Any thought being put into changing final smash mechanics?

[BronzeGreekGod]

This is mostly to the PMBR (unless anyone else knows stuff about this)
I was just wondering if anything like this is being considered at all...

First of all, I know final smashes are very unpopular (I play with them set to off myself), but I think something like this would make them a little more tangible to be used in a fight at least on occasion.

I was thinking perhaps there could be an option (in the items menu) to choose how a final smash is acquired. Right now as we know, you can only get a final smash with the stupid smash ball. So if there was an option you could set where you could choose to attain a final smash via a "special meter" (like lucario's) where you'd get your final smash after dealing a certain amount of damage, that would be more interesting. There is a code that works with this idea, but it as a lot of flaws, so forget about that. I'm thinking of a mechanic that would be much deeper.

The amount of damage you deal would only be one thing the special meter would take into account to charge up. If you get a kill for example, that could charge the special meter more. Vice versa, if you are killed, the special meter is completely depleted. Also, if you begin not doing so well in game (even without dying), your special meter can be slowly depleted. Once a final smash is attained, it can be beaten out of a character as well, but this wouldn't spawn a smash ball out of the character. This would give everyone a chance to attain a final smash based on their performance rather than a random bouncy ball that anyone can steal at any time. One last thing, in the options where you choose to set this mechanic on, it would be nice if you could also choose how much you need to charge the special meter in order to attain a final smash (the minimum could be the equivalent of 300% damage for example but you can make that higher if you want it to be extra hard to attain a final smash).

So any thoughts on this?

 

[Rikana]

What if they had Mario Brothers in there?

 

[GP&B]

I've always liked the idea of a special meter for FS's. Who cares about the comparisons with TFG's when it's an effective system?

Problems is that I think FS's would need to be homogenized to a great extent to really make this fair and that would take a lot of work.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

What if they had Mario Brothers in there?

Huh?

I've always liked the idea of a special meter for FS's. Who cares about the comparisons with TFG's when it's an effective system?

Problems is that I think FS's would need to be homogenized to a great extent to really make this fair and that would take a lot of work.

Ya I think that could become an "issue", but it could be worked with over time (if they decided to do it they could equalize everyone final smash). Plus if they did it at a basic level for now they could edit it later (cause it would be an option, you could still turn final smashes off completely is what I'm thinking)

and another possible solution could be that characters with more powerful final smashes would just have a larger special meter to charge.

 

[Nail.exe]

The problem with the smash ball isn't really (well, kind of) the way that you get the final smash, it's what happens when you do.

For instance, let's say you're playing Brawl, and it's a pretty close game, the last stock. Your dignity or maybe even a dollar might be on the line, so you're sweating a little bit as the pressure is setting in. Then, the smash ball shows up. You (or the other guy, it doesn't really matter) deftly grab it before pressing the B button and 6/7 times wins the match just because they grabbed the smash ball.

I understand that you get this, or you wouldn't have made this post, so just bear with me.

Now, the final smash might have a cool cutscene, maybe, but when you win a match with it, it's not incredibly skill intensive. There was not deftly set up spike, no mindgames, nothing challenging for the player or mind blowing for the spectator about it, provided that they've seen someone win with that final smash before.

Now let's say that instead of the smash ball, every character has the mega ultra double decker Shoryuken bar, and if they do X amount of ass kicking within Y number of restraining factors....

They get to press B and win 6/7 times, just like above. And I'm sorry to say, but if you give up the "randomness" of the smashball for a combo meter like you have here, something almost worse appears. It's the exact opposite of "rubber banding," so to speak, and it's still a bad thing: a player who takes a significant lead will almost certainly maintain that lead. The game will say, "good job, you kicked his ass so hard in the first half of the match, the second one won't even matter. You'll just be wasting each other's time."

Upsets and comebacks are what Smash Bros a great game to watch and play competitively. They are the stuff that hype is made from. While I'm not such a fatalist to say that Final Smashes could never, ever be genetically spliced into something, dare I say it FUN to play with,

one button super combos just make the game less fun.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

The problem with the smash ball isn't really (well, kind of) the way that you get the final smash, it's what happens when you do.

For instance, let's say you're playing Brawl, and it's a pretty close game, the last stock. Your dignity or maybe even a dollar might be on the line, so you're sweating a little bit as the pressure is setting in. Then, the smash ball shows up. You (or the other guy, it doesn't really matter) deftly grab it before pressing the B button and 6/7 times wins the match just because they grabbed the smash ball.

I understand that you get this, or you wouldn't have made this post, so just bear with me.

