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Applied Pivots?

Myst0

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 9, 2015
Messages
65
Location
Utah
Hey guys! I have a question on how to apply pivots into my game? Here are some that I came up with.

1. dash->pivot->grab ledge
2. dash->pivot->grab
3. dash->pivot->neutral jump -> aerial?
4. dash->pivot->jab

I only see myself ever using 1,2, and 4. What are some other useful things pivots can get me and how are they applicable as falcon?

Thanks guys!
 

MrMaples

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
15
2 and 3 are the only ones you need to do, If you're fast on the jump you dont even need to do that dumb control stick input to do the pivot, plus you can just fade back in the dash to get the same effect.

IMO GX pivots are dumb,
 

Myst0

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 9, 2015
Messages
65
Location
Utah
2 and 3 are the only ones you need to do, If you're fast on the jump you dont even need to do that dumb control stick input to do the pivot, plus you can just fade back in the dash to get the same effect.

IMO GX pivots are dumb,
Thats what I thought, why do I even need to pivot aerial when I can just fade back. That is why I created this thread.
 

タオー

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It gives you more control, making you commit less outright. Fade back can get called out, where neutral jump out of pivot allows you to respond to someone trying to threaten your space. From ledge, pivot out of Aerial Interrupt bair and do an ftilt, such a good option to pressure when they go in too much when trying to get you off the ledge. Ideally, pivots are a super useful spacing tool. Learn to use them in between your dash dances to claim space in a neutral state without having to use WD. It's a faster option and most people have trouble responding to it.
 

MrMaples

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
15
a fade back aerial is safer then a pivot and get the same job done. both produce a move at the same speed. in my opinion it clogs up neutral you can also just do a shield stop to pivot slower, easier more control. However, what makes the pivot aerial so good is how far you can fade back with it, or forward IMO adding frame perfect commands in neutral seems like a cog in neutral if youre an up and comer and trying to learn how to win matches


The pivot looks kinda swag. but if you're a beginner falcon it's not something that should be focused on
some of more focus should be Nair dash turn around Nair same exact effect as the pivot and easier to do. it's also a very similar input as the pivot so when the time comes and you can do the gx pivot on command it's a very easy implement in your games

https://youtu.be/HZXbnAa0t2s?t=33m42s Look how hax practices, It's easy to emulate that style of aerial.
 
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MrMaples

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At the end of the day though, play with your heart if you wanna do those crazy pivots do it. If you wanna moon walk across FD and approach with a reverse knee do it.
 

タオー

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Thank you protato for saying everything I wanted to say on the subject. It takes some practice to get it down, but it's very useful, since you can execute pivot aerials out of dash, and place them WHEREVER YOU WANT. Falcon's control of space and his ability to impose that threat directs the flow of a game. If you watch high level Falcon play, spacing and zoning methods play a very integral part into how Falcon finds openings.
 

MrMaples

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Jun 24, 2013
Messages
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I think theres a alittle misunderstanding. You can fadeback/forward in any aerial do pivot or not, and you should use that feature for every aerial you do. and you can do the aerials i was talking about out of a dash, which is why it does the same job.

you're pivotting regardless it's just not a perfect pivot you carry some momentum of your dash
 
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Myst0

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Feb 9, 2015
Messages
65
Location
Utah
Hey thanks to everyone who responded. Maples I think the difference is its a little more controlled and a bit faster atleast thats my current understanding!

once again thanks to everyone!
 

MrMaples

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
15
it aint any faster because you can jump anywhere in a dash, you can get the same type of pivot to if you time your jump on the same frame you turn around, I just think going specifically for the pivot input bogs down your game especially in tournament setting. and it's best use is a anti-approach which you have to read their attack. there's just way more effective ways to anti approach if we're talking optimal play. but like i said earlier, play with your heart if you think its right. go for it IMO thouugh there's way better options to do the same effect
 

タオー

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Out of pivot you have more control of your aerial spacing, where if you fade back they can learn to bait that option, which will leave you vulnerable. Pivot aerials allow you to threaten space without throwing out a move, so you can hang in a space where they cannot approach and punish their whiff, or you can space a nair or late uair on shield and still have control to fade them back so you can stay safe. In this scenario, pivots allow you to gather more information about your opponents habits and apply them in the moment; you can use pivot aerials like this to shift momentum into your favor. Jumping out of dash in contrast limits your control as you maintain momentum from your dash. For someone who understands the minutia of these mechanics, that is a chink in the armor. If they know you can't pivot aerial you essentially let them get in on you more easily, since you're no longer able to threaten that space as effectively.

IMHO I believe there are two elements for how you should be using optimal movement options like this. The first is the obvious rush down that you can accomplish by maximizing your speed and placement, laying on safe pressure that puts your opponent on thin ice. The second relates to gaining control of the match: If you are moving optimally, you actually have more time to react to your opponent and get a feel for how they're trying to accomplish their goals (beat you). This is especially useful when your opponent is in an advantageous position, but can also be used to close out stocks. For example:

During a tech chase situation on a space animal, you can spend your time doing the BnB tech chase of dash->WD grab, etc. and at the same time keep track of your opponents tech habits. In this way you can get reads and gamble big for moral crushing victories. Likewise, say you're in the corner on battlefield, and you don't know how your opponent is planning to finish you off. So you dash dance, try to get them to commit to something. Assuming your opponent is Falco they have a myriad of options, but the moment they put one out there they give you a small opportunity for escape, given you're observant enough.

