Answers to these anti-Falco playstyles?

[L33thal]

Maybe I just suck, but I've noticed I struggle against:

1) Foxes that are super fast and they do a lot of aggro spacing. They'll do lots of DDing close to you, so you always feel threatened and can't laser. If you throw out an attack to counter their zoning, they turn it around and start their punishes on you.

2) Platform campers. Fox and Falcon on DL are super hard to hit when they camp platforms imo. If you try poking them, they'll just move away. If you try baiting them, they find openings to get below you, etc. and punish you.

3) Grounded Sheiks. These guys stay on the ground a lot, sometimes WDing OoS or sometimes dash attacking just outside of your shine OoS range. Once they land a grab or get you in the air, you get punished for like 80%. It's also hard dealing with their shields, because they can do an aerial OoS if you're not perfect.

4) Aerial spam. Usually it's with Falcon or Doc. They'll throw out so many spaced aerials that it's hard to counter with bair or up-tilt. You can't laser either. They'll just keep on pressuring you until they land their combos and their crossups and stuff make it hard to get a hit in on them.

Anyone got answers for how to deal with these playstyles?

 

[FE_Hector]

1) Just because Falco's DD isn't that good, it still exists. DD and WD for good positioning, then punish anything and everything that you can. You should be able to keep combos going for a while once you win the neutral once, so make sure to do your best off of it. SH AC bair is also a pretty good option for countering zoning just due to the nature of ACing aerials. Also, while his DD range is good, it's not godlike, so if you notice a pattern in how he avoids you, a well-placed SHFFL nair should catch him pretty often.

2) On stages with lower plats, you can actually utilt through the side platforms. If that's not an option, full jump bair ought to connect, and you're fairly safe even if they don't. If they really like platform camping that much, laser them. It's very little %, but most people get worried even taking that small amount.

3) A lot like against Fox, you've got to make sure you can maximize damage off of every opening you have. Laser jab grab works pretty well in this MU, and remember that your own WD OoS can be used for some massive punishes. She doesn't have that good of a pressure game, so you can probably Shine OoS without much trouble.

4) Retreating SHL can take out a lot of their options, so just move out of the way. Again, DD and WD to position yourself so they miss. IDK about Doc too much, but punishing Falcon shouldn't be too difficult.

I'm still a scrub myself, so my advice may be off, but I'm fairly sure that that stuff will at least help you.

 

[MewtwoForce]

Sounds like you've seen your fair share of different play styles. So from that i'm guessing you've been to tournaments. So, where are the tournament videos? It will be much easier to see what you're doing if you post some video footage of your tournaments. If you have trouble finding videos, just list the tournaments of this year that you've attended and i'll see if it was streamed anywhere and saved on the channel.

I'm just going to touch down on spacies. With fox and spacies in general my experience with them is most spacie players do not have fluent tech skill with their character and the punish game on their spacie is very weak. If the punish game seems any good it will usually be because of a bad escape game or bad DI from the opponent. The usual spacie player will be all flashy and barely follow up after the initial hit and probably have some big gaping hole in their game you can exploit. So I wouldn't even really focus on defeating what they're doing. Focus on what they're not doing.

Look into the common errors a spacie can make when trying to attack a shield. Like an aerial that is placed too high on the shield or thrown out from so far away that its easy to react to. With falco, this is a free shine out of shield for you and that can be converted into a disgusting combo punish on the other spacie. Against the mid level spacies focus on getting big opening hits that lead into combos from defensive punishes on their tech skill whiffs.

Bad spacie techskill usually means the player is still at a stage where some of their mental energy and focus has to be used on doing anything important with their spacie. So look for tunnel vision caused by their mental commitment to tech making it harder to think on the spot and occasional autopiloting because they sometimes lose focus of their techskill. Very easy to punish.

A flashy fox is not a scary fox. A good fox is a scary fox.

