Analyzing the Little Mac video (Aerial momentum returns from Melee)

[Chiroz]

So, I am making this thread to invite everyone to see what mechanics or physics properties they can deduce from the Little Mac video.


I will share my own findings in this post:

1. Short hopping is definitely back (not like anyone thought it was going anywhere).

2. Super armor is back (confirmed in previous videos)

3. Overall gravity/floatiness seems to be closer to Melee than Brawl.

For specifics on this one just look at Little Mac everytime he is in the air. He falls much faster than most of the Brawl cast. Now this could mean that Little Mac is just a fast faller, like the Space Animals are, but you can also see clips like when he attacks Wii Fit Trainer, she is also falling a relatively similar speed as Little Mac is. (and she doesn't feel like a fast faller). You can also look at the launch angles of the players that are hit. They seem to be much more parabolical than Brawls diagonally up launch pattern (implying there is a heavier gravity).

4. It is clear that aerial movement is the same as Melees (thankfully).

What I mean is, momentum from a dash is retained when you jump into the air like it was in Melee (instead of characters having a dash speed and a separate air speed like in Brawl).

If you want a clear indication, look at when Little Mac charges in toward Megaman, he dashes, then short hops (also confirmed if it wasn't already) into an aerial dodge and then hits Megaman. (all while retaining the same speed, instead of vastly slowing down, like Sonic when he jumps in Brawl).



What are your findings from this video?

 

[Substitution]

Short hopping's back? Good.
I need that for my mains.

 

[mr.boombastic]

good assessment i noticed the exact same things in the trailer

and as the coach hinted during the trailer i looks like little mac might not have good aerials

 

[The Real Gamer]

If you want a clear indication, look at when Little Mac charges in toward Megaman, he dashes, then short hops (also confirmed if it wasn't already) into an aerial dodge and then hits Megaman. (all while retaining the same speed, instead of vastly slowing down, like Sonic when he jumps in Brawl).

That's actually some sort of wind up move as opposed to an air dodge. You can see him winding up his left arm as soon as he leaves the ground.

But I agree with everything else said. Mac's playstyle in particular looks much faster than anything we've seen in Brawl.

 

[Kef]

I also noted that. I think he is short-hopping and inputting what I think is his side-b (same move he used at the very beginning of the gameplay portion of his trailer).

 

[mimgrim]

You forgot the most important thing.

Sandbag.

 

[Pikabunz]

Yeah, it didn't look like there was an air dodge after the shorthop.

 

[Chiroz]

Yeah, it didn't look like there was an air dodge after the shorthop.

Didn't he go through Megaman's smash attack?

 

[Kef]

Didn't he go through Megaman's smash attack?

The special move probably has properties that make Mac avoid projectiles.

 

[Chiroz]

I just looked at the video again and he does seem to execute the move before the Smash hits him.

I also noticed he has a sparkle effect when he jumps. The kind that only appears when you tech, dodge or execute a smash attack. He also flashes white when he gets the sparkle effect, anyone know what that might actually be? Is it his foward smash??

 

[Moon Monkey]

Didn't he go through Megaman's smash attack?

He goes through Mario fireballs too. I think he might be able to evade projectiles while dashing.

He seems like he is going to be a hard counter to projectile characters.

 

[Kef]

I don't think the dash itself is projectile-invulnerable, it's just that the animation reduces Little Mac's hurtbox by a lot. It's kind of a better Marth dash.

 

[The Real Gamer]

He seems like he is going to be a hard counter to projectile characters.

He seems like a nightmare for Megaman in particular (take note how fast he closes the gap on him after dodging his forward smash).

Just found a gif of it.

But on the flip side he's probably going to struggle with characters that are able to out-range him or keep him in the air/offstage.

 

[Kef]

Looking at the gif, I don't think he's even short-hopping, that's just the regular arc of the move.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yeah it seems like the arc of the move , but it seems to retain dashing momentum. When you look at from when he first entered the boxing ring he jumped and did the move and it had very little momentum vs when he does it strait out of a dash.

God I hope aerial momentum returns.

 

[Dropkick JD]

...I know it's irrelevant, BUT DAT PUNCH THOUGH.

That whole trailer, as a fan of just straight hand to hand fighting made me giddy. That part especially. He didn't even give a **** about the blast, he just leaped and smacked the hell out of MM. DAMN.

But related to the topic, I do hope aerial momentum returns, but I do think the OP misunderstood at first. Think it's all resolved now..

But still, dat punch though.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

That combo on Link was fly as hell.

