AI Improvements

[Kirbunny431]

The AI of the Super Smash Brothers series is...lackluster. The AI is certainly able to put up a fight, but it's not nearly as advanced as it could be. As such, I'd like to provide some ideas as to how they can improve the CPUs for the next game.

~Free-for-All Actually Means Free-for-All~
In Brawl, the CPUs had an unmatched hatred for human players. Joining a free-for-all with several computers enabled would cause them to mostly go for you. They would follow you around and rarely attack other CPUs. They would constantly aim their Final Smashes and Dragoon attacks at you and only you. They didn't even try to fight fair.

As such, the AI in the next game shouldn't focus on just one player. It should be smart enough to figure out the best opportunities. The CPUs should focus on other CPUs if it would be advantageous to them. Let a free-for-all actually be every character for themselves.

~Increased Difficulty~
CPUs aren't really viable for practice. Even fighting Level 9s won't prepare you much for a fight against a human. I believe that the AI should be a bit more difficult to fight. Teach them how to combo and perform advanced techniques. Make them think a bit more like humans. Just improve them overall.

~Copycat Mode~
This is an idea I had a while ago. I think it would be really cool if you could create custom AI levels. Not just any custom AI levels, though. The custom AI actually behave like a human player you fought earlier.

Let me give you an example. You and Herman are going to fight. Herman is a really good player, and you want to be able to fight him even when he's not at your house or online. You set the game up to analyze his fighting style during the battle (somehow, through a special mode or option or whatever). The game analyzes Herman's fighting style, and at the end of the fight you have an option to save it. You save the data as "Herman" and return to the character select screen. You can now select "Herman" as a difficulty level. The AI of that level will try to match Herman's playstyle with the data it has available. Analyzing more fights with Herman will allow the AI to improve and act like him more accurately.

This idea is very optimistic and probably impossible. I thought I'd throw it out there for fun, though. I mean, wouldn't it be awesome to have a mirror match against yourself? Or a team match with your buddy even if he's not there? To appease Smashboards' competitive side, of course this wouldn't work as a suitable substitute of a real player in tournaments. It's just something fun to practice against and play around with.
---
Well, that concludes my lengthy post. How do you want the AI to improve in the next Smash? What would you change? Why?

 

[Phantom287]

The AI of the Super Smash Brothers series is...lackluster. The AI is certainly able to put up a fight, but it's not nearly as advanced as it could be. As such, I'd like to provide some ideas as to how they can improve the CPUs for the next game.

~Free-for-All Actually Means Free-for-All~
In Brawl, the CPUs had an unmatched hatred for human players. Joining a free-for-all with several computers enabled would cause them to mostly go for you. They would follow you around and rarely attack other CPUs. They would constantly aim their Final Smashes and Dragoon attacks at you and only you. They didn't even try to fight fair.

As such, the AI in the next game shouldn't focus on just one player. It should be smart enough to figure out the best opportunities. The CPUs should focus on other CPUs if it would be advantageous to them. Let a free-for-all actually be every character for themselves.

~Increased Difficulty~
CPUs aren't really viable for practice. Even fighting Level 9s won't prepare you much for a fight against a human. I believe that the AI should be a bit more difficult to fight. Teach them how to combo and perform advanced techniques. Make them think a bit more like humans. Just improve them overall.

~Copycat Mode~
This is an idea I had a while ago. I think it would be really cool if you could create custom AI levels. Not just any custom AI levels, though. The custom AI actually behave like a human player you fought earlier.

Let me give you an example. You and Herman are going to fight. Herman is a really good player, and you want to be able to fight him even when he's not at your house or online. You set the game up to analyze his fighting style during the battle (somehow, through a special mode or option or whatever). The game analyzes Herman's fighting style, and at the end of the fight you have an option to save it. You save the data as "Herman" and return to the character select screen. You can now select "Herman" as a difficulty level. The AI of that level will try to match Herman's playstyle with the data it has available. Analyzing more fights with Herman will allow the AI to improve and act like him more accurately.

This idea is very optimistic and probably impossible. I thought I'd throw it out there for fun, though. I mean, wouldn't it be awesome to have a mirror match against yourself? Or a team match with your buddy even if he's not there? To appease Smashboards' competitive side, of course this wouldn't work as a suitable substitute of a real player in tournaments. It's just something fun to practice against and play around with.
---
Well, that concludes my lengthy post. How do you want the AI to improve in the next Smash? What would you change? Why?

Yeah, improving AI in free-for-all would be great. It can get really irritating if all three cpus just gang up on you while ignoring or indirectly attacking one another. The AI felt poorly planned out on that one.