So to recap and put in some extra tips

1. Use the 20XX hackpack. Put the falco/fox spacie pressure on. Have them attack your shield. Space yourself so they whiff. Use your shine out of shield. That whiffed shield pressure will be better than most players you'll ever fight. Then its just a matter of breaking down how you're going to follow up off that shine. Explore other options that can punish aerial pressure on your shield.

Talk to us about your training. What are you doing to try and get good at the game right now? That method is deciding how fast you improve and possibly how good you'll become. So if you're wasting your time on a weak training method now is a good time to explore that topic and make the necessary upgrades to your training that you need.

2. Movement speed increases the punish game because moving faster gives you an easier time chasing DI to keep putting on additional hits and improves almost all areas of gameplay. If movement training is not a priority right now then you need to make room for this. Look up the fastest movement options and begin practicing with your movement . http://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-ground-movement-analysis-turbo-edition.392367/ gives you an idea of ground movement speed rankings with falco.

Any person who I know who did this improved their combo game.

3. Dashdance- Fact. Most players have not evolved their dash dance game enough. Get into the lab and get your dashdance really good and make room to practice. That will give you more confidence in forcing the opponent to wiff even if they're close. PPMD has some really good thoughts on dashdance in his falco discussion thread. Check that out.

4. Defensive punishes on bad techskill is imo the way to go to beat average spacie players. Its my opinion but I feel this is pretty dead on. If you can feel out whats happening you can also catch them on tilt and start aggroing them with falco. If your tech skill is spot on you're just going to roll right over them.

Because of this I would say you probably don't have good techskill. You're mentioning having trouble with falcon even though we don't have many notable trained up falcons with decent tech skill period. Your falco should be able to just steam roll most falcons you play if your techskill is on point.

5. If your techskill is bad then yes there is no advice that can be given except to get all the techskill that matters learned and trained up to where you can do it without thinking. The techskill is the foundation of doing almost anything in this game. Without the techskill to execute, any advice you get on this game will be rendered useless because the techskill executes that advice.

So if you haven't yet, your training should mostly include just learning to be comfortable with all the important techskill in the game. Not TAS stuff but you get the picture.

 

[FE_Hector]

Adding on to what @ MewtwoForce said, I was playing a good bit of Falco at a smash fest yesterday. At one point, I started DDing to beat out my opponents spacing options, and they literally just stood there. The look on their face was something to the effect of "since when does Falco have a dash dance?" People have mentioned this a little bit before, but SHL is not your only tool to win the neutral with. That's part of achieving braindead lasers. If you evolve your DD game to force people to approach you, you have some extremely fast and powerful attacks and SICK combo potential. The point that most people have underdeveloped DD games is the most obvious when you compare PPMDs Marth to anybody else. DD close to a Fox to bait out an attack before dashing away and starting combos with pivot grabs. That's a heavy portion of how he beat Armada. Fighting Leffen (also at Apex), he DDd circles around Leffen. This man is ahead of the curve, so when he starts attending more tourneys (probably by the end of this year), watch for how he's comboing, winning neutral, and in general kicking butt.

 

[orvs]

Maybe I just suck, but I've noticed I struggle against:

1) Foxes that are super fast and they do a lot of aggro spacing. They'll do lots of DDing close to you, so you always feel threatened and can't laser. If you throw out an attack to counter their zoning, they turn it around and start their punishes on you.

2) Platform campers. Fox and Falcon on DL are super hard to hit when they camp platforms imo. If you try poking them, they'll just move away. If you try baiting them, they find openings to get below you, etc. and punish you.

3) Grounded Sheiks. These guys stay on the ground a lot, sometimes WDing OoS or sometimes dash attacking just outside of your shine OoS range. Once they land a grab or get you in the air, you get punished for like 80%. It's also hard dealing with their shields, because they can do an aerial OoS if you're not perfect.

4) Aerial spam. Usually it's with Falcon or Doc. They'll throw out so many spaced aerials that it's hard to counter with bair or up-tilt. You can't laser either. They'll just keep on pressuring you until they land their combos and their crossups and stuff make it hard to get a hit in on them.

