That bair, blaster, and grab/dthrow are ****? ;D
But that's actually a good method. Hooray for math people ;D Can you whip up Sago's offensive stats too? I want to hold off on analysis until there's something to compare with. Also, if you want to be awesome, label what's a punish, what's a follow-up, etc :3 Must say, I'm surprised at how no uairs were landed, I find uair to be pretty good at beating out MK's dair and keeping him airborne. Maybe if we have the MU played between different people we can also compare differences and see what each is doing better than the other?
I might as well go ahead and post my comments on the match, I'm working on a summary of main points so I'll post that later (apologies in advance if it's messy, not fully functional as of late
). Also, kinda going off of what JJ said, we should do sets ;D that way we get to see more about the MU on different stages and how the players adapt/learn the MU, etc etc.
[collapse=Comments: Kain vs Sago]0:24 - Good start to the match, FH laser anticipating that MK will try to get on the platform to aid his approach while still being relatively safe if MK decided to dash instead. DACUS followup right after in hopes of poking through the platform for some extra damage but the spacing was off by a bit. DACUS is usually really safe like that imo, when the opponent is on a platform they don't really have any legit way of punishing besides a trade, and if they shield it has the potential to knock them off of the platform which can be free damage depending on which way they slide off. Fair right afterwards was probably to intercept a dashgrab attempt, idk.
0:29 - GROUNDED SHUTTLE LOOP IS STUPID. That actually shuts down so many of our approaches, does anyone know of a good way around this besides super baiting and whatnot? Also, followed by a tornado right before landing, beating out Kain's defensive fair X___x Both of these are really good for MK in this matchup IMO. Like, really good. The only thing we have that beats both of these is a well-placed shine, but MK gets better risk/reward on a good read in that situation so fffffffffffff what works well against this, seriously.
0:45 - Not completely sure why Sago is trying to approach with grounded upBs, it's a lot less useful as an offensive tactic imo since Wolf can realistically punish a whiff and get good damage/setup off of it. Speaking of which, also not completely sure why Kain is jumping/ADing around either
When Sago goes in, Kain shields after a SHAD, which could probably be replaced with a shine for better results (beats both dashgrab and dashattack, wheras shield gets you grabbed and when you're that close to the ledge it could get messy… but the oh-so-popular dash>shield destroys shine so idk :x).
0:52 - Again. Baited the DACUS to punish MK's landing and tornado'd right before landing to beat it out :/ Kain had a good punish after getting out with dair though, as well as shielding right after since many MK's like to instinctively panic dsmash in unfamiliar situations. The retreating SH blaster beforehand (and shortly afterwards too) is good to keep MK at bay for a while though, common and useful tactic.
1:00 - Another AD landing that got punished :x good bair afterwards, but failed follow-up :< Tornado afterwards gets a shieldpoke from the top, when MK starts to hover above I sometimes try jumpshine OoS, it usually works well enough because of the jumpsquat animation. It even worked when I was in tornado once @_@ but yeah, I find that Wolf gets shieldpoked at the top a decent amount by tornado, so that might be a decent way to avoid it. Shine is a good punish when landing after Tornado though, especially because it goes through followup tornados. Jab afterwards didn’t reach :< we should all get used to dtilt after shine though, seriously. There are a lot of situations where the range on jab just doesn’t cut it, and dtilt trip is a free DACUS on some characters so… :o
1:07 – MK should’ve stayed onstage imo, Kain was too far away for Sago to pull off a gimp but staying onstage makes it easier to punish semiscars/whatever Wolf does from the ledge, and MK getting back from the ledge vs Wolf isn’t exactly risk-free. The shuttle loop recovery did a good job of safeguarding the ledge though. Good laser, failed DACUS :< dtilt to grab didn’t work out because Kain didn’t hide in shield (good call ;D) and a nice bair punish that MIGHT’VE maybe been able to combo into DACUS but Kain did the right thing by playing it safe.
1:15 – Idk why Kain’s always SHing when MK is on the ledge, am I the only one that feels like staying grounded is almost always better? :x Just wondering on this one. Good quick grab on the tornado read right before landing ;D Very very nice. And right afterwards, walking forwards to bait the SL into a shieldgrab since MK had no room, beautiful <3 got a bit greedy with pummels, but whoo dsmash (although MK’s beats ours out after a grounded GR, right?) :3 and an air release would = free DACUS/fsmash anyways
Kain, travel more.
