An alternative to Sheik that isn't Sheik.

[straydoggywog]

So I've mostly been playing melee as of late, and I play lots of Sheik. I'm very comfortable with her and am looking for a character that has much the same philosophy of play as Sheik, while not actually being Sheik(I don't want PM Sheik to mess with my Melee Sheik).

So who in PM has a similar enough play style to be applicable(Tech chases, Grab set ups and a good neutral b), yet dissimilar enough to not mess with my other characters tech?

 

[Bellioes]

PM sheik plays pretty much the same as Melee so the only big differences would come from the games' "feelings" being different. Youll get that anyways despite the character you pick so I dont think sticking to Sheik would be a bad idea either.

If you really dont want to play sheik though, I know that Mario's fireballs are downright awesome and he has a great grab game with all of his throws leading to combos (Dthrow/Uthrow) or off-stage edgeguarding (F- or B-throw).

I dont really know about his tech-chase game but anyways, its a skill that isnt really char specific to be honest. Any char can do it, just some better than others with some having moves that lead directly into these kinds of situations.

Also, Mario isnt very reliant on high level tech-skill so you wont mess up your melee game too much with your muscles being trained to doing mario-specific techs.

Hes definitely not as fast and mobile as Sheik but imo, mario would be a good choice for what your looking for.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Mk has that tech chase going on. His is more on reaction, than prediction though. All of his throws have a function and he probably has Di traps on some of them. He has an amazing recovery, good combos, great mobility and doesn't have a high tech skill level. He also has transcendent property on most of his sword moves, so that's something.

 

[ECHOnce]

Pit is sort of like a Sheik...but with swords, wings (4 jumps), and needles that can hit anywhere. And he has Cap. Falcon-like D-air strings. And a Jigglypuff-like wall of pain. And a victory cheer that'll instantly make your friends 5x saltier than normal.

He relies on grabs similarly to Sheik, and can combo fairly well and easily like her too. D-throw leads to Up-B (kill% / floaty), U-air (high% / average), U-smash (low% / heavy), or tech chases (spacies). He has good/even matchups against most if not all of the cast. Once you train aiming your arrows, you should be able to hit anything from anywhere, which is pretty useful for gimps / tacking on extra % / approaches. Pit's Side-B also makes for a great approach option. F-air kills like Sheik's with similar range/etc., and his B-air is a weaker version with a lingering hotbox. N-air is good for combos, D-air has a Marth-like spike hotbox, sour-spotted U-airs combo, and sweet-spotted U-airs can kill. D-tilt and U-tilt work similarly to Sheik's, and F-tilt is a second F-air.

- - - - -​

However, you should still consider that there are few significant changes that would detract for your gameplay, if you're going from SSBM Sheik to PM Sheik. Since the reverse isn't true with the addition of SSBB mechanics in PM, which would likely mess you up going back to SSBM, the following info would only be useful in case of like...you practice SSBM Sheik primarily, you're playing PM, and felt like Sheik would have a better MU than whoever you pick as your PM main. Sorta like a last resort, if u feel your SSBM Sheik play is your best.

If you're trying to go straight from Melee into PM and play like a Melee Sheik, the main difference is that she loses her chaingrab. From a D-throw, you can either tech chase (not nearly as easily as in SSBM imo, usually only with spacie-weights) or F-tilt/etc. combo. Unlike in Melee, comboing into death (or at least lots of damage) isn't as easy, so you may find yourself resetting to neutral way more often. However, so long as you feel you have a good neutral game, you'll likely manage the SSBM --> PM transition.

PM --> SSBM can really hurt your play, in that you may not have enough chain grab and/or tech chase practice from PM Sheik to play SSBM Sheik. You could also fall into the habit of using B-throw into F-air (works pretty consistently unlike in Melee) and RAR (Reverse Air Rush) B-airs to space if you practice PM Sheik primarily. RAR airs are a Brawl mechanic that involves you pivoting during a dash and immediately jumping, allowing you to keep your forwards momentum while turned around to face backwards (which opens up the great spacing option for Sheik of dashing up to opponents and quickly SH RAR B-airing).

 

[Fortress]

To entirely disagree with the above post, going from PM Sheik to Melee Sheik is fine. Only major changes are her release timings on throws, and trajectories on them. No universal Brawl mechanics really affect her that much. She's one of the few characters from Melee who isn't strongly affected by those changes one way or the other. Going from PM to Melee Sheik is fine, even easier since D-Throw becomes more free on more characters. Your setups off of throws will be different, but in general you're going to retain the same playstyles. It's an easy transition.

