The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
I've noticed Ness players have a very undeveloped edgeguard game. People tend to gravitate towards certain styles, but I am not seeing a ton of consistency with Ness edgeguards.
You have some Ness's that are afraid to approach the edge and spam projectiles (pkfire/flash/thunder), you have Eli who favors a low risk-low reward approach in most of his games, opting for a charged usmash over the edge, and others like myself tend to favor utilizing the edge's invincibility frames to do rising reverse nairs (thanks Gmaster for this tip). Awestin, by comparison mixes some of the first style (he Pkts a lot), but also acts sort of like DeDeDe, opting for fthrows -> off stage dair gimps.
The goal of this topic is to come closer to fully understanding Ness's edgeguard game, on a fundamental level assessing his various options against EVERYONE, and then to turn to specific match-up advice.
Let's start with the Fundamentals.
I. Edge guarding with Ness isn't very "natural".
If you play Ness, you know by now that he isn't very "normal". His jumps are slow and awkward, weave differently depending on whether you jump and then hold a side direction, versus jumping with a direction held and then letting go. There are a few important things I want to touch on that a Ness player should always keep in mind when considering the edgeguard.
A. Ness's second jump is slow. This is advantageous and disadvantageous. It is advantageous when Ness is covering a lot of aerial options, since he can control a lot of space when his aerial is paired with a move with a long hitbox (a rising Dair/nair comes to mind). But its disadvantages are also readily apparent--namely, it sucks at covering on stage recovery options.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhNAn8uz0M0&feature=player_detailpage&t=424
This video demonstrates one of the most common ways to punish a sheik
up b. By edgehogging (with invincibility frames), you force the recovering player to recover on stage, at which point they experience their ending lag for upb. Most characters have the option at this point to jump from the edge and commit to an aerial. Because of Ness's slow second jump, doing this part can be tricky. (other characters with "long" onstage recovery lag includes , , , , . Feel free to add others.
There are a couple solutions with how to punish an onstage recovery with Ness.
1. Learn to drop from the edge, and do a DJC dair/fair as you barely clear the edge. This way, much like a cfalcon will ledge hop -> dair, we can ledge hop -> DJC dair. But you have to practice to see whether you get maximum results from dropping from the edge a little before you do the rise, or whether it works better to simply do a jump immediately after letting go of the ledge.
2. ledgejump option. This addition to PM is a godsend for Ness. You can ledgejump->wavedash onto the stage for a grab/any other option you want. You can ledgejump to immediate aerial, and that covers the on stage area right next to the ledge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feT7V-XDsA0&feature=player_detailpage&t=430).
Alternatively, you can ledge jump-> magnet them, to DJC any aerial you want for a fresh combo.
3. Simple get up punish. Same as we see here:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=btm9X8aXghw&feature=player_detailpage&t=15
This is actually a poor option for ness, since his ledge jump (and consequently, ledgewavedash) is probably much faster than his get up.
Lacking a standard second jump, Ness has no easy way to refresh invincibility frames on the edge. This means Ness players have to be accurate with their wavedashes to the edge. So far, the fastest way I've found to recover invincibility frames is to simply let go of the edge and airdodge straight up. I don't know the frame data, but this leads to a regrab qucker than anything else I know of. I'd be curious if ledge jump to wavedash backwards is an option.
If you are a real boss, you can be like Awestin. But honestly, I do NOT recommend this as it is definitely showboaty and inferior to simply waiting and wavedashing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feT7V-XDsA0&feature=player_detailpage#t=548
C. Ness's recovery can be turned against him
This is especially important for Ness players who like to "go deep" with their edgeguarding. In addition to having a edgeguard strategy, a Ness player needs to not pull a George Bush and go hard without an "exit strategy".
Things to keep in mind:
i. you have to be positioned after an edgeguard to make a consistent recovery (i.e. produce an angle with pk thunder that you are comfortable with). This means avoid being underneath the stage (now, you might be thinking I'm being dumb for proposing that you would chase an opponent under a stage, but think of the frequency when you edge guard a marth up b for example, and you trade and get knocked underneath battlefield).
ii. Always be ready for the possibility that your opponent will try to eat your PK thunder. Isn't that the worst? When you've successfully gimped someone, and they eat your thunder and you end up dying while saving them? This means know the situations when you have to aim a pkthunder in a reverse circle, or turn it around your opponent and still hit yourself so that you can recover. Or, maybe your most safe option, is to just go into magnet. Magnet can AT WORST, stall you until your opponent falls lower and dies. AT BEST, it will knock your opponent away from you, giving you breathing room. Remember, Ness's pkt2 has some of the best distance of any recovery in the game. You can afford to be daring off stage and stall in magnet.