I do like the copycat AI idea, and I think Brawl's AI does this to a degree. For instance, most of the level 9 cpus in my game aren't that difficult, but I've noticed that, among the characters I use on a regular basis, the AI starts using techniques that I frequently use as that character when, previously, they never used to do it before, but it seems they picked up what to do from my previous fights with that character (e.g. lvl 9 cpu Fox suddenly starts using L-cancel f-air when previously he never did that).

So, it seems the CPU is capable of learning but I would like it to become far more sophisticated to the point where the CPU could mimic your style, or someone elses, nearly perfectly.

The only problem I could see with this copycat AI is in saving it as an actual difficulty level and using it on another character. For instance, say Herman only uses Ness, so his style is tailored to Ness' strengths. You save this difficulty data as Herman and then try and apply it to another character, let's say Ike, which, I would imagine, would result in a less than stellar opponent since what works for Ness may not necessarily work for Ike.

I would argue that a more sophisticated learning AI for all characters in general would ameliorate this problem while the copycat AI would be a good idea if there is a particular person using a particular character that you think is worth fighting again through use of a custom saved difficulty provided it's used only for that character.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I do know that in Melee, the CPUs will attack each other whenever they're within attacking distance.

In terms of AI, the CPUs should show little resistance on the lowest skill level; Melee level 1s come to mind there. After all, it seems quite disturbing when the easiest skill level is doing tactics that are more meant to be utilized by the level 5s and harder.

In terms of the level 9s, they would deliver the most advanced tactics, and they'll punish you for trying to use slow attacks. Additionally, they'll be much more defensive.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

The only thing I really want is for the CPU's to stop ****** my ***, seriously, I can't play against 3 CPU's unless if I get really lucky.

Spoiler

I can still win with Capt. Falcon or Gannondorf, it's just that it is very irritating to do so

Brawl AI is very annoying, I prefer the SSB64/Melee one alot more, where the CPU's actually attack each other.

Now, in terms of difficulty, I dunno man, I'm pretty satisfied the way it is, since I just stink at all SSB games that I have.

 

[Kirbunny431]

Yeah, improving AI in free-for-all would be great. It can get really irritating if all three cpus just gang up on you while ignoring or indirectly attacking one another. The AI felt poorly planned out on that one.

I do like the copycat AI idea, and I think Brawl's AI does this to a degree. For instance, most of the level 9 cpus in my game aren't that difficult, but I've noticed that, among the characters I use on a regular basis, the AI starts using techniques that I frequently use as that character when, previously, they never used to do it before, but it seems they picked up what to do from my previous fights with that character (e.g. lvl 9 cpu Fox suddenly starts using L-cancel f-air when previously he never did that).

I thought that was disproven. It's cool either way, though. I'm also glad that you like the copycat idea!

So, it seems the CPU is capable of learning but I would like it to become far more sophisticated to the point where the CPU could mimic your style, or someone elses, nearly perfectly.

The only problem I could see with this copycat AI is in saving it as an actual difficulty level and using it on another character. For instance, say Herman only uses Ness, so his style is tailored to Ness' strengths. You save this difficulty data as Herman and then try and apply it to another character, let's say Ike, which, I would imagine, would result in a less than stellar opponent since what works for Ness may not necessarily work for Ike.

I would argue that a more sophisticated learning AI for all characters in general would ameliorate this problem while the copycat AI would be a good idea if there is a particular person using a particular character that you think is worth fighting again through use of a custom saved difficulty provided it's used only for that character.

Very good points. I thought about that while I was writing the OP, but forgot to add it in. I agree, copycat should be useable only on the specific character Herman was playing as. I also agree that there should be a "more sophisticated learning AI for all characters in general," whether that be game-wide, only for Level 9s, or even a special Level 10 (or X, because X is cool) that specifically uses the techniques it learns. (Basically, it starts off dumb as a post but after a few matches starts to get really awesome.)

A bit more on Copycat: It'd also be cool if you could share copycat data with your friends. You could share your own copycat or the copycat data of a really awesome player. That way, Herman wouldn't have to spend hours playing as different characters so you have a whole roster to practice against. He can just work on it on his own time.

I do know that in Melee, the CPUs will attack each other whenever they're within attacking distance.

In terms of AI, the CPUs should show little resistance on the lowest skill level; Melee level 1s come to mind there. After all, it seems quite disturbing when the easiest skill level is doing tactics that are more meant to be utilized by the level 5s and harder.