Now, the final smash might have a cool cutscene, maybe, but when you win a match with it, it's not incredibly skill intensive. There was not deftly set up spike, no mindgames, nothing challenging for the player or mind blowing for the spectator about it, provided that they've seen someone win with that final smash before.

Now let's say that instead of the smash ball, every character has the mega ultra double decker Shoryuken bar, and if they do X amount of *** kicking within Y number of restraining factors....

They get to press B and win 6/7 times, just like above. And I'm sorry to say, but if you give up the "randomness" of the smashball for a combo meter like you have here, something almost worse appears. It's the exact opposite of "rubber banding," so to speak, and it's still a bad thing: a player who takes a significant lead will almost certainly maintain that lead. The game will say, "good job, you kicked his *** so hard in the first half of the match, the second one won't even matter. You'll just be wasting each other's time."

Upsets and comebacks are what Smash Bros a great game to watch and play competitively. They are the stuff that hype is made from. While I'm not such a fatalist to say that Final Smashes could never, ever be genetically spliced into something, dare I say it FUN to play with,

one button super combos just make the game less fun.

Agreed, but that's why I'm mentioning it as an option... You can have smash balls on or off, and you can have the final smash meter on or off (so final smashes could be attained with a smash ball, with a special meter, or they're off altogether).

But this is also why final smashes could use some tweaking to balance them as well. Rather than them being purposely obnoxiously over powered, they could be weaker and/or perhaps have tweaked mechanics making them harder to pull off/aim/whatever.

 

[Nail.exe]

The reason that I'm having a hard time telling you just why your idea doesn't make any sense is because you're being so vague that it can't possibly be bad, because in its very conception and definition it is better and super fun. Of course, by the very nature of hypotheticals, if they somehow found a way, to in fact make zany and super cool looking and super-hard to pull off and approved by the science-children of Mew2King and Hungrybox, it would be awesome and change the metagame forever.

But I am not speaking in the realm of hypothetical, I am applying my knowledge in a logical fashion to try to imagine a scenario in which the PMBR says, "hey there, people who play our video game, we're going to recreate the final smash system from the ground up!" and when I imagine this, I have to think about it for a second and see whether it seems like something that could happen in real life, or if it seems like something a crazy person would vividly hallucinate. It is not the first one. It is the second one.

One final illustration:

If the PMBR were to spend their infinitely precious time and effort reworking final smashes, it would be like if you were homeless, and you needed food to not starve to death. You line up at the soup kitchen, and when you get to the front with your bowl, all the soup pots are full of play-doh. "What the hell is this?" You ask. And the lovely young woman behind the table says "You know, in case you wanted to, I dunno, mold stuff? For fun?" It seems absurd. The woman is actually just standing there, on her Saturday afternoon, because she wanted to feed the homeless, but she's not feeding the homeless, she's just giving them things they don't want while they starve.


It's kind of like that.

 

[Kally Wally]

You're referring to the same PMBR who, in 2 or fewer months, will be releasing this.

I guess we live in a world that's being vividly hallucinated by a crazy person.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Don't worry, you're not sounding demeaning Nail.exe
I see what you're saying, and I do understand what they're trying to to with P:M.
And to add to that, I don't EXPECT this to be something they will make a priority, or even do ever. I was just wondering if they've put any thought into something like this at all.

Now to counter what you're saying... they have added a lot of stuff that Melee didn't have, and they're doing stuff that is unnecessary as well. Adding little things to add to the "fun-ness" of the game. The main example of this is turbo mode.

Also, one could argue that changing the way final smashes work would be another way to make the game play more like melee. That is, it could be an imagined way of how final smashes might have worked in the world of Melee. Does that make sense?
I have read posts by the PMBR stating that P:M isn't supposed to BE Melee, its supposed to be like a proper sequel to melee, rather than what brawl was.
So that's just a thought..

Anyway, again I don't have expectations of this, I just think it would be interesting.

 

[Nail.exe]

Ok, yeah, I might have missed the very first line of your first post. Sometimes I do this thing where people aren't talking to me and I think that they actually are.... And then things get awkward.... I also might have been a bit over the line with that last post, so I edited some of the content that could have been construed as flaming, for instance, "I'm not trying to be demeaning but" is pretty much trollspeak for exactly the opposite, but I was actually being serious about that, and now I'm rambling again.

But. I have typed myself into this corner, so I shall type myself through the wall.

It could be said that turbo mode is the polar opposite of a final smash-

It is the illogical extreme of the combo video: take a combo video, put it through a blender, and boil off everything that isn't the hashish of hype.
Turbo mode isn't an absolutely ridiculous idea, it's a mostly ridiculous idea with a dash of genius.

