All About Smash 4's Bots

[CharZane]

Bots have always been rife with stigma in past smash games for their mix of cheating inputs along with predictable behavior. They've historically been horrific training partners good only for developing terrible habits, while behaving as far from actual players are was possible... along with quite the many completely ridiculous SDs.

Yet, as I was trying out new characters in smash 4, it struck me that the difference between bots and human players has gotten startlingly... narrow-- at least compared to past versions. Bots look to lack for so many psychic moments, their tactics follow a surprising number of parallels up to and including some fundamental combos, zoning, spamming, edgeguarding... In fact, I've even seen such clever behavior as team-bots grabbing me to allow another to hit with a charged smash. They're certainly not a comparable challenge in 1v1s to humans, but I've found myself finding them to be far better practice of mechanics than any previous games, if nothing else (given that it's all the benefit of playing a weak-but-not-helpless player without any of For Glory's lag). For getting the bare-bones fundamentals of a matchup, getting used to hitboxes despite airdodges/power shields, and so on, I've gotten some surprising mileage from bots-- to the point that a full half of my play has been against them... yet, unlike melee, I honestly don't feel to be worse off for it. Bots in this game can punish typical smash-spamming, unsafe aerials, dash-spam, or heavy rolling quite a bit better than before.

Wringing a true challenge from the bots tends to require team-versus-ones against some 9s (team attack on, though-- I really can't wrap my head around it being off, personally)-- I find it quite the ordeal thus-far to make it out of a 2v1 with more than a single stock left in some 7-stock game even with my main, but it most certainly helps me to get some super focused training in Fairing sans c-stick with Lucina (which'd likely take thrice as many games to re-learn if playing normally...)

In any case, I didn't see a threat for discussing the new bots, so I was curious as to what all people might have to say about them-- be that training methods, general thoughts, or so on.

 

[Cammed Z28]

Bots have always been rife with stigma in past smash games for their mix of cheating inputs along with predictable behavior. They've historically been horrific training partners good only for developing terrible habits, while behaving as far from actual players are was possible... along with quite the many completely ridiculous SDs.

Yet, as I was trying out new characters in smash 4, it struck me that the difference between bots and human players has gotten startlingly... narrow-- at least compared to past versions. Bots look to lack for so many psychic moments, their tactics follow a surprising number of parallels up to and including some fundamental combos, zoning, spamming, edgeguarding... In fact, I've even seen such clever behavior as team-bots grabbing me to allow another to hit with a charged smash. They're certainly not a comparable challenge in 1v1s to humans, but I've found myself finding them to be far better practice of mechanics than any previous games, if nothing else (given that it's all the benefit of playing a weak-but-not-helpless player without any of For Glory's lag). For getting the bare-bones fundamentals of a matchup, getting used to hitboxes despite airdodges/power shields, and so on, I've gotten some surprising mileage from bots-- to the point that a full half of my play has been against them... yet, unlike melee, I honestly don't feel to be worse off for it. Bots in this game can punish typical smash-spamming, unsafe aerials, dash-spam, or heavy rolling quite a bit better than before.


Wringing a true challenge from the bots tends to require team-versus-ones against some 9s (team attack on, though-- I really can't wrap my head around it being off, personally)-- I find it quite the ordeal thus-far to make it out of a 2v1 with more than a single stock left in some 7-stock game even with my main, but it most certainly helps me to get some super focused training in Fairing sans c-stick with Lucina (which'd likely take thrice as many games to re-learn if playing normally...)

In any case, I didn't see a threat for discussing the new bots, so I was curious as to what all people might have to say about them-- be that training methods, general thoughts, or so on.

good thread


That is actually all a bit fascinating, I have not ever looked at it from the point of view you just presented which kinda makes me laugh and feel rather daft. Myself and some others have expected an unobtainable level of skill from bots and tend to be let down when the computer does not perform like a living thinking breathing human being LOL duuh

 

[Zero Suit Wario]

They are decent for practice but I feel as though they are too input reading- I push a button and their shield goes up in the very small window of time between my input and contact with the bot.