In terms of the level 9s, they would deliver the most advanced tactics, and they'll punish you for trying to use slow attacks. Additionally, they'll be much more defensive.

I agree. That'd be pretty great. Also, no glaring flaws like suicidal Roy or Ness in Melee. Granted, they require some rather specific conditions, but they should still be smart enough to figure out when they're going to get themselves killed.

The only thing I really want is for the CPU's to stop ****** my ***, seriously, I can't play against 3 CPU's unless if I get really lucky.

Spoiler

I can still win with Capt. Falcon or Gannondorf, it's just that it is very irritating to do so

Brawl AI is very annoying, I prefer the SSB64/Melee one alot more, where the CPU's actually attack each other.

Now, in terms of difficulty, I dunno man, I'm pretty satisfied the way it is, since I just stink at all SSB games that I have.

I've experienced many a rage while trying to fight multiple CPU's at once. I agree, 64/Melee AI is better from that standpoint.

It just takes practice. Also, with improved AI, it would make practice against AIs actually beneficial. The AIs would help you get better instead of help you learn how to avoid their dirty tactics.

 

[BerryBomber]

I agree that CPU's hate humans. Sometimes its like playing a 1v3 team battle, but with team damage on. They will only attack you! I once died and was coming back on the platform, and a CPU had completed a Dragoon before I died. It aimed at me and shot while I was still on the platform! Seriously!?!?! Dont get me started on Final smashs too, like Link. Both other CPUs will be standing in front of him, while im on the other side of the stage. He will avoid the CPUs and come all the way across the stage to use his final smash on me!



Also, I love the idea of Copycat mode, although I can see myself making alot of funny custom AI's.
Taunter AI: Sometimes online there is that person that just sits there and taunts. It would be hilarious to see CPU's try to attack you with taunts!
Spammer AIs: Yep. Pikachu Down+B, Zelda Over+B, Kirby Down+B, Bowser Down+B, Captain Falcon B. CPUs that are as annoying as human spammers!
Sheilder AI: Uses their sheild wayyy too much, and cause themselves to break their sheilds. Just set all CPUs as Jigglypuff and you always win!
Jigglypuff Sing AI: This AI will put you to sleep, no matter the cost! That is, if the Jigglypuffs dont put themselves to sleep...

 

[Kirbunny431]

I agree that CPU's hate humans. Sometimes its like playing a 1v3 team battle, but with team damage on. They will only attack you! I once died and was coming back on the platform, and a CPU had completed a Dragoon before I died. It aimed at me and shot while I was still on the platform! Seriously!?!?! Dont get me started on Final smashs too, like Link. Both other CPUs will be standing in front of him, while im on the other side of the stage. He will avoid the CPUs and come all the way across the stage to use his final smash on me!

Indeed. I feel your pain, my friend. The CPU's are total jerks in Brawl. They will stop at nothing to ruin your day.

Also, I love the idea of Copycat mode, although I can see myself making alot of funny custom AI's.
Taunter AI: Sometimes online there is that person that just sits there and taunts. It would be hilarious to see CPU's try to attack you with taunts!
Spammer AIs: Yep. Pikachu Down+B, Zelda Over+B, Kirby Down+B, Bowser Down+B, Captain Falcon B. CPUs that are as annoying as human spammers!
Sheilder AI: Uses their sheild wayyy too much, and cause themselves to break their sheilds. Just set all CPUs as Jigglypuff and you always win!
Jigglypuff Sing AI: This AI will put you to sleep, no matter the cost! That is, if the Jigglypuffs dont put themselves to sleep...

I never thought about that.
...
IT'S BRILLIANT!

I would love pitting the Spammer AIs against one of my friends. He tends to spam sometimes because he knows it annoys me, and I would like to give him a taste of his own medicine. Those are some really fun ideas there. Now I really want Copycat AI's to happen, even though I know that it won't.

 

[BerryBomber]

I never thought about that.
...
IT'S BRILLIANT!

I would love pitting the Spammer AIs against one of my friends. He tends to spam sometimes because he knows it annoys me, and I would like to give him a taste of his own medicine. Those are some really fun ideas there. Now I really want Copycat AI's to happen, even though I know that it won't.

Indeed! Spammer AIs would be like lvl 11 CPUs!
I got another one
Confused Pokemon Trainer AI: Go Squirtle! No wait, Go Ivysaur! Nah, Go Charizard! Thats not it, Go Pikachu! Somethings wrong here...

 

[SmashChu]

I'll look at the thread more later, but I always agree with better AI. It's something games don't invest enough in.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Different AI personalities is awesome, should do it like Perfect Dark. Actually, everyone should do everything like Perfect Dark.

