• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Another Fast Faller Matchup Thread

EZえん

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 4, 2015
Messages
116
Location
Florida
Hey guys, my tag is Faxx (I've had a bunch of tags so I highly doubt you've heard of me, but this is my newest), and I've been a yoshi main for a good amount of time. I've always liked link though, so I've always followed him a little and for some reason my link is barely worse than my yoshi. Anyway, my biggest problem with yoshi is fighting people who play passive, but I never seem to have this issue with link (probably due to range and playstyle) so I'm picking up link more seriously now. I grasp the general playstyle of him, but I struggle against matchups such as fox, falco, sheik, falcon. Does anyone have any advice for these matchups as far as combos, things not to do in the neutral, edgeguards, etc.
Much appreciated in advance :3
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
776
Location
sweden
Basic comboing with Link revolves around landing as many uairs as possible. To start of any combo you want to launch your opponent into the air so you can either tech chase them on platforms or just juggle them with uairs. Your main launcher is your dsmash. If you can land a grab that's a better start for a combo, but keep in mind that grabbing is risky and shouldn't be done carefree. You can't go straight from neutral game to make a dsmash though. Make sure you pressure your opponent with projectiles, jabs, nairs, bairs and fairs until you either wear down their shield so that you can get a shield poke or some other opening.

You can also start your combos out of bairs and nairs, this is a bit more tricky as it requires you to have greater understanding of where the opponent will go after the hit, you can't react to their DI. From an autocanceled SH bair or FJ nair you can make a turn around dsmash. From a FJ nair you can also go over to a uair straight after hitting with your nair(same timing as double nair).

You can also make counter aerial starts of your comboes with utilt. I find this especially useful for when I think my opponent will do an aerial OoS.

Don't forget that you both have a weak hit and a strong hit of your uair. The strong hit is the initial draw, while the weak hit is the lasting hitbox that is there for the remainding frames. Exploiting the weak hit is the difference between being able to combo into a finisher or not.
 

EZえん

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 4, 2015
Messages
116
Location
Florida
So I assume you want to strong uair at low %s and weak uair at high %s unless you're going for a kill, but on fast fallers uair probably isnt really your kill move anyway. Are projectiles less effective against fast fallers or do I just need to use them differently. Also whats my best options if a falcon or sheik try to tech chase me. If a spacy tries to recover high, what are my best edgeguard options, and if they recover low is it safer to just drop down and clip them with up b while i go to ledge or should i just cover from the ledge?
 

EZえん

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 4, 2015
Messages
116
Location
Florida
Another general question I have, is what are my best ledge options (recovering). I tend to use Fair too much, but when they catch on to that I'm sure it will get punished.
 

Thor

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
2,009
Location
UIUC [school year]. MN [summer]
And 1 more, is Dtilt just a bad Dsmash?
First of all, edit your posts please <_<

Dtilt has a meteor smash, meaning if you can space it, you can shock and style on people with it [it's not actually practical on anyone besides maybe Falcon and Ganondorf though]. Onstage it's amazing because it has reduced knockback compared to dsmash or non-meteor dtilt [since it's launching them off the ground - it's a game mechanic thing] and this makes it way better for getting a dair [at that ~120% range if I'm not mistaken], since it also has longer hitstun [I can go into technical details, but again, it's how meteor smashes on grounded people work - kinda like how Falcon's stomp sometimes leaves enough time for a knee even after a missed L-cancel].

Dtilt is also safer on shield than dsmash [I believe dsmash is -25/-14 on shield, while dtilt is always -11 - from the frame data thread]. This is primarily due to less endlag, which is also why dtilt is better for setting up that dair.

However, dsmash is faster [by 5 frames, which means dsmash is about 50% faster], so dtilt is much, MUCH easier to land, especially out of a crouch cancel.

I use dtilt during shield pressure strings sometimes, and also on a hard read or when I think I see an opportunity [perhaps I just landed a bomb or something]. If you treat dtilt as just a bad dsmash, you'll be...fine... but you'll miss out on some edgeguarding stuff [dtilt -> fair is great if you miss the meteor, and if you hit the meteor on most characters you can at least jab to then hit them away and then do whatever] and you probably won't get dsmash dair often, so you'll have to dsmash uair or dsmash nair/maybe fair and edgeguard more.

Another general question I have, is what are my best ledge options (recovering). I tend to use Fair too much, but when they catch on to that I'm sure it will get punished.
Fair, nair, uair, dair from the ledge are all possible/good [even bair from the ledge has its uses], and you should be able to do each of them. Uair is awesome for covering Falcon recovering just above you, hitting a spacie side+b when they're going above you and you're on the ledge, or if you think you've read someone coming from directly above [this is risky], dair is also good vs Falcon and is good for hitting Sheik when she uses Vanish onstage. Don't dair onstage as a ledge option if they're edgeguarding you please.