 

[tuterking]

One thing that really helped me was putting bots on lvl 9 in training and setting them to run. It was nice for getting use to hitting a target that will sheild, doge, etc. Also it was nice to getting use to hitting my rest with Jiggs. Also The bots have improved by a bit because I now have to punish and grab to kill a lvl 9 little mac, although he counter ever two second you attack.

So ya I have to agree the bots are way better than what they were and force you to not just dodge roll, which I feel the old bots taught me to do constantly.

 

[Linkdude74]

I was pleasantly surprised with the bots in this game myself, and they were good to hold me off when I'm on my own. I think the AI of Amiibo is where the training will get really interesting. It could prove to be a bot that is actually helpful. That said, i have found lvl 8 bots to be perfect for training only because they don't dodge and shield inhumanly perfect

 

[tuterking]

I was pleasantly surprised with the bots in this game myself, and they were good to hold me off when I'm on my own. I think the AI of Amiibo is where the training will get really interesting. It could prove to be a bot that is actually helpful. That said, i have found lvl 8 bots to be perfect for training only because they don't dodge and shield inhumanly perfect

I have a feeling as time goes on we might see people be better than that. Not us, for we are just mere human, but the extreme competitive people.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

I like the bots in this game as far as practising characters and mechanics is concerned - moreso than in any other Smash game. I stick to level 7 because they're smart enough to make putting effort in worthwhile while not doing nearly as much of the perfect shielding/input reading hax rubbish that the 8s and 9s do.

 

[Babali Boon]

I also thought I noticed this a bit. It's nice to see a thread on it. I was playing last night as Game & Watch, and was spamming my neutral b against a CPU Mega Man. At first he was just running into it, a few times he just charged towards me and then was pushed back. Then he stopped and seemed to "think" for a couple of seconds before then perfectly dodging through it till he was suddenly right behind me. I don't know if it was calculating, going through it's database of options, or what, but it stopped and seemed to process what was going on for a moment, then made it's move. I spammed it again later on and it knew just what to do.

 

[tuterking]

Playing a bit more I will say, the bots are very stupid to when you miss rest. They just stand there watching you, even the lvl 9s. Most they will do is a grab but a lot of times they just waiting for you to wake up.

 

[Babali Boon]

Playing a bit more I will say, the bots are very stupid to when you miss rest. They just stand there watching you, even the lvl 9s. Most they will do is a grab but a lot of times they just waiting for you to wake up.

I just went into a match as Jiggly against a CPU Level 7 Yoshi to test this out, and missed all my rests on purpose. The CPU did all kinds of stuff to me. It tossed eggs at me, side-b'd me, smash attacked me, grabbed me. It basically just had it's way with me. Are some CPUs better than others?

 

[CharZane]

I've only really experienced level 9 computers, myself-- their power shields let me practice 'safe' moves like Lucina's Fair without screwing up and setting a punish angle in doing so even in the 'worst case scenario'. It honestly takes every once I've got to beat 2 teamed lv 9s at 7 stocks, but it feels much closer to fighting a human. Level 1s are certainly still as stupid as sin, and even 9s have their quirks (like being obligated to use every move at some point, including LM's neutral B or such). The counter-spamming is a pattern that felt oppressive at first but, honestly, I've seen worse from players in For Glory, so it just struck me as 'skilled' spamming-- though after I got some feel for punishing it the AI started to use it less.

I'm likewise really excited for Amibos, though-- if I had the budget, I'd certainly get all of them just to have some 'advanced AIs' for warmups or whatnot-- particularly if I could get them trained to mimic tactics that specifically give me problems... though, as-is, I'm more likely to just get those for my mains and maybe secondaries to start-- not exactly much of a budget. ^^"

Glad to hear that the thread is well-received, though-- I was a mite worried about a more dismissive consensus, but it's a bit ridiculous for me to be underestimating the smash community's good spirit like that. ^;^

 

[Cornstalk]

They are decent for practice but I feel as though they are too input reading- I push a button and their shield goes up in the very small window of time between my input and contact with the bot.