 

[SmashChu]

I agree Toise. I think the best way to make AI would make more ways they play, so they feel more human like. Like, some may be aggressive. Some may go for items. Some attack one player.

 

[Inawordyes]

I agree Toise. I think the best way to make AI would make more ways they play, so they feel more human like. Like, some may be aggressive. Some may go for items. Some attack one player.

A good substitute to this is that each character should have the AI act like that character would in their game of origin. Like, using your examples, Bowser would be agressive, because it's Bowser; Mario would go for the items, or Kirby as well; I can't think of a specific example for the last one, but it would probably fall into the mentality of "focus on one, and get rid of them quicker".

This would serve to more differentiate the semi-clones, because, for example, you could have Captain Falcon and Ganondorf in the same match, and instead of doing the same exact things with their similar movesets, they would fight based more on how they are within their games, and while they share moves, they wouldn't fight the same - if that makes any sense.

 

[Kirbunny431]

Different AI personalities is awesome, should do it like Perfect Dark. Actually, everyone should do everything like Perfect Dark.

That'd be really neat!

A good substitute to this is that each character should have the AI act like that character would in their game of origin. Like, using your examples, Bowser would be agressive, because it's Bowser; Mario would go for the items, or Kirby as well; I can't think of a specific example for the last one, but it would probably fall into the mentality of "focus on one, and get rid of them quicker".

This would serve to more differentiate the semi-clones, because, for example, you could have Captain Falcon and Ganondorf in the same match, and instead of doing the same exact things with their similar movesets, they would fight based more on how they are within their games, and while they share moves, they wouldn't fight the same - if that makes any sense.

That'd also be really neat! It'd make a lot of sense, too. This should totally happen.

 

[Ove]

More defense, really. As it is now, the CPU blatantly chase you and attack you when you are in attack range. They seldom use the shield (almost never in melee, at least). However, they are very good at power shielding. Too good, actually -.-'

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

More defense, really. As it is now, the CPU blatantly chase you and attack you when you are in attack range. They seldom use the shield (almost never in melee, at least). However, they are very good at power shielding. Too good, actually -.-'

The odd part is that the Melee CPUs hardly ever shield-grab, even at level 9. Brawl CPUs are very evil with that tactic, regardless of their skill level.

On the flipside though, Melee CPUs are much more prone to using their shields against projectiles on the higher skill levels, even when Fox uses his Blaster.

 

[Kirbunny431]

I've also noticed that, even though I'm spamming my Reflector as Fox or Wolf, Samus and other projectile users still fire their projectiles. Like I said before, they should have a better understanding of when something is safe and when something isn't. Like yesterday, Wario launched himself above the upper blast line with a fully-charged Wario Waft. It goes without saying that it was a stupid decision.

 

[Ove]

It isn't fun playing the CPUs, because all they do is chasing me and then jabbing when in close range. I mean, it's just tedious. It's a bad strategy and you get the impression that they are poorly programmed.

I find it rather interesting that the CPUs have their own unique gimmicks (I am mainly talking about Melee). For example, Ganondorf spams Up B, Samus uses the fully charged Power Beam a lot, Bowser likes those flames a lot etc.

I play against CPU Ganondorf a lot.

 

[Jaedrik]

Patches, it should be done through patches. What I'm getting at here is as the meta game evolves as it inevitably will after being released from the dark clutches of Sakurai and his balancing team (which obviously cannot account for such a future), they should patch in (create higher levels or even make them available) or patch up the upper levels, the difficulty curve increasing as more ATs and tactics are developed for the different characters by humans.
I like CPUs, they make me smile with all the cute ridiculous things they do.

 

[Waver]

Yeah, Brawl's AI was awful. Level 1s are still easy to beat, but they do too much for a level 1 (if you know what a mean). Level 9s are practically psychic, and they know your playstyle. Too bad there is no free for all because they only hound the player no matter what.

Melee AI targets the player too, but only when the player is winning (which is fair). AIs were fun to play against in this game; they had blindspots, the high levels were too easy but not too hard, and appealed to all kinds of players. The few problems was that they spam an attack with every character (Ganondorf's jab, Mario/Dr Mario's Tornado, ZELDA'S DOWN TILT!)

In a way SSB64 was the best because they never stalked the player all the time. They go for anyone that's close to them. They just have a terrible rolling habit, that's all. Generally, SSB64's AIs were more annoying than Melee's. But at least they know the definition of free for all.

My reccommended improvement: Make the AI like Melee, but without the spamming and targeting.

