Approaching and Movement

[DKMikey]

What are your best ways to approach an enemy, or move around so a mobile enemy can't hit you?

For me:
Approaching:
Dash attack, up smash, jump cancel, down air, aura sphere (if opponent got hit) or double team (if opponent is shielding)
Grounded Down B, aura cancel, jab combo (jab, jab, tilt, smash)
Walk up side B

Moving:
Down B
Dash Dancing (rarely)


Just looking for ideas to improve my Lucario. As you can tell, I'm not approaching or moving with Lucario very well.

 

[PcTriumph]

As far as approaching goes, use your Down B as a primary approach tool. Mix up with grounded and aerial down B cancels, Down-B bair-> side b or dair -> side B is very very strong and leads to a free techchase / punish for no tech. Down-b cancel downsmash is a good way to cover options, and on connection you can aura sphere cancel or down b again for free follow ups. I don't really recommend doing a walk up side B because it's so punishable on spot dodge, jump, or wave dash, a regular dash grab, or even better jump cancel grab. As far as avoiding the opponents pressure, down B is definitely a sure way to avoid attacks, just be predictable and when they come to follow up, down b out. Also, dash dancing with Lucario is great, he's very fast and has great grab punishes, and also it looks pretty cool. As far as moving out of shield, I just recommend wavedashing out of shield, it's pretty hard to get OoS punishes with Lucario, except with bair for the most part.

 

[bec]

short hop dair is also pretty great in my experience. you can cancel into a side b from it.
be careful with DA cause it is pretty predictable and easily punished.
aura spheres can be good to either force an approach or help you approach. short hop or grounded AS can help limit the opponents options for movement and thus make your approach a little easier

i like down b and up b both for movement options. also rather than running around i tend to do the initial dash however many times i need, it makes me feel more mobile and feels easier to act out of. his dash dance is good as well.

 

[tripp6313]

I find that the best tactic with Lu isn't so much the approach. Rather its the counter approach. Keep you're opponent coming to you. If you can get the spot dodge in then your golden. you force them to shield then they're pretty much yours for whatever you want. and AS is pretty handy tool. Definitely towards squirt (sorry not much of a lu player so I will kinda have to relate stuff to squirt) which its easy to trick a few times into a false since of security with his withdraw due to the fact that baby AS (bAS?) is easy to plow through with W/D and unfortunately squirtle is vulnerable to grabs so SideB is beastly for punishes so going for the fake on a bAS will then be easily followed up with a SideB (though i will admit i do know Force Palm technically isn't always the best option because it isn't a seamless transition on that technique). And i think approach also dwindles down to who is the MU and what is their skill level. Spacies are combo food and Lu without a doubt a combo king so its basically getting that start going.. where as someone like peach may involve more bait and punish approaches. I'm kinda just on a rant but then again down here in good old s ville my only opponent i get to go against on a regular is a Lu player so i kinda live in the Lu land... here i am frequently destroyed by so many tricks of the trades.

so anyways back to the topic at hand... approach... well Depends on who you're after... Movement... I feel like the air game is a bit of a commitment game and that a lot of how to counter it is out moving him. but at the same time I'm TERRIFIED of what Lu's air game consists of.... its pretty brutal... But if i can bait and punish against it then i do win some interesting follow ups against him..but then again i do play squirtle and again most of what i have to do is NEVER stop moving because all of squirtle's play style is depended on out moving opponents... but yea my follow up with this is also my fav approach to see done against me would have to be Friggin extreme speed into a cancelled forward smash... that crap makes me jump EVERY time... or friggin whenever it can be reversed like friggin hydroplane... >< its just not fair hahah

 

[Darkgun]

So after getting a bit more tournament experience under my belt, I feel like perhaps I can throw a few thoughts into the mix.

Let's start with accepting that Lucario is bad at approaching. He doesn't have any incredibly safe disjointed moves (maybe you can count dtilt if you are feeling your oats) for use as pokes, nor any really fast poke 'n' run options (read: nairplane), and unless you connect with... well, anything, most of his moves are met with an easily punishable endlag. In all seriousness, your best approach option is probably going to be an positional pressure. DD near your opponent, throw BAS (and then get in closer using the cover it provides), moonwalk>bair (favorite tool: style points + some safety), throw cautious fairs (use the move early and pressure with the late hitbox). Your "approach" should be on an opponent that has overextended even slightly more than their character can manage. In all honesty, your objective in a set is to convince your opponent that they should go into shield instead of swat you away when you approach, as once you've done this, your opponent has stopped moving, you now have ready access to FP during approach [Note: Be matchup wary! Characters with strong OoS options are best treated with respect.], and you've probably made the set loads easier on yourself.

So what about patient players? I've not really had to face anyone who has chosen to wait out Lucario yet, but in these cases, you will likely have to approach with one of the options that have been mentioned in previous posts, but even then, you'll be trying to bait attacks out of them.