This is where the practice falls apart for me as well. What I really need to work on is reading and anticipating my opponent. Unfortunately, bots are one step ahead of me in this regard. There is absolutely no psyching them out. This is why I do my gear grinding on lower difficulties. Just let me hit you and get my prize. It's bad enough I have to grind a damn single player mode to unlock gear in the first place... *grumblegrumble*

 

[Zero Suit Roxas]

The bots are a lot better. Many times they would run into my Paralyzer shots but they seemed to expect it more as matches went on. They stayed further away so they could avoid it and sometimes tried attacking me from above.

But they still have those little "bugs" in them that make them stand out from human players. Like whenever a CPU Mega Man shoots a sticky bomb on me and I manage to give it back to him, he starts spamming dodges left and right until it explodes. He doesn't avoid it or try giving it back to me, he just dodges back and forth. He doesn't shield the explosion like people would. Nope. He just tries avoiding it miserably.

Other than that I think they're much smarter than they used to be.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina feels like she can take on high-leveled CPUs more easily than most other fighters in a 1-on-1 match. The Luma helps her with her approaches, and makes it harder for the CPU to try to shield-grab you. I actually 3-stocked a level 7 Ganondorf with Rosalina without taking any damage once.

Basically, with Rosalina, make the enemy come to you, and then retaliate hard.

 

[RespawningJesus]

I feel that bots are really good at playing defense, but when it comes down to offense, they are okay.

Honestly, I have played against the CPU so much, I am sick of them at this point. (The joys of not having Internet for a good while.)

 

[Raijinken]

I always have, and always will, find them more useful than Training Mode or simply not playing. Any practice is better than no practice, and training mode is hardly what I'd call useful. Build bad habits if you must, but playing is more important. Especially if you're like I was pre-college and you don't live near (or otherwise have access to) much of a Smash scene.

 

[tuterking]

I just went into a match as Jiggly against a CPU Level 7 Yoshi to test this out, and missed all my rests on purpose. The CPU did all kinds of stuff to me. It tossed eggs at me, side-b'd me, smash attacked me, grabbed me. It basically just had it's way with me. Are some CPUs better than others?

Two answer you question, yes some computers are way better than others. Little mac and any with counters seem to be the hardest to fight in my opinion but some are just easy to fight like king dedede. As for what I did, go into training mode and set the computer to run and set damage to where you can kill it with rest. If you don't you will just get hit a million times and can't train yourself to land rest.

Rosalina feels like she can take on high-leveled CPUs more easily than most other fighters in a 1-on-1 match. The Luma helps her with her approaches, and makes it harder for the CPU to try to shield-grab you. I actually 3-stocked a level 7 Ganondorf with Rosalina without taking any damage once.

Basically, with Rosalina, make the enemy come to you, and then retaliate hard.

Oh ya this is so true. I played as Rosalina and Luma against lvl 9s and just owned every single one of them. I thought I might be good with her so I faced my bro, who is good at the game, and he just kicked my butt.

 

[shogungari]

I just went into a match as Jiggly against a CPU Level 7 Yoshi to test this out, and missed all my rests on purpose. The CPU did all kinds of stuff to me. It tossed eggs at me, side-b'd me, smash attacked me, grabbed me. It basically just had it's way with me. Are some CPUs better than others?

Yes, any AI with a counter will be a nightmare to fight unless you spam projectiles and grabs. I absolutely despise fighting Marth because not only do all his attacks seem to have priority and instant attack speed but he can counter anything I throw at him with perfect timing. It got to the point I dominated a friend of mine who's trying to main with Marth because I got so good at killing level 9 Marths.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Oh ya this is so true. I played as Rosalina and Luma against lvl 9s and just owned every single one of them. I thought I might be good with her so I faced my bro, who is good at the game, and he just kicked my butt.