 

[jigglover]

Counter spouter: If he is a character with a counter, he pretty much uses it indefinitely. Strangely enough I sometimes beat three level 9 CPU by doing exactly this (only as Peach with Toad) the FE gangs counters are rather bad, but Toad is great!

I have a question though. After reading this thread it seems all of you have trouble beating the level 9s in Brawl!? Really!? It really isn't difficult...

 

[Phantom287]

Counter spouter: If he is a character with a counter, he pretty much uses it indefinitely. Strangely enough I sometimes beat three level 9 CPU by doing exactly this (only as Peach with Toad) the FE gangs counters are rather bad, but Toad is great!

I have a question though. After reading this thread it seems all of you have trouble beating the level 9s in Brawl!? Really!? It really isn't difficult...

Personally, I have no problem with level 9's, I can defeat them well enough. I just find their AI... spotty, having a hard time finding the right word for it.

For instance, the AI tends to be incredibly good at power shielding, a bit too good if you ask me. I should be so lucky to pull off as many power shields as the lvl 9 AI tends to.

Other times, they'll do something so brain-dead you have to wonder WTF they were thinking. Case in point, my lvl 9 Ike pursued my character outside the arena to keep me from recovering... he used aether... long story short, I survived, he didn't.

You're right about the lvl 9 cpus that have a counter, they'll usually always use it, even when it's not a good idea. I find that my lvl 9 Marth does this all the time.

 

[Ove]

Counter spouter: If he is a character with a counter, he pretty much uses it indefinitely. Strangely enough I sometimes beat three level 9 CPU by doing exactly this (only as Peach with Toad) the FE gangs counters are rather bad, but Toad is great!

I have a question though. After reading this thread it seems all of you have trouble beating the level 9s in Brawl!? Really!? It really isn't difficult...

I usually play against level 9s and I have no problems whatsoever. What part of my posts did imply that I had troubles beating them?

They are utterly stupid. Basically, you could just find a good move to spam (Marth's Fsmash, Lucas Usmash etc.) and do that. If you, like me, consider spamming against CPUs pointless and plain boring, you play normally. Even then you shouldn't have any problems because of the CPUs poor startegies.

I don't think I have ever lost against a CPU. With that being said, that doesn't prove anything about my general skills and I have no idea how well I would put up against a good player since I don't play against humans that often...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Counter spouter: If he is a character with a counter, he pretty much uses it indefinitely. Strangely enough I sometimes beat three level 9 CPU by doing exactly this (only as Peach with Toad) the FE gangs counters are rather bad, but Toad is great!

I have a question though. After reading this thread it seems all of you have trouble beating the level 9s in Brawl!? Really!? It really isn't difficult...

The Brawl level 9s are harder to fool than the Melee level 9s though. At least in Melee, the level 9s are known for abusing certain attacks, which can leave them vulnerable to your own attacks.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

The Brawl level 9s are harder to fool than the Melee level 9s though. At least in Melee, the level 9s are known for abusing certain attacks, which can leave them vulnerable to your own attacks.

Melee level 9s will also never block Kirb'y aerial down-B.

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

Melee level 9s will also never block Kirb'y aerial down-B.

Melee A.I's are more about offense rather than defense, really. Jab abuse all day.

Spoiler

Oh, and CPU Zelda's D-Tilt.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Melee A.I's are more about offense rather than defense, really. Jab abuse all day.

Spoiler

Oh, and CPU Zelda's D-Tilt.

That's not true. Luigi's is all about

Spoiler

failing at

recovery.

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

That's not true. Luigi's is all about

Spoiler

failing at

recovery.

He's suicidal...

But really though, his CPU just registers the Green Missile attack as his uppercut. For some reason, badly programmed. I never play against a Luigi CPU in Melee, not Kirby either because his down special timing is way too predictable and he doesn't bother to get back up untill it runs out. Don't get me started on CPU Yoshi's suicides with Egg Roll.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Melee A.I's are more about offense rather than defense, really. Jab abuse all day.

Spoiler

Oh, and CPU Zelda's D-Tilt.

Actually, almost all Melee level 9s are very good at blocking projectiles, even to a point that their shields can cause your projectile to backfire on you. As far as I know, only level 9 Bowser strays from that flock, as he's not well known for his shield usage; Fire Breath spamming adds to this dilemma.

 

[Sleek Media]

AI is tricky. While it would be interesting to see what the team could come up with if they invested in the AI more heavily this time around, I think it would ultimately be a detriment to the game, since all that development and testing could have gone towards more characters/stages/etc.