However, you can't only attack onstage. Link has an invincible ledgedash of 9 frames [less than the best, but none too shabby] and a true haxdash [fully invincible but requires frame perfection] which is useful for getting hookshot back. I also tend to think Link's roll provides an acceptable mixup, and I love both Link's under and over 100% getup attacks [the over 100% one reachs extremely far (though I don't think far enough to poke Marth charging fsmash)]. The important thing is to mix it up, BUT I'd say your options are:
- Invincible ledgedash [haxdash before to bait out something if you can]
- Invincible aerial onstage
- Aerial onstage/empty double jump onstage [aerials onstage should be invincible on startup most of the time, but if you see your opponent do something leaving them in lag, you can just punish right away]
- Ledgedash [you should try to be invincible, but if you're not constantly planking you'll be predictable, and there's also the fact that if you start planking and only do ledgedash out of planks they'll know... so mixups are important... frankly I'd try implementing always planking or plank into different options, but ledgedash is good even if you aren't invincible all the way, since it leaves you with your jump]
- Over 100% getup attack [under is less good but ok]
- Roll
- Neutral getup
-Ledgehop [aka tournament winner]

Note that from ledgedashs you should often [but not always] do some action afterwards, like jab, dsmash, spin attack [ledge dash invincible-startup spin attack is possible] [this one is risky don't actually do it], grab, nair, or even a roll to center stage or a spotdodge [don't do these too much]. These options are sort of arranged in order of descending usefulness [so I think invincible ledgedash is generally best], but mixups are important - if you always ledgedash, then that invincible fair can take them by surprise.

I'll let Lootic answer other stuff or answer it later, since this isn't exactly a small amount of stuff for you to read in one post.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
776
Location
sweden
Projectiles are less effective against spacies, against fox and CF they are pretty bad, against falco you need a lot of practice to first get around lazorz to be able to use them effectively. It is simply cause they can apply pressure at any given occasion and oftenwise you are better of trying to fight with your ranged, disjointed hitboxes and stupid everlasting nair*.

If a spacie recovers high you should force him to go low with your rang, throw it at him until he is under the ledge. From there you can just jump out at him and nair or go for a fancy sniper arrow.

Dtilt isnt even the same type of move, it doesnt even overlap in it's usages with dsmash in my playstyle, it is a niche move that can be used for edgeguarding and for kill setups. This thanks to it being a really strong comboer and that it has a hitbox that hits really low. Against CF you can dtilt his sweetspotted(or at least very close to sweetspotted) UpB and then nair him out again. Against spacies you can dtilt pretty much all their UpB angles that are from below and then dair them or nair them.

Although I agree with Thor on most of what he mentions as good ledge options(great post! :)), I still do recommend against rolls, attack getup and neutral getup from the ledge for Link. His aerials and ledgedash are simply too good and all the other options simply are worse IMO. Tournament winner is nice for some matchups like ICs where being grabbed is far more dangerous than being hit by an aerial. You need at least ledgestall, edgehopping and ledgedashing in your toolbox to be effective from the ledge. Link is strong from the ledge if you know what to do.

When doing a edgehop aerial you need to be able to watch your opponent when you get up from your ledge as you should select the correct aerial for the situation.
- If they CC you should dair them
- If they are close, do a crossover nair
- If they are far, do a spaced fair
- If they are jumping a lot(like a falco trying to find a dair) you want to time a uair.

Ledgedashing is your defensive option for getting back onto the stage. It has the added benefit of giving you a tech roll even if they do hit you. You don't have many options out of a ledgedash though as you don't have any quick moves that doesn't lag a lot. You basically just can jab or shield(and from there roll in towards the stage). Make sure you fight that itching feeling to make a empty grab when ledgedashing, sure it can reward you plenty, but the risk is extreme and simply not worth it.

Ledgestalling is only done for one reason and it is to make your opponent ask "When?". When will you attack? Thus it is important that you mixup the time you spend on the ledge by mixing up the number of times you regain your invincibility frames, sometimes you should attack directly, sometimes you should give your opponent the impression that you'll never leave the ledge, and then there are all the timings in between staying forever and not staying.

Mindgames excluded lol, as they can mindgame you if they know this pattern. In that case, mindgame them back, but don't pick a bad option as a mindgame. A mindgame is picking a good option your opponent didn't expect.

That said, if you find something useful in some other situations or in some way that conflicts with what I say, then by all means use it. If it works it works.

* Nair should be called Peter Pan, cause you basically fly around with it and it never goes old
 
Top Bottom