This is basically why the AI is not a good way to train yourself. You literally need to face other human players to avoid making bad habits.

 

[Rakurai]

The level 9 AI can punish you far more easily then an actual player can due to how frequently they perfect shield attacks, which essentially gives them zero shield stun most of the time.

That alone forces one to adopt a playstyle that's much different from what you can use on an actual player.

 

[CharZane]

This is basically why the AI is not a good way to train yourself. You literally need to face other human players to avoid making bad habits.

I feel that if you're facing AIs in such a way that you're preying on their shortcomings, you'll end up with some bad habits, but the inverse can prove just as true-- one won't be finding many better a foe to practice developing safe-on-shield approaches against or a foe who counters any better, should those be what you're trying to practice defeating. While their overall skill cap is, of course, far below humans, you can still get some basic refinement of mechanics out of them, if nothing else. The important thing is being able to distinguish bots and humans, and making sure not to play so much of the former that your tactics against the latter end up lacking. Mechanics alone can certainly beat bots, but that certainly does little to help with fundamental 'versus human' skills like prediction, baiting, mindgames, handling spam, evading gimps, escaping juggles/combos, et cetera.

You certainly need to face humans to learn more than the mechanics and the most basic of tactics, but at least bots have a fair bit to contribute so long as you're not playing them so exclusively as to get caught in dead-end methods. ^^

The level 9 AI can punish you far more easily then an actual player can due to how frequently they perfect shield attacks, which essentially gives them zero shield stun most of the time.

That alone forces one to adopt a playstyle that's much different from what you can use on an actual player.

True, as with their ease-of-use for counters compared to players, but it does help to be able to train for 'worst case scenarios'. It's a bit impossible to ask a player to help you practice 'perfect-shield-safe' approaches or whatnot, which can be helpful to know for the situations where it will occur against humans-- even if less frequent, such situations will still, at least, exist. Developing a playstyle specifically to deal with bots will certainly cause no end to problems, but there's much more use to be had than previously, is my only argument.

Edit: Also, I'm now curious as the the power-shield/counter frequency of level 8/7 AIs-- finding what niche trainings each AI level works for could certainly prove valuable. 9 is definitely the go-to for dealing with power-shielding masters, if anything, while I feel like 1's main use is... I guess practicing setting up gimps, given that they completely lack for any activity beyond attempting to recover... Not sure that lower AIs are even remotely feasible, to be honest, for much of anything. 7-9 might have some uses, but those are niches as-is.

 

[Darklink401]

So here's something interesting:

Many individual times I faced off against a level 9 AI, and used a certain strategy to beat them or trump them.

However, a match later, facing the same character at level 9, the same technique did NOT work, and they handed my ass to me on plate, as I was not expecting this.

Now, it's not a FACT, but given Amiibo's technology DOES allow it to learn and adapt....

I think Sakurai MIGHT have made Smash 4's AI self-learning as well, to an extent.

Which is actually scary.

 

[Babali Boon]

Now, it's not a FACT, but given Amiibo's technology DOES allow it to learn and adapt....

I think Sakurai MIGHT have made Smash 4's AI self-learning as well, to an extent.

Which is actually scary.

I thought the exact same thing. Like I said in an earlier post, I was playing against a CPU Mega Man, I believe level 7 or 8, and they seemed to stop and "think" for a moment. It was definitely eerie.

 

[Darklink401]

I thought the exact same thing. Like I said in an earlier post, I was playing against a CPU Mega Man, I believe level 7 or 8, and they seemed to stop and "think" for a moment. It was definitely eerie.

Mhmm, not only is the CPU high level in this game (even if you exclude the input-reading), they seem to be able to slightly alter their playstyle sometimes.