Ness has the following edgeguard options available to him. I will subjectively rate them with a 1 star, 2 star, or 3 star rating. Feel free to contest these ratings, and we can talk about them. Also, a triple star rating isn't expressely better than a 1 star rating, as there are some situations that call for a response from the 1-star column. I just tend to think of the triple star rated stuff as having the most versatility at getting the job done on the greatest variety of characters.
***1. jump off stage (narrow) dair/nair/fair
Another example
a third example
a fourth example
***2. Rising (or run off) dair (next to stage---usually done by running off stage and rising dair).
Another Example.
A third example.
***3. from ledge, rising backwards nair
**4. Pk flash. You can either go for the hit
or cover the sweetspot.
**5. Downsmash yoyo
**6. Bat (hits below ledge)
**7. DJC bair at edge
**8. DJC/rising bair/nair/dair (above edge) .
Another example.
**9. jump off stage (deep) fair/nair/dair
**10. Wavedash over edge nair (no invincibility or ledge grab)
**11. Wavedash over edge fair
**12. fast fall nair from edge
*13. Charged usmash yoyo
*14. Pkfire (grounded)
*15. PKfire (aerial)
*16. Pk thunder (head . Another example of head. You can also use the head to turn them around)
17. Pk thunder (tail).
*18. Wavedash over the edge bair
*19. Magnet
*20. Running in place at edge->frame perfect fair (this is done by holding forward on the analog stick, then shifting it from forward position to forward and down. As a result, your character will run in place at the edge. By inputing forward on the cstick, you will do a frame perfect fair).
Please post in here examples of each of these types of edge guards. I will try and look for examples as well.
You have some Ness's that are afraid to approach the edge and spam projectiles (pkfire/flash/thunder), you have Eli who favors a low risk-low reward approach in most of his games, opting for a charged usmash over the edge, and others like myself tend to favor utilizing the edge's invincibility frames to do rising reverse nairs (thanks Gmaster for this tip). Awestin, by comparison mixes some of the first style (he Pkts a lot), but also acts sort of like DeDeDe, opting for fthrows -> off stage dair gimps.
The goal of this topic is to come closer to fully understanding Ness's edgeguard game, on a fundamental level assessing his various options against EVERYONE, and then to turn to specific match-up advice.
Let's start with the Fundamentals.
I. Edge guarding with Ness isn't very "natural".
If you play Ness, you know by now that he isn't very "normal". His jumps are slow and awkward, weave differently depending on whether you jump and then hold a side direction, versus jumping with a direction held and then letting go. There are a few important things I want to touch on that a Ness player should always keep in mind when considering the edgeguard.
A. Ness's second jump is slow. This is advantageous and disadvantageous. It is advantageous when Ness is covering a lot of aerial options, since he can control a lot of space when his aerial is paired with a move with a long hitbox (a rising Dair/nair comes to mind). But its disadvantages are also readily apparent--namely, it sucks at covering on stage recovery options.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhNAn8uz0M0&feature=player_detailpage&t=424
This video demonstrates one of the most common ways to punish a sheik
up b. By edgehogging (with invincibility frames), you force the recovering player to recover on stage, at which point they experience their ending lag for upb. Most characters have the option at this point to jump from the edge and commit to an aerial. Because of Ness's slow second jump, doing this part can be tricky. (other characters with "long" onstage recovery lag includes , , , , . Feel free to add others.There are a couple solutions with how to punish an onstage recovery with Ness.
1. Learn to drop from the edge, and do a DJC dair/fair as you barely clear the edge. This way, much like a cfalcon will ledge hop -> dair, we can ledge hop -> DJC dair. But you have to practice to see whether you get maximum results from dropping from the edge a little before you do the rise, or whether it works better to simply do a jump immediately after letting go of the ledge.
