Are fast characters inherently better?

[crabflesh]

My question is whether fast characters are inherently better than slow, powerful ones. When I play PM with my roommate, he always complains that I dominate him with my speed (my sheik vs his kirby). I want to say this isnt necessarily the case but I'm having trouble coming up with a counter argument. He cites the fact that "in all the games, the top tiers are all fast characters", which is sort of true, I guess, but not exactly. What sort of advice can I give him to help him improve his game against fast characters? Any advice for him for the kirby/sheik mu?

 

[LCL]

Kirby is 2nd in Smash 64
Jiggs and Peach are 5th and 6th in Melee
And in Project M there are lots of good slow characters.

 

[ShadowGanon]

 

[crabflesh]

Haha yes that was my reply to his argument was to warlock punch him 3 times the next game.

 

[grandpappy]

Well if you land Warlock Punch on him, speed is not his problem. He's just bad.

 

[crabflesh]

Welllllll, be that as it may, tellIng him he's bad probably isnt the best way to help him :/

 

[grandpappy]

You're right. I'll try to be helpful. Maybe you could show him videos of top PM Kirby players? Kirby isn't really "slow" (I mean, sure, he's not fast but he has some moves that come out really quickly and he can get around just fine). And if he's anything like me, watching a character at it's best is really exciting! Kirby can also probably do some really mean stuff to Sheik off stage since Sheik doesn't have a silly PM recovery. He might think gimping you is pretty fun.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

If he still doesn't listen to reason, there's probably nothing you can do for him. I have pretty much the same situation. One friend of mine likes Smash but is really bad, and complains that everything is OP. Even if I choose Ganon/GnW/etc. and beat him, he complains that I played "cheaply". It's true that telling your friend he's bad won't make him better, but he also has to realize that he is, indeed, bad and stop making excuses before he can make any real improvement.

 

[crabflesh]

Thanks for the advice! He does agree that he's "bad" but since its easy to get discouraged I try to be encouraging. Ive been watching some sheik vs kirby matchups and it seems like kirby was landing a ton of arials and grabs. Im no kirby expert so would you guys say those are good tactics to use vs sheik/ other characters in general?

 

[ECHOnce]

Sheik-Kirby MU? Well for starters, get him to CC > D-Smash or F-Smash to stuff Sheik's approaches/combos. Then just show him how to SHFFL and DI out of combos and stuff

 

[grandpappy]

Thanks for the advice! He does agree that he's "bad" but since its easy to get discouraged I try to be encouraging. Ive been watching some sheik vs kirby matchups and it seems like kirby was landing a ton of arials and grabs. Im no kirby expert so would you guys say those are good tactics to use vs sheik/ other characters in general?

Yeah, Sheik's air game is not so good. Kirby's air game is pretty good. Kirby beats Sheik in the air pretty solidly I think.

Kirby's crouch is powerful. Dtilt/Dsmash are his friends.

 

[crabflesh]

Yeah, Sheik's air game is not so good. Kirby's air game is pretty good. Kirby beats Sheik in the air pretty solidly I think.

Kirby's crouch is powerful. Dtilt/Dsmash are his friends.

Do you think so? At first glance I would think sheik is better in the air because she seems to outrange kirby, but there's definitely more to it than that; kirby has better mobility, and more options; I'll definitely have to bring that to his attention.

 

[grandpappy]

Do you think so? At first glance I would think sheik is better in the air because she seems to outrange kirby, but there's definitely more to it than that; kirby has better mobility, and more options; I'll definitely have to bring that to his attention.

I mean, general rule of thumb with Sheik is stay on the ground unless your opponent is in hitstun in the air right? That's because Sheik isn't very good in the air unless she already has an advantage. Kirby's aerials come out pretty fast. And have nice hitboxes (Bair is probably bigger that his tiny legs let on). I feel like even if the two were trading hits in the air, it would still be a better situation for Kirby.

 

[Exodo]

i wreck using both Ganon and Bowser.. speed is not a problem in my opinion.

 

[victinivcreate1]

i wreck using both Ganon and Bowser.. speed is not a problem in my opinion.

They are when you play someone who wrecks with space animals/Marth/Lucas/Diddy Kong/other fast character.

 

[ShadowGanon]

They are when you play someone who wrecks with space animals/Marth/Lucas/Diddy Kong/other fast character.

*cough* *cough*Mewtwo*cough* *cough*

 

[Subtle One]

*cough* *cough*Mewtwo*cough* *cough*

*w00p*

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

Do you think so? At first glance I would think sheik is better in the air because she seems to outrange kirby, but there's definitely more to it than that; kirby has better mobility, and more options; I'll definitely have to bring that to his attention.

Sheik is bad in the air. First rule of Sheik keep your *** on the ground. I haven't played her for more than a couple of days, but it's a painfully obvious part of her meta. You might be able to punish somethings with nair, and well spaced bairs but that's about it. She does much better using her great movement, tilts, jab resets and amazing grab game, rather than attempting futile aerial approaches. Tell your friend to approach by air and range his moves to be as safe on shield as possible. Alot of Sheik's stuff is crouch cancelable, but that amazing grab game makes up for it. Tell him to punish you with Dsmashes if you do something unsafe like dash attack at low percentages. Most of all teach him how to DI out of you're combos. If you don't know how to DI against Sheik you're going to eat alot of damage and it's going to happen quickly. Kirby is one of those characters that shouldn't be getting juggled with tilts like a circus clown. Lastly, teach him how to punish your recovery. If you don't punish Sheik's recovery, you lose. That's just the truth.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

@ the original question...
No.

/thread

 

[Raijinken]

Despite the 2nd and lower positions sometimes having slow characters, the topmost character is always fast. So, while I would not say they are "inherently" better, I would say they are "historically" better. Fortunately, PM is close enough to balanced to make up for that with skill.

 

[archedmaid]

Reaction times every thing.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Fast is inherently better than slow. Long range is inherently better than short range. Etc, etc. The challenge is to manipulate the distribution of these beneficial characteristics in a way that creates diverse, interesting, and balanced characters.

 

[Bleck]

Speed is a very vague thing to be making judgments by.

 

[Phaiyte]

I think your friend has ultra bad positioning problems more than anything.
Speed is always an inherently good stat, but ultimately it completely depends on the player's positioning and how they use what they have.

 

[crabflesh]

Does anyone have any advice on how to use kirbys air movement? My roommate basically isnt sure how to counter my fast air movement speed in comparison to kirby's relatively slow speed in the air. How/when should he chase me and how/when should he get away?

 

[Strong Badam]

All else equal, yes, a faster character will be better. Quite obvious. Slower characters often have powerful attributes to balance out their lack of speed, though, so you don't always find the fastest characters at the top of the tier list.

 

[wingedarcher7]

While fast characters tend to be at the top of the tier list, they don't completely fill it up. Speed is a good aspect to have on someone, but they have less power and can be knocked back easier due to being lighter. Balances need to be met and that's what Project M goes for. I basically don't think it's right for someone to say they lost just because their opponent was using a faster character, plenty of aspects involving skill can overcome that.

 

[crabflesh]

I think my roommate would argue that sheik is fast and she "hits like a truck" in the air (namely referring to her fair). What are some like, specific disadvantages that sheik has in the air that I can get him to capitalize on?