Anyone got answers for how to deal with these playstyles?

1. if you feel like you cant laser, move. and when they catch on and realize that you like to move, thats when you mix it up with attacks, rolls, etc. They are dash dancing to make you feel like you cant do certain things and make it easier to react to something you do. you have to do something that is hard for them to react to, or something they aren't expecting.

2. when fighting characters that are a lot faster than falco on a large stage, if they are running around on the side platforms a lot, take center stage, and try to cut off any route they have to the stage. if they go on top platform, you can reposition yourself, or laser/dash dance patiently under a side platform until they decide to do something. if they have the lead and decide to camp up there, well.. youre gonna have to go up there. there are a few ways you can do it but ill leave that to you to figure out.

3. dont full jump too much against shiek, its too easy for her to reposition/intercept you. if they are shielding a lot, be patient and pressure them with lasers. they cant shield forever. Falco has counters for her out of shield options as well, its up to you to figure out how you want to punish them. you can also mix up grabs, shine grabs, laser grabs against really shield-happy shieks if you get in on her.

4. same as 1, if you can't laser, move and try to mix em up.

 

[dahuterschuter]

I'd imagine best response to platform camping is using some of the laser patterns to just pelt them until they leave the platform.

 

[NGUY (guitarstage)]

laser camp up tilts and nairs is all you need

 

[TeeJay308]

1. if you feel like you cant laser, move. and when they catch on and realize that you like to move, thats when you mix it up with attacks, rolls, etc. They are dash dancing to make you feel like you cant do certain things and make it easier to react to something you do. you have to do something that is hard for them to react to, or something they aren't expecting.

2. when fighting characters that are a lot faster than falco on a large stage, if they are running around on the side platforms a lot, take center stage, and try to cut off any route they have to the stage. if they go on top platform, you can reposition yourself, or laser/dash dance patiently under a side platform until they decide to do something. if they have the lead and decide to camp up there, well.. youre gonna have to go up there. there are a few ways you can do it but ill leave that to you to figure out.

3. dont full jump too much against shiek, its too easy for her to reposition/intercept you. if they are shielding a lot, be patient and pressure them with lasers. they cant shield forever. Falco has counters for her out of shield options as well, its up to you to figure out how you want to punish them. you can also mix up grabs, shine grabs, laser grabs against really shield-happy shieks if you get in on her.

4. same as 1, if you can't laser, move and try to mix em up.

Very helpful and practical advice. OP should definitely read this.

I don't necessarily agree with MewtwoForce, for the simple fact that this playstyle will not help you against good space animals and you will get destroyed for being too passive. You shouldn't base your game around trying to punish people who are bad, rather play them like you would a good player. Obviously frame perfect shine OoS will work on any player but in my opinion you should try to win the battle on your own merit. What I'm saying is create your own opportunities instead of waiting for your opponent to just hand them to you.

 

[FE_Hector]

One important thing is Mang0's philosophy on the Falco-Fox MU. He basically said that if Falco approaches, he's losing the MU. I feel like avoiding blind approaches and figuring out how they react to baits is probably the way to go.

 

[NJzFinest]

Maybe I just suck, but I've noticed I struggle against:

1) Foxes that are super fast and they do a lot of aggro spacing. They'll do lots of DDing close to you, so you always feel threatened and can't laser. If you throw out an attack to counter their zoning, they turn it around and start their punishes on you.

Auto canceled Bairs and uptilts are the basic go-tos. Retreating Dair, shield pivot SHLs, and CC shines need to be abused more. Retreating Dair beats all of Fox's run-in approaches besides the super rare "dash shine turnaround Bair".

2) Platform campers. Fox and Falcon on DL are super hard to hit when they camp platforms imo. If you try poking them, they'll just move away. If you try baiting them, they find openings to get below you, etc. and punish you.

Run under them and laser them as they jump up again. You can also read their aerial approaches to stop them as they attempt to move on the platform.