How can anyone replicate that jaw-dropping moment when you first saw a gilded god glide around FD in a way that didn't seem possible back when Bush was still president? Make it faster? Make it more technical? Make it more ridiculous? I think the videos speak for themselves. You're right that Turbo Mode is giving P:M something that Melee hasn't got, and you're right in thinking that P:M's potential extends beyond the smash games before it.

After some reflection, Bronze, I'd bet that the answer to your question- did they think about it- is yes. And it's probably why Turbo Mode is a thing. If I had decided to make a decent argument out of all this, I probably would have stated the (some of which removed) points made in my second post a lot more politely alongside a more understandable description of P:M design philosophy to show why the PMBR asking themselves "how do we make final smashes better?" would result in the answer, "make it something completely different."

Or maybe they can tell you. I dunno.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Haha, ur a funny guy

But ya man I don't disagree with you.. Final smashes would need a lot of work to make them usable competitively. There's a good chance even if they added this as an option like I'm suggesting, it would still never be used competitively. Which is fine cause not everyone is super competitive.

And ya final smashes and turbo mode are pretty opposite, but I was just using turbo mode as an example of stuff they added that makes P:M have significant additions to it that weren't in melee.

IF my finial smash suggestion was something they'd consider, I'm sure it would be a side project after they've completely finished their primary goals.

In any case, I was hoping a PMBRer would take a look at this and give us some insight

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I may need to make a new thread for this, because its kind of a different topic, but we could probably talk about it here...

What about characters that don't have final smashes right now? Is there being work put into them getting one?

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

What if they had Mario Brothers in there?

I know this is unlikely but are you referencing this video?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T3eTRB2kfsw

"What if they had Mario Brothers in there?" should be the next meme for whenever someone brings up Smash Bros. XD

 

[l3thargy]

as I've said in a previous thread

"Couldn't they change it so a character could charge a invisible meter or something and treat FS's like a ultra/super from street fighter, kind of how lucario's aura works, only on a much larger scale (I'm going to lean a little more on the ultra side here) like if you take enough damage to you're percent, say about 250% (or less depending on the weight of the character, higher weight needing more while light weights needing less) you get to perform a Final Smash with that character, preferably they should all be relatively balanced with each other.

I figure that in order to use one and still have it somewhat balanced would be for the only time you'd get to be able perform one is if you are also at a really high killing percent, that way even if you're at that percent you'd still feel like you have a good fighting chance, but I wouldn't want it to be a instant death move unless the other player was near 150% (or again depending on the character weight, less) that way you could lessen the damage gap by a fair margin so either player could win or lose.

and even if you are not the first character to be able to perform a final smash you would probably end up getting one yourself if you got hit by another on."

 

[ShadoWPassoS]

I think it is a great ideia, they would have to balance though. The special should be build by taking damage, stead of applying; because this would help the loser side, like a cameback mechanics. And if specials were powerful enough to kill, like they are in brawl, people would probably increase the stock, or other solution would be making them weaker.

 

[Ace55]

The special should be build by taking damage, stead of applying;

If there is anything I don't want it's a mechanic that rewards the loser of a match. Comebacks are sweet but the game shouldn't help you accomplish them.


I would suggest giving it to a character when he performs a combo of x hits or x% (or just consecutive hits within a certain time period without getting hit yourself). With it disappearing as soon as you drop the combo so not only do you have to perform the combo to get it but you have to use it to finish said combo (at which point the victim should be at kill% anyway). However since the combo potential of chars is wildly different balancing this could be a nightmare (not to mention coding it).

 

[Chzrm3]

I think it'd be pretty fun as a special mode. Just like stamina and turbo mode, they could have a "super meter" mode, and then let people go crazy in there.

 

[meow]

I think that FS should not be in regular games at all. If someone has lived to that high of a %, then they deserve to keep on living (for the short amount of time). Why reward someone with a FS when they can't finish off their opponent?

 

[Yurya]

How about once you deal 100% (or maybe 150%) of damage you activate the Final Smash ball already captured. It can be knocked out of you and stolen. Only possible if items are on and the Smash Ball. Damage dealt with Final Smash does not add to the next one.

 

[N00B64]

they could probably make it in "specialbrawl" like they are doing with turbo-mode.
that way the smashballs would work the same for the people who like using them that way, and it wouldn't interfere with people tournys were its "1v1/2v2 no items"

 

[AgentSyrup]

I always wished GigaBowser could have been fightable in Brawl (as in hits would actual knock him back).
I would love it if PMBR changed Bowser's final smash so that it lasted longer but was actually capable of being dealt with.

 

[Malion]

I think giving characters like Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard some semblance of a final smash would be the first thing to do before working on in some way changing the mechanics of the smash ball.