I've always wanted a character in Smash to have Shinryuken. I'm so glad to have Mac in. He's fast, flashy and hand to hand combat oriented. I'm so hyped.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I finally have my Falco counter.

Your days are numbered you laser-spamming little ****. This is for every Brawl and P:M match you locked my Ike down with your stupid blue lines of camp.

The day Smash 4 comes out I'll be spending 6 hours in the lab developing anti-Falco combos and tech. His feathered behind is going DOWN.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

I think Marth has a rival when it comes to range and gap closing! I better watch my **** around Mac.

 

[Commander]

I finally have my Falco counter.

Your days are numbered you laser-spamming little ****. This is for every Brawl and P:M match you locked my Ike down with your stupid blue lines of camp.

The day Smash 4 comes out I'll be spending 6 hours in the lab developing anti-Falco combos and tech. His feathered behind is going DOWN.

Falco can shoot his lasers low if timed right.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Side B.

Mac's low dash animation is a nice trick, but it's not ducking under all kinds of projectiles by itself. Even Mario just needed to jump to hit Mac.

 

[Commander]

Falco jumps and shoots you in your stupid face. Why don't you just counter the lasers like everyone else? That will be the only thing Mac offer's you and I have no doubt Marth does it better.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Falco jumps and shoots you in your stupid face. Why don't you just counter the lasers like everyone else? That will be the only thing Mac offer's you and I have no doubt Marth does it better.

You're starting to go from ill-informed to incoherent. Your first sentence seems unrelated to anything I've said, and you seem to be ignoring the super armor/innate flinch resistance Mac demonstrates in his trailer. The man went through Mega Man's side smash with nary a f*** given.

 

[extremechiton]

it may seem aerial momentum returns from melee, but little mac is a fast character with fast attacks, fast running speed, and just fast fast fast fast.
he may seem like he's performing at melee speed but this is just one character.

we've seen how rosalina plays and she is floaty, light, and a little bit slow. same goes for villager. mega man seems decent at speed, and wii fit trainer definitly has something going for her.

but remember, sakurai said this game is between melee and brawl, looking a bit more toward melee. but just because one character is most melee like right now, doesnt mean the entire roster will play like that.

 

[Glaciacott]

Not sure if this is the right place, but based on Mac's OHKO of Mega Man and Bowser, they're getting rid of star KOs. Perhaps there really is a desire to maintain the fast pace within matches.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Not sure if this is the right place, but based on Mac's OHKO of Mega Man and Bowser, they're getting rid of star KOs. Perhaps there really is a desire to maintain the fast pace within matches.

That ...

Is huge, actually. There's quite a few characters that rely on star KO breathing room for certain things, like Samus and DK's Neutral B's, or Snake's mine placements and tranquilizer in P:M. Maybe I'll cross my fingers for a respawn invincibility nerf, too. No waiting, no assistance, just slug slug slug.

 

[Chiroz]

it may seem aerial momentum returns from melee, but little mac is a fast character with fast attacks, fast running speed, and just fast fast fast fast.
he may seem like he's performing at melee speed but this is just one character.

we've seen how rosalina plays and she is floaty, light, and a little bit slow. same goes for villager. mega man seems decent at speed, and wii fit trainer definitly has something going for her.

but remember, sakurai said this game is between melee and brawl, looking a bit more toward melee. but just because one character is most melee like right now, doesnt mean the entire roster will play like that.

But aerial momentum doesn't have to do with speed. Brawl didn't retain aerial momentum and just has a separate air speed for characters. Characters like Jigglypuff in Brawl actually moved faster in the air than on the ground. (Or so it had me believe).

Aerial momentum can be retained wether you are fast or slow and overall, most characters benefit from it.

Not having aerial momentum killed many of the options for approaching in Brawl. It made approaching with SHFFLs much, much slower and much more predictable and as such made it so risky most of the times it wasn't worth it.

Aerial momentum was what made Falcon good (and fun) allowing him to approach at high speeds with his great aerials, or just plainly SHFF into a grab.

Aerial Momentum does make the game much faster and does open up much more options for approaches, both of which we desperately need. It is something either all characters have or none has it.

It has been pointed out though that what we see in the video is not actually a jump, but an animation of an attack that "jumps" that huge distance (like Wolf's foward air). I am still skeptical wether that is just one attack, or wether Little Mac short hopped, but because I am unsure which one it is, I must retract my "discovery" of aerial momentum making a return.

We could try and search for it in all the previous videos and see if it is retained, but I am too tired right now.