1:23 – Unintentional platform cancel into a wonky dash attack? lol not completely sure what happened, but it worked out so yay ;D grab would’ve been better imo, but idk what’s exactly happening so yeah
whiffed dj fair afterwards = fair punish, risky since Kain is now almost offstage without his dj but good DI keeps him alive. AD into that nair X_x shine is usually better from that height imo, Seagull uses it well against MK in the air so he should know more about that. If MK decided to dair instead, Kain could be offstage and in some serious trouble :/
1:30 – Landing into that glide attack :< once again, I think shine would’ve been a better option, or an AD into the ground to make sure Kain got his dj back. But then again, I generally have a defensive mindset when I’m in a bad position, and that’s not usually too good against MK, so I dunno. Good b-reversal to avoid the uair, but stupid tornado catches and beats the bair :/ I’m tellin ya, MK’s tornado and grounded SL have some really good specific uses in this MU, and it’s a pain in the butt for me ;___; if anyone has good tips on getting around them, please share. Since he’s far enough from MK, ADing into the ground is a safer option and works out pretty well here.
1:40 – Nice roll > shieldgrab punish, and after sending MK offstage with a dthrow you bait the SL again ;D Gotta ask though, why isn’t MK teching dthrow at all? Teching away is usually pretty safe if Wolf decides to walk imo, just sayin’.
1:45 – Nice ;D seeing the early AD from the ledgehop and shoving a fsmash into MK’s face. Good laser to stop MK’s glide, and idk what the dsmash would’ve covered tbh :x Should’ve lasered again, works for me :3 laser actually stops a lot of MK’s options when trying to get back on stage from that height, since his airspeed is meh in all directions without tornado, and blaster beats tornado ;D MK’s best option imo is to AD after getting hit by a laser and try recovering a bit lower, idk what to do about that besides wait on stage
1:52 – dj fair, why? Especially since from that height there’s a lot of cooldown :x MK should’ve intercepted the bair with SL invincibility imo, but good spacing and punish on his slow whiffed punish ;D laser and bair to take the stock, very nice and very effective.
2:05 – Going offstage was interesting, maybe a tiiiny bit risky for my tastes, but it did a good job of wearing out MK’s invincibility. I do the same thing myself sometimes, but it usually doesn’t turn out as well as I’d like
nice shine to cover the landing, but not nice enough to stop MK’s uairs :< nice AD on the way down, since you and MK are both going the same direction instead of into eachother it’s safer and gives you more space once the invincibility wears off.
2:10 – lol MK does an aerial SL OoS instead of grounded, shame. Would’ve taken the stock for sure with a grounded reverse upB OoS. Nice bair punish, except at low %s there’s not enough knockback/hitstun to prevent a counterattack :< so maybe not the best move in that situation if Kain was looking to hold onto the stock. Shine or retreating aerial blaster are the only safe options I can think of though, and both are a bit lame, so… meh, idk, it’s a trade-off.
2:19 – SH shine that
not sure how you shined out of that so well, but nice ;D shine > jab 1&2 > bair > fsmash ftw, such a good sequence :3 good laser afterwards as usual, lasers work well when MK is trying to recover around stage-level as I said before and Kain makes pretty good use of it.
2:28 – Grab range :< Kain reacted well to the dthrow imo, DI away and AD into shield. Beats dashattack, but leaves you wide open for a dashgrab, which are MK’s two most common options in such situations :/ as I said before, shine beats both, but leaves you at huge risk to dash>shield. When you shield, it’s usually best to get ready for an usmash OoS punish to the dash attack since MK often ends up behind you, rendering shieldgrabs futile :x
2:32 – fairs are finally connecting ;D Sets up nicely, but the bair didn’t work out :< honestly I’d think uair is a better option because of the disjoint and also outranging MK’s dair. To avoid punishment on the second uair, Kain should’ve kept some forward momentum and moved away to a distance where MK couldn’t reach him imo. Sago did good here, most MKs aren’t so good at combating Wolf’s juggling :x
2:36 – SL > jab ;_; good shine to beat out the early tornado, but the jab was too slow :< great AD timing and recovery though (take note of how it’s just an AD and not a dj AD, smart move). Don’t know what prompted you to roll behind him but that was a great idea xD you might’ve been able to punish his glide with a DACUS at the end, or a sideB even
not bad though, you still got him to eat a laser. Failed to buffer the turnaround after the SHAD unfortunately :< another great reaction to MK’s dthrow though ;D at higher %s when you have the space, DI away > AD > quick attacks becomes a better option (as I said before, MK’s don’t usually dash>shield for some reason, at least from what I’ve seen
)
2:52 – Nice FH laser pressure, excellent spacing and timing on that bair > PSing MK’s upB OoS > clanking bair with glide attack, intense :o fair OoS missed, but why not usmash OoS? Kain’s reaction time was good enough, and that hits both sides, so maybe a better option? Good laser afterwards.