Off the top of my head I'd expect an AC bair, nair, fsmash, or dair if they're aggressive, maybe a laser to mess up my movement, so if I'm assuming they're going to try and pressure, I'd either call out the move with a PS (projectile reflect is 2 frames, melee attack is 4 frames, not overly difficult), or pivot WD out of my DD to ledge and respond with either an invincible aerial, ledge stall, or just regular roll up.

If they're defensive and just waiting to wall you out, I'd expect turn around up tilt, AC bair, nair, ftilt, dtilt, or if they're being tricky a fade back dair. While these tactics can be difficult to get around, you can bait with pivot jumps and pivot aerials (pivot nair on shield like S2J, such amazing spacing) to get them to commit. Most Falco's will try to bair/nair/dair aerials on shield, and unless they do a super late bair (maybe nair as well), you can punish with an OoS uair before the shine.

TLDR: Pivots allow you to set the pace of a match, and force your opponent to commit when you haven't given up your position.
 

MrMaples

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There's many forms of pivoting, and it is a staple for falcon, but the perfect turn around pivot isnt a staple, and that's the only thing im trying to get across. I don't understand how that's so complicated to understand,
 

タオー

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There's many forms of pivoting, and it is a staple for falcon, but the perfect turn around pivot isnt a staple, and that's the only thing im trying to get across. I don't understand how that's so complicated to understand,
Well... I'm glad you cleared that up. I'd agree it's not a staple, but it is definitely a very useful tool that I feel Falcon could get a lot of mileage out of.
 

M-Tude

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Jan 30, 2014
Messages
66
Honestly, as far as I can tell there's actually only one form of pivoting, and one way to emulate it. The one way to do it is to press a button on the 1 frame you turn around. The only way of simulating the same sort of no-momentum attack after a turn is with a shield stop. Personally I don't think that trying to fade back with a nair after a quick turnaround and dash doesn't cut it.

If you're a raw beginner I'd say learn to DD first, but I think pivots are pretty essential if you aspire to mid-high level melee

In terms of space, like protato was saying, a dash fade back Nair has a very telegraphed range of where it lands too. That area is a lot more susceptible for, say a fox to come in a running shine you during your lag.

Pivots are faster because they cut out the frames of dashing that come before a turn-dash aerial.

Also, it's not a pivot if you carry momentum with you. The conversation gets pretty confusing up top about what a pivot is, so lets make that distinction.
 

タオー

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Messages
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Location
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Honestly, as far as I can tell there's actually only one form of pivoting, and one way to emulate it. The one way to do it is to press a button on the 1 frame you turn around. The only way of simulating the same sort of no-momentum attack after a turn is with a shield stop. Personally I don't think that trying to fade back with a nair after a quick turnaround and dash doesn't cut it.

If you're a raw beginner I'd say learn to DD first, but I think pivots are pretty essential if you aspire to mid-high level melee

In terms of space, like protato was saying, a dash fade back Nair has a very telegraphed range of where it lands too. That area is a lot more susceptible for, say a fox to come in a running shine you during your lag.

Pivots are faster because they cut out the frames of dashing that come before a turn-dash aerial.

Also, it's not a pivot if you carry momentum with you. The conversation gets pretty confusing up top about what a pivot is, so lets make that distinction.
Alright, let's break this down, cause you're mostly right, but lets be clear. There are 2 forms of pivoting: pivot "moves" (any pivot to any action that can follow a pivot) and empty pivots (which I've heard also have 2 forms). Pivot moves are just as you said, pivot and do an input for something on the first frame of turn. This is how pivot fsmash works for Marth, as well as pivot jumps for Falcon. An empty pivot is inputting a dash and then a dash in the other direction for 1 frame, done by either "flickin' the stick" or doing the pivot dtilt motion laid out by Kadano and in the context of Falcon, by Gravy. These allow you to do a pivot without committing to a move afterwards, letting you turn on a dime.

Now within empty pivots there are apparently 2 forms, one that is literally a 1 frame link out of dash IIRC, and will carry over some momentum out of dash. This is why Gravy says that dash pivot WD to ledge is so useful. Don't quote me on this part though, cause this is coming from recall memory from watching some early 20GX streams.

I would recommend trying to get the empty pivot down, as it will just help your pivots and you can do pivot moves with the empty pivot motion. Mixing DD with pivots, moonwalks/stickywalks to boost runs, Falcon's ground game gets super scary for your opponent. Mix that with pivot fade back aerials out of dash dance, and then you've really got some good tools to work with.

P.S.
Pivot on ledge to edgehog is next level. Get that down and watch Falcon's edgeguards skyrocket.
 
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