PS: If you want to understand aerial momentum better just try this. Pick Falcon on both Melee and Brawl. Dash foward on both versions, once you are at dash speed jump and release the control. In Brawl you will jump upwards with little and maybe even no X movement whatsoever. If you keep pressing foward in Brawl after jumping Falcon will still jump upwards but he will gain a foward momentum and move at a new speed foward (not his dash speed).

Now in Melee, if you jump and release the control after jumping Falcon will shoot foward at dash speed (which is incredibly fast) maybe even fall off FD. This was a better simulation of real physics as a jump should retain the same horizontal velocity until landing. (Although you can also slow down your movement or even jump backwards in Melee by using the control stick while jumping)


You can then pick Mario, who is a relatively average character in terms of run speed (or pick someone slower like Link) and do the same experiment and you will notice how in Brawl they jump upwards (even while dashing) while in Melee if you are dashing you jump forward, even with slow characters.

 

[Morbi]

Not sure if this is the right place, but based on Mac's OHKO of Mega Man and Bowser, they're getting rid of star KOs. Perhaps there really is a desire to maintain the fast pace within matches.

I didn't actually realize that from the trailer, that is great news though. I am tired of getting a star KO with 5 seconds on the clock...

You're starting to go from ill-informed to incoherent. Your first sentence seems unrelated to anything I've said, and you seem to be ignoring the super armor/innate flinch resistance Mac demonstrates in his trailer. The man went through Mega Man's side smash with nary a f*** given.

His super armor was looking great, I can't really think of another character that demonstrates such overt super armor. I am going to use him (Mac) against most zoners, personally.

 

[Pikabunz]

Star KO's might still be in. Anything we've seen in these videos can change in the final build.

 

[EddyBearr]

It looks like hitstun is melee-esque in the video to me. Anyone else getting this perception?

 

[guedes the brawler]

I finally have my Falco counter.

Your days are numbered you laser-spamming little ****. This is for every Brawl and P:M match you locked my Ike down with your stupid blue lines of camp.

The day Smash 4 comes out I'll be spending 6 hours in the lab developing anti-Falco combos and tech. His feathered behind is going DOWN.

and then we discover Falco has an infinite chaingrab on Mac...

 

[Chiroz]

It looks like hitstun is melee-esque in the video to me. Anyone else getting this perception?

That is something we can't actually tell until we play the game since Brawl also had decent amounts of hitstun but there was a mechanic (the most ridiculously ******** mechanic) that allowed you to cancel any hitstun at frame 13 which basically made hitstun itself non-existent replacing it with a 13 second "lag" window after you were hit.

So Brawl would also look like it had Melee hitstun (because in fact, it did), only that mechanic basically made hitstun not matter.

Until we can actually test the game ourselves and confirm that mechanic is gone, there is no telling wether it won't be as ******** as it was in Brawl.

 

[EddyBearr]

That is something we can't actually tell until we play the game since Brawl also had decent amounts of hitstun but there was a mechanic (the most ridiculously ******** mechanic) that allowed you to cancel any hitstun at frame 13 which basically made hitstun itself non-existent replacing it with a 13 second "lag" window after you were hit.

So Brawl would also look like it had Melee hitstun (because in fact, it did), only that mechanic basically made hitstun not matter.

Until we can actually test the game ourselves and confirm that mechanic is gone, there is no telling wether it won't be as ******** as it was in Brawl.

I see. I don't play Brawl, so I wouldn't have known that.

We can tell the hitstun is there, but what we can't tell is if it matters. At least we're halfway there: the hitstun is there. (at least, I'm seeing it.)

 

[dimensionsword64]

Just found a gif of it.

His legs are so awkward when he's punching Mega Man. I cannot unsee it now.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Man. Mac winds ALL THE WAY BACK. He's gonna pull something, haha.

 

[SlickWylde]

I don't think Little Mac's up punch means there are no star KO's. Maybe if you hit them hard enough it does the blast, but you still have a chance for Star KO to happen. For example, Smashpedia brings up something from Brawl:

"In Super Smash Bros., members of a team (such as the Fighting Polygon Team) do get Star Ko'd. In Melee, members of a computer team (such as theFighting Wire Frames) don't experience Star KOs, instead undergoing the usual colorful explosion (However, in Event Match 37, they can get Star KO'd). Also, in the beginning of the second trailer for Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Kirby uses his up smash to knock Mario and Link off the top of the screen, but the usual colored explosion occurs, instead of a Star KO. The Star KO is still in this game."