2:59 – I could’ve sworn grab had more cooldown lol, very very nice work though ;D and DACUS afterwards, even though he jumped into it. Fair instead of uair in hopes of a kill I’m assuming?
3:08 – Trying to shield the tornado and then punish for the kill instead of taking it out with a safe option I assume? So close yet so far, once again that final poke at the top :/ but I have a feeling Kain dropped his shield there, so, eh. Dtilt is nasty :x great range, disjoint, and also pretty good at shieldpoking. Pretty difficult to punish, a good way is to jump over it but then grounded SL is ;____;
3:15 – Nice grab beforehand, but that upB ;__; early AD to avoid the upB I assume? Early ADing is risky though, especially from that distance, because it gives MK a lot of room to punish the cooldown. Not sure about that second upB, but good bair landing ;D going for a fair again in hopes of scoring a kill it seems, works the second time once MK exposes his backside :3 ps Kain work on your platform cancelling xD
3:32 – DJAD shenanigans to wear out invincibility, pretty decent option if MK goes airborne to chase you. And yet another tornado right before landing :x kinda sucks since MK has the option to mix it up with a DJ aerial or tornado, and the former will jump over a blaster and leave MK with enough room to tornado blaster’s cooldown :/ Once again, a high-up AD landing you into MK’s nair after using your dj :x not that you had too many options though… nice AD to the ledge though, boo @ tornado eating up more or less anything Wolf does to get back from the ledge :x
3:45– Nice recovery + laser punish on that SL. Laser > DACUS in hopes that he’ll start running in it seems, but unfortunately Sago’s reaction time passed the test :< got to the ledge nicely but you were trapped once there… not too sure what would be a good option there :/
4:01 – Wow. Didn’t know that dtilt at 0% = next dtilt will trade with our jab :o and how did tornado shieldpoke that time ;_; when he started moving away, jumpshine OoS would’ve been a good punish imo. Good jab punish to his cooldown, resulting in a ftilt punish to jab’s cooldown lol
4:10 – Nice laser wall ;D Mixing up the dthrow DI this time since going offstage sucks, but Sago reacts to it well and gets a fair in. Good AD, and even though Kain got hit by the tornado he did a great job getting out of it and punishing ;D
4:23 – I can only assume FH nairs are for baiting X_x nice fair but I don’t see how that was any better than an empty SH :x good jabs but blaster from too close = good punish on Sago’s part.
4:29 – Very nice AD and fair. When MK baired Kain’s shield, he could’ve usmashed OoS for the punish, but good secondary punishing anyways ;D ftilt, interesting choice. Whiffed grab = nice and simple upB punish :/
4:38 – Another nice AD into an aerial, bair this time. Good bait with the SHs into a grab.
4:55 – Didn’t AC the fair :< interesting choice with DI on the dthrow, definitely faked Sago out. FH over ftilt > bair was pretty good.
5:03 – Nice ;D should’ve probably just dsmashed in case he went for a shield after the jab, but he went for an uair instead (interesting choice lol, definitely wasn’t going to reach…) so it turned out well ;D[/collapse]
) this idea from Nicole because it seems like a good idea to watch the Wolf's that are winning matchups at high levels of play. If they won a match, then they clearly did things right in that match. Their style/gameplay should probably be analyzed, critiqued, debunked, and helpful to other Wolf's at lower levels of play to improve their game. We will discuss one video on a weekly period (Unless we speed this up or something):