2. ledgejump option. This addition to PM is a godsend for Ness. You can ledgejump->wavedash onto the stage for a grab/any other option you want. You can ledgejump to immediate aerial, and that covers the on stage area right next to the ledge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feT7V-XDsA0&feature=player_detailpage&t=430).
Alternatively, you can ledge jump-> magnet them, to DJC any aerial you want for a fresh combo.
3.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=btm9X8aXghw&feature=player_detailpage&t=15
This is actually a poor option for ness, since his ledge jump (and consequently, ledgewavedash) is probably much faster than his get up.
B. Ness has no easy way to recover invincibility framesLedge Jump <100%
Total: 15
Intangible: 1-15
Ledge Jump >100%
Total: 19
Intangible: 1-19
vs.
Ledge Stand <100%
Total: 35
Intangible: 1-30
Ledge Stand >100%
Total: 60
Intangible: 1-55
Lacking a standard second jump, Ness has no easy way to refresh invincibility frames on the edge. This means Ness players have to be accurate with their wavedashes to the edge. So far, the fastest way I've found to recover invincibility frames is to simply let go of the edge and airdodge straight up. I don't know the frame data, but this leads to a regrab qucker than anything else I know of. I'd be curious if ledge jump to wavedash backwards is an option.
If you are a real boss, you can be like Awestin. But honestly, I do NOT recommend this as it is definitely showboaty and inferior to simply waiting and wavedashing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feT7V-XDsA0&feature=player_detailpage#t=548
C. Ness's recovery can be turned against him
This is especially important for Ness players who like to "go deep" with their edgeguarding. In addition to having a edgeguard strategy, a Ness player needs to not pull a George Bush and go hard without an "exit strategy".
Things to keep in mind:
i. you have to be positioned after an edgeguard to make a consistent recovery (i.e. produce an angle with pk thunder that you are comfortable with). This means avoid being underneath the stage (now, you might be thinking I'm being dumb for proposing that you would chase an opponent under a stage, but think of the frequency when you edge guard a marth up b for example, and you trade and get knocked underneath battlefield).
ii. Always be ready for the possibility that your opponent will try to eat your PK thunder. Isn't that the worst? When you've successfully gimped someone, and they eat your thunder and you end up dying while saving them? This means know the situations when you have to aim a pkthunder in a reverse circle, or turn it around your opponent and still hit yourself so that you can recover. Or, maybe your most safe option, is to just go into magnet. Magnet can AT WORST, stall you until your opponent falls lower and dies. AT BEST, it will knock your opponent away from you, giving you breathing room. Remember, Ness's pkt2 has some of the best distance of any recovery in the game. You can afford to be daring off stage and stall in magnet.
Ness has the following edgeguard options available to him. I will subjectively rate them with a 1 star, 2 star, or 3 star rating. Feel free to contest these ratings, and we can talk about them. Also, a triple star rating isn't expressely better than a 1 star rating, as there are some situations that call for a response from the 1-star column. I just tend to think of the triple star rated stuff as having the most versatility at getting the job done on the greatest variety of characters.
***1. jump off stage (narrow) dair/nair/fair
Another example
a third example
a fourth example
***2. Rising (or run off) dair (next to stage---usually done by running off stage and rising dair).
Another Example.
A third example.
***3. from ledge, rising backwards nair
**4. Pk flash. You can either go for the hit
or cover the sweetspot.
**5. Downsmash yoyo
**6. Bat (hits below ledge)
**7. DJC bair at edge
**8. DJC/rising bair/nair/dair (above edge) .
Another example.
**9. jump off stage (deep) fair/nair/dair
**10. Wavedash over edge nair (no invincibility or ledge grab)
**11. Wavedash over edge fair
**12. fast fall nair from edge
*13. Charged usmash yoyo
*14. Pkfire (grounded)
*15. PKfire (aerial)
*16. Pk thunder (head . Another example of head. You can also use the head to turn them around)
17. Pk thunder (tail).
*18. Wavedash over the edge bair
*19. Magnet
*20. Running in place at edge->frame perfect fair (this is done by holding forward on the analog stick, then shifting it from forward position to forward and down. As a result, your character will run in place at the edge. By inputing forward on the cstick, you will do a frame perfect fair).
Please post in here examples of each of these types of edge guards. I will try and look for examples as well.
Last edited:
