this is great match to watch... Very fast paced and aggressive on both sides, along with a few great plays from both players.
However, you don't utilize any of Mario's tools as much as you should... You didn't use FLUDD once (not even when you got took a stock, which is pretty much a free charge), and didn't cape enough of his own jolts back at him. (which can lead to you getting in and keeping pressure. You can also cape his down-b, which you also got caught in a few times).
Pikachu is a hard fight for Mario, especially because of his unpredictable patterns and quick speed, but using FLUDD can change that drastically. FLUDD forces them out of their comfortable positioning, and can even take a stock if Pikachu is carelessly using up+b to get in on you or escape.
Alongside that, try to gimp more. A stock is a stock, and Mario has some great tools (cape, fireball, FLUDD) for gimping opponents.
Less down smash at low percents, look into down tilt into fsmash, utilt, up+b, grab, or uair instead... The worst move Mario can do at low percents is down smash because it doesn't combo into anything, and isn't strong enough to keep them away from you while you breakdance.

As far as fundamentals:
Stop rolling so much, rolls are easy to read, especially by fast opponents (fox, pikachu, c falc) and they can run in on you and punish hard. (upsmash especially... no, not the face!)
Don't use your double jump to recover until it's completely necessary... I learned this while playing Luigi. The Mario Bros are fairly easy to gimp, so be careful when recovering. Up + b to ledge is quick and you snap to ledge, so its also safer than floating with a double jump to ledge. Also, if they hit you via guarding or are positioning themselves to guard, you can mix it up because you have your double jump saved... It makes you less easy to read, basically.
Air dodge less when landing so you don't get read.

I have some videos on my channel of some of my Mario matches, but I haven't updated it in a while due to college starting back up. If you want, you can view them if you think it'll help you.

Best of luck and happy smashing!

Edit: Minor grammar fixes.

 

[FrankTheStud]

The best way to figure out when to take risks is kin of trial and error. For example, imagine Dr. Mario's fair. It's a powerful move, but very unsafe. You use it when you feel appropriate (perhaps trying to secure a kill?), and if they block and grab you, you know not to use it for a while. In their mind, they will assume that every time you approach from the air, you'll input fair or nair, and wait to shield-grab you. So instead, approach from the air and fast fall when you see their shield go up. When you land, use a dtilt into fsmash or grab or a jab combo... Maybe even dtilt into fair or up+b if they aren't expecting it.
Taking risks is heavily involved with reading your opponent and really gettiing inside their head. The same applies to Mario using fair to spike after a downthrow. If you jump after a d throw and they airdodge your fair, do it again and wait for the airdodge before using fair, and then lay it on them. Your opponent will probably react to consistencies in your playstyle, but if you're a step ahead of them, you can really lay down some pain. (this is the process of adapting)
That's really what "reading" is all about--Mind games. And in my opinion, is a big part of Smash. Reading (predicting opponents moves), reacting (how quickly you can see things happening and input a counter... perfect shielding is also BIG here), and adapting (thinking of multiple ways to deal with various situations) are three huge processes that take place within battle. It's usually players who can do all three of these quickest who end up winning.

 

[MarMarTheGreat]

Get a game plan on...Assuming from what I saw you just go with the flow and throw random smash attacks..

Try to bait them into doing moves with lag and capitilize on it....Dont throw random smash attacks all the time and idk dont have such a predictable recovery against Little Mac..That Little M match was embarrasing..The others werent that embarrasing..Your match with Pika was pretty solid..

All I can say is you need to Utilize Mario more than what you are doing now..

Force them to approach you..Dont run straight in..Mario can spam..

Also why would you approach with aerial neutral B? Spamming Fire balls at the edge of the stage is much more effective for pressure.

 

[b2jammer]

So I've tried some matches with other characters, Ryu and Roy in particular, and recorded some matches against Bayonetta, who's been giving me the most trouble lately out of the character's I'm playing against (AFAIK most of her playstyle involves exploiting neutral moreso than other characters, which is still a somewhat weak point of mine despite my improvements and practice), so here are some more replays:

Roy 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcLB4uM6-Ek&index=32&list=PLQBApjMXPDRs8qm3c7-KaM_MqGckptGIp
Roy 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7fKw7w_eSA&index=33&list=PLQBApjMXPDRs8qm3c7-KaM_MqGckptGIp
Roy 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVlwIt0e8nI&index=34&list=PLQBApjMXPDRs8qm3c7-KaM_MqGckptGIp
Ryu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4FE2LdwrcM&index=35&list=PLQBApjMXPDRs8qm3c7-KaM_MqGckptGIp

Any further advice would be appreciated.

 

[Cheeks]

Hey dude, this thread popped up on my alerts. I watched all your new videos. When you were playing as Roy, alot of your attacks weren't that safe because you kept getting shield grabbed. Also, I'm thinking Roy isn't very strong against Bayonetta but I'm not sure.

But let me give you props on your last game using Ryu! You played way way better!! It looked like you played much more patiently and turned the table against her by shielding alot of her unsafe attacks and then punishing her. Plus you got a whole bunch of grabs exploiting her "safe" play style. She was basically spamming witch time, side b, and then up close would sit in shield waiting for you to do an unsafe attack so she could punish. Good job adapting and beating her.

 

[b2jammer]

Hey dude, this thread popped up on my alerts. I watched all your new videos. When you were playing as Roy, alot of your attacks weren't that safe because you kept getting shield grabbed. Also, I'm thinking Roy isn't very strong against Bayonetta but I'm not sure.

Looking back at it, yeah there wasn't much I could do because Roy's lack of range and neutral pressure kills him in that matchup.

But let me give you props on your last game using Ryu! You played way way better!! It looked like you played much more patiently and turned the table against her by shielding alot of her unsafe attacks and then punishing her. Plus you got a whole bunch of grabs exploiting her "safe" play style. She was basically spamming witch time, side b, and then up close would sit in shield waiting for you to do an unsafe attack so she could punish. Good job adapting and beating her.

Thanks I think Ryu has a much easier time against Bayonetta with his "all rounder" build, but I feel like I did much better there too.
Also, apparently Ryu's up throw is a kill move... sort of (~150% fresh with rage).