For surprise approachs: DTC>Fsmash, Nair crossup (with expectation to land on shield) [>FP if viable.], DT crossup, late hit DA>DT for a pressuring crossup, DD>grab, fullhop>AB crossup (This should only be done after applying serious positional pressure or forcing your opponent into stagger. Even then, I would advise against using this.), or for shield pressure a mid-hit DA>dtilt>usmash(1st)>FP/DT[Depends upon enemy OoS] (Note that this isn't a perfectly safe option and can be buffer rolled out of).

 

[AbstractLogic]

I've been dabbling with lucario for the past week or two and although i'm not experienced with him in tourney, I have a decent amount of tourney experience with my main (Diddy lol). Lucario is super fun to play, but with his current design I feel he will be that sort of Captain Falcon/Ganon OutYOLO you to win tier. He has some really good movement options and has an incredible approach WITH aura, however i feel that if the opponent knows his tricks then it's a terrible time against a character with a strong neutral game. I wouldn't suggest say an overhaul, but I feel as if his issues were more or less masked with giving him more aura effectively. I feel he could benefit greatly from having a better aerial approach option (lolsexkick) or something similar. I think lucario is in a comfy spot power level wise, but I don't think he has what it takes to contend with the top 10s strictly because of his neutral game.

That being said, those who are exploring this character in tourney and having success, I have lots of respect for you guys and hope you guys continue to push him with his current toolset. I don't wanna be that guy that cries for buffs because of troubles with MUs, but I am trying to look at this more from a design perspective.

 

[AnguzBeef]

Just wanted to add in a little approaching tool I saw on new videos from videogame bootcamp today.
The lucario was approaching very aggressively with Fair>DT
short hop fair, normal jump with fair, falling fair, etc. The run towards normal jump fair(immediately) DT keeps you safe as long as you land the hit, shield or not; and can help apply pressure to get your opponent shielding more often.

 

[AbstractLogic]

Just wanted to add in a little approaching tool I saw on new videos from clashtournaments today.
The lucario was approaching very aggressively with Fair>DT
short hop fair, normal jump with fair, falling fair, etc. The run towards normal jump fair(immediately) DT keeps you safe as long as you land the hit, shield or not; and can help apply pressure to get your opponent shielding more often.

I will experiment with... Thank you for sharing man!

 

[Risky]

In neutral game if you're standing still, you should probably be DD'ing. Lucario's moveset doesn't lend itself to approaching that well until you condition your opponent. I do a lot of jumping AS and ASC to keep them guessing when I'm going to throw it out. If they're varying their approach pattern (fulljump, shorthop, djc) then simply jump and fire it at different heights. You also threaten an aerial DT cancel at different heights and can occasionally just kill someone with a Nair out of it if they don't DI well.

Ground DT -> Dtilt is easily one of my favorite approaches as it covers a lot of space and you're pretty safe doing it. You can start pretty much any match like that if you're on a flat stage. DT -> Dtilt -> FP and it's free followup on any of the cast.

 

[KhanYe]

Question, when approaching, I noticed a pretty fundamental difference between Frozen's 'Cario and most other players. He loves his dash attack --> ASC --> grab --> followups, but I was wondering if that's more productive than dash attack --> ftilt --> forcepalm/usmash, followups.

 

[Risky]

Question, when approaching, I noticed a pretty fundamental difference between Frozen's 'Cario and most other players. He loves his dash attack --> ASC --> grab --> followups, but I was wondering if that's more productive than dash attack --> ftilt --> forcepalm/usmash, followups.

If it's out of a DA, I almost always do the ftilt -> FP followups. It's dependent on the enemy character and their DI I would say. FP and Lucario's throws have no combos on certain characters. Really though I'd say it comes down to preference more than anything. If you're getting the combo that's enough. I'd be wary though as setups that involve ASC a grounded move into a grab can get you jabbed, shined, the like.

 

[Zoa]

I feel he could benefit greatly from having a better aerial approach option (lolsexkick) or something similar.

Swap nair with fair and give it more significant sex kick properties?

 

[KhanYe]

Swap nair with fair and give it more significant sex kick properties?

Naw, nair is beautiful, but ya, Lucario would greatly benefit from a sex kick like Link's or Fox's. Swap fair for a sex kick, or make his current nair his fair and replace his nair with a sex kick.

 

[Zoa]

Naw, nair is beautiful, but ya, Lucario would greatly benefit from a sex kick like Link's or Fox's. Swap fair for a sex kick, or make his current nair his fair and replace his nair with a sex kick.

That's sorta what I said my man. Change the inputs for fair and nair, so fair becomes his nair and vice versa. By doing this, and giving our blue guy more significant sex kick properties on a swapped fair, then he has a better aerial approach for set ups.