 

[ECHOnce]

To entirely disagree with the above post, going from PM Sheik to Melee Sheik is fine. Only major changes are her release timings on throws, and trajectories on them. No universal Brawl mechanics really affect her that much. She's one of the few characters from Melee who isn't strongly affected by those changes one way or the other. Going from PM to Melee Sheik is fine, even easier since D-Throw becomes more free on more characters. Your setups off of throws will be different, but in general you're going to retain the same playstyles. It's an easy transition.

I'll admit, I misspoke. I'm coming from the perspective of playing PM 95% of the times and playing Melee 5% of the times. Sheik is the least changed among the Melee top tiers in terms of game physics; her movement feels the most consistent between the two games. I was just pointing out specific issues a primarily PM Sheik may run into if they integrate a lot of RAR'ing and different grab setups, to the extent that they can't break out of trying to use those combos/setups in Melee, where they don't work as well. (e.g. approaching with a run-up F-air and expecting a RAR B-air because of habit, B-throwing to F-air and completely misjudging where they'll end up, etc.) I probably just generated this pinion as a nooby PM player that gets screwed on occasion by Melee physics, and the little differences add to that. But if you play both Melee and PM somewhat consistently, you're not a noob, and don't get too used to the little combos until you do them out of habit (even when they don't work between games), then Sheik play can transition well as you said.

 

[Fortress]

Sheik is the least changed among the Melee top tiers in terms of game physics

That dubious honor actually belongs to Puff. She is 100% a clone of her Melee self.

 

[straydoggywog]

It's the PM to Melee Transition I'm worried about. I'm fairly proficient in Melee, my tech skill with shiek is good, my grab game, my aerials, going from Melee to PM is no problem. Coming back to melee from PM is different for me because timings more forgiving in PM(PM has buffer frames while Melee does not) and I don't want it to be a thing where I unconsciously rely on those buffer frames.

For example. and up throw read to a dash attack. In Melee my timing I would delay until after the throw is complete to start the dash then to attack. in PM I have some leeway, and that leeway coming back to melee could turn my dash attack into a f-tilt, thus taking away my followup from the dash attack. That aside though...

I like the Mario idea, Beefy aerials a great projectile, and amazing grab game and a character without a real weakness, phenomenal. I actually might do it.

Meta knight I feel is like a really fast puff with a sword. so I'm not sure if that's what I'm looking for but I will play around with it. I love the grabs and the followups though.

Pit is a character I feel can adapt to an circumstance due to arrows and maneuverability. +all the salt "YOU CAN'T DEFEAT ME!!!" or the famous "YOU'RE NOT READY YET!"

Thanks for the suggestions all, I'll go to the lab and start toying around.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Mario's weakness is his range and people with disjoint/range combo, basically, swords.

 

[Deleted member]

Mario's weakness is his neutral b. Seriously, fireballs are so good that people don't take time to learn the rest of the character, so they get beat when they play someone good.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

That as well
Lol

 

[Soft Serve]

PM doesn't have buffer frames

The only differences between Melee/PM is landing detection and some momentum issues happen one frame later (actually moving durring a jump is the biggest one iirc), And the sensitivity to dash is lighter in PM. Its very very minuscule things and no one is technical enough for it to get to you. There are more animations in PM i guess and that throws people off switching between the two. Its all in your head.
Fox tech skill flows seamlessly between the two, its all the same timings.

The characters most similar to shiek imo are Shiek, MK, a little bit of pit, some parts of Olimar (good throws, great at stalling out the neutral game, godlike fair/simple juggles), and maybe Ivy.

 

[guedes the brawler]

PM doesn't have buffer frames
.

by default no, but there is an option to enable that iirc

 

[Soft Serve]

by default no, but there is an option to enable that iirc

well yeah lol

but the instance in particular that the OP brought up had to do with the differences in the sensitivity to dash between the two, not any buffers. Its a lot easier to dash in pm, and is one of the main reasons M2K cites as being able to play fox in PM better and without his fox-specific controller.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Coming back to melee from PM is different for me because timings more forgiving in PM(PM has buffer frames while Melee does not) and I don't want it to be a thing where I unconsciously rely on those buffer frames.

Who teaches you people this stuff lol
The only buffer PM has is the ability to buffer OoS options with the C-stick, which is also in melee.
In fact, Melee has buffer that PM doesn't. There's a 20 frame jump buffer at the end of hitstun in melee that guarantees you'll jump after hitstun on the first possible frame regardless of whether you mashed or just have ****ty timing and tried too early. In PM, you have to properly time your jump after hitstun, like any other option.

 

[straydoggywog]

Thank you for correcting me on the buffer frames data, I forget where I heard PM had it but whatever

You learn something new everyday. Even if what you learn is that what you thought you knew was wrong