They also seem to adapt to how strong the PLAYER HIMSELF is. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but sometimes I feel I'm playing like sh*t and I barely beat them. Other times, I play REALLY well, and I 3-stock them, but the challenge in doing so was much greater x.x

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The odd part is that I fought a level 7 Bowser Jr. consecutively with Rosalina before, and yet even after as many as five consecutive matches, I could still clobber him without too many issues; he never even got a single KO on me. I guess some CPUs don't adapt as well as others, but since I was using Rosalina, the Luma's presence likely helped limit how the CPU could adapt.

 

[shogungari]

The odd part is that I fought a level 7 Bowser Jr. consecutively with Rosalina before, and yet even after as many as five consecutive matches, I could still clobber him without too many issues; he never even got a single KO on me. I guess some CPUs don't adapt as well as others, but since I was using Rosalina, the Luma's presence likely helped limit how the CPU could adapt.

The AIs all behave the same in terms of actual programming but vary because of what moves they have, so I suppose that could be a major flaw with learning to fight certain characters because any player worth their weight will know how and when to jump/use moves. Level 9 Kirby will not stop using his fair to recover after each jump. Level 9 Toon Link has a bomb and arrow fetish. Yoshi's not even worth my time because the AI's programmed to keep trying to use up B to recover, even when such a thing doesn't exist. Although I will admit it's hilarious seeing level 9 yoshi fling eggs into the side of the field as he slowly falls to his doom....

 

[Darklink401]

The AIs all behave the same in terms of actual programming but vary because of what moves they have, so I suppose that could be a major flaw with learning to fight certain characters because any player worth their weight will know how and when to jump/use moves. Level 9 Kirby will not stop using his fair to recover after each jump. Level 9 Toon Link has a bomb and arrow fetish. Yoshi's not even worth my time because the AI's programmed to keep trying to use up B to recover, even when such a thing doesn't exist. Although I will admit it's hilarious seeing level 9 yoshi fling eggs into the side of the field as he slowly falls to his doom....

This game it works for a subpar horizontal recovery tho.

 

[Rakurai]

I really don't get why they retained their air dodge spamming behavior from Brawl.

It's easily the most abuseable flaw they have, since they don't account for the increased landing lag on the air dodges, and dodge even if they aren't in danger of being hit by something.

Seeing that the Amiibo AI doesn't exhibit this behavior (Nor does it abuse perfect shielding) makes it look more fun to fight.

 

[Crocomire]

AIs also don't appear to know how to use custom moves. I once fought a Samus that kept trying to use that close range charge shot from a distance.

 

[CharZane]

The odd part is that I fought a level 7 Bowser Jr. consecutively with Rosalina before, and yet even after as many as five consecutive matches, I could still clobber him without too many issues; he never even got a single KO on me. I guess some CPUs don't adapt as well as others, but since I was using Rosalina, the Luma's presence likely helped limit how the CPU could adapt.

I think Rosalina causes some real problems with AIs in general-- I don't feel like there's as much that one can gleam from them due to Luma screwing them up... not that it doesn't also screw up quite a few players, actually.

I really don't get why they retained their air dodge spamming behavior from Brawl.

It's easily the most abuseable flaw they have, since they don't account for the increased landing lag on the air dodges, and dodge even if they aren't in danger of being hit by something.

Seeing that the Amiibo AI doesn't exhibit this behavior (Nor does it abuse perfect shielding) makes it look more fun to fight.

Yeah... 'course, given that I've seen players do the exact some thing, I honestly can't knock them too hard for that bit, given how much safer air dodges are in the air-- still, if nothing else, it lets me get a feel for punishing them, considering how often they grant the opportunity.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think Rosalina causes some real problems with AIs in general-- I don't feel like there's as much that one can gleam from them due to Luma screwing them up... not that it doesn't also screw up quite a few players, actually.

The funny thing is, the CPU knows that the Luma can be a threat. As such, high-leveled CPUs will often try to defend themselves against the Luma's attacks, even while the Luma is separated from Rosalina.