3) Grounded Sheiks. These guys stay on the ground a lot, sometimes WDing OoS or sometimes dash attacking just outside of your shine OoS range. Once they land a grab or get you in the air, you get punished for like 80%. It's also hard dealing with their shields, because they can do an aerial OoS if you're not perfect.

Good lasering, as in, where you shoot your lasers and what you do after the laser cancel. Sheiks will be looking to WD in after laser hitstun or aerial over them. Many Falcos blindly SHL forward into them but a good way to ruin a Sheik's momentum is to shield stop laser. Tilts (forward and up) and Bairs are very good when playing footsies with grounded Sheiks.

4) Aerial spam. Usually it's with Falcon or Doc. They'll throw out so many spaced aerials that it's hard to counter with bair or up-tilt. You can't laser either. They'll just keep on pressuring you until they land their combos and their crossups and stuff make it hard to get a hit in on them.

Falco's Bair and Uptilt hard counter all of Falcon's/Doc's moves. Space/time them appropriately since you can literally wall them out. Also Falcon/Doc are very weak to CC Shine. Let them hit you.

 

[TeeJay308]

One important thing is Mang0's philosophy on the Falco-Fox MU. He basically said that if Falco approaches, he's losing the MU. I feel like avoiding blind approaches and figuring out how they react to baits is probably the way to go.

Baiting is definitely the way to go with Falco in general. Falco can force reactions out of players, and punishing them hard for these reactions is what will make a Falco scary. And once you have your opponent scared, you can pressure them to death.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

1) Foxes that are super fast and they do a lot of aggro spacing. They'll do lots of DDing close to you, so you always feel threatened and can't laser. If you throw out an attack to counter their zoning, they turn it around and start their punishes on you.

WD OoS or don't shield if they don't jump. You can CC nair to forever, utilt or usmash them out of most aerial approaches (and the latter beats jab). Walk forward confidently. Alternatively, do AC bairs (preferably retreating) or dash dance back.

2) Platform campers. Fox and Falcon on DL are super hard to hit when they camp platforms imo. If you try poking them, they'll just move away. If you try baiting them, they find openings to get below you, etc. and punish you.

Don't stand directly underneath, or try to minimize this time so that they can't approach you easily. Do driveby aerials (should be horizontally moving away from them after the move would hit, and should horizontally displace you significantly) or laser from a platform at the same/one height lower. Vs falcon in particular, crouch under the platform and he has no good approach vs you.

3) Grounded Sheiks. These guys stay on the ground a lot, sometimes WDing OoS or sometimes dash attacking just outside of your shine OoS range. Once they land a grab or get you in the air, you get punished for like 80%. It's also hard dealing with their shields, because they can do an aerial OoS if you're not perfect.

Grab them. Don't go super far with aerials if you aren't crossing them up (in the event they don't shield, this can mean comboing into shine or utilt). Threaten with position, not necessarily hitboxes. Jump forward waveland back is also a thing. If it's out of range for shine oos, shield grab, usmash oos, or just shield DI in. Also you can CC just about everything at lower and mid percents.

4) Aerial spam. Usually it's with Falcon or Doc. They'll throw out so many spaced aerials that it's hard to counter with bair or up-tilt. You can't laser either. They'll just keep on pressuring you until they land their combos and their crossups and stuff make it hard to get a hit in on them.

Utilt bair and usmash beat their aerials, just have to time it well. Shield DI in -> grab or shine OoS is also good. CC beats all of Falcon's aerials you can't just react to the startup of. If they're doing retreating aerials, it's harder to punish oos or with CC, but you can also just laser if they weren't already in range to hit you, or ftilt (moreso at later percents) or even fsmash/usmash. Walk forward usmash is actually quite good if the opponent continuously does SH aerials. If it's fullhop, utilt and bair are better, but you can also move out of the way entirely that much easier.

General tip, vs people acting after lasers, don't telegraph your approach with the laser. Either forgo it, or wait/dashdance.
Dair people who are on the ground to deal with CC. Nair people in the air to deal with those in the air. That is if we're talking about approaching.