After 3 months of training

[Kor_Hey_1]

Hello everyone,

I am training for 3 months now, I trained hard for the 1.5 first months. Since I'm in my last year in a engineering school in France, I can't no longer train as hard as before but I will be free again soon.

So, to recap my tech skill, I'm able to do around 70% of L-cancel (thx PM to display it), can waveland consistently but have difficulties to implement it in my gameplay, can shield drop 60% in training mode but fail to do it in match. I can waveshine not so perfectly and i'm able to do double shine... I think I don't train hard enough since I am not so skill...

Since I'm not able to Shield drop consistently, I would know if there is particular moments when I have to do it and when I can juste drop with a tap down.

Now, I would know about puff match up since my friend who mains puff beat me in our last match...

In the neutral I try to be distant with the rose ball, shoot a lot of lasers. When it get close, I look for a laser or a jab then hit with a smash attack and retreat since puff is so hard to combo.

When it crouches to dodge lasers, I go in and try do dair itsince it's pretty sage if puff is grounded I guess.

The scary thing is when we trade hits when we're grounded beacause if puff grab you, you don't have much time to DI in order to not get rested... Sooooo, could anyone give me a hint about DIing up-throw rest. I know I have to tap on my stick to left or right before being in the air but I don't see it comming anytime...

This being said, my favorite stages against puff are FD and PS because platforms don't intefere with laser camp.
Dream Land isn't so bad when i'm patient enough.
Small stages are a pain because my friend likes to bair a lot so I think it's pretty difficult to approach puff in this conditions plus small stages don't allow you to shoot many lasers. I know puff die early, but when I approach directly I often get comboed hard in the air or get up throw rest...

Furhtermore, I want to know more about what I can do after a grab beacause I don't see so many option after it. What I often do is :
- On floaties : up throw->fair/bair
- On fast fallers : back throw -> regrab/nair
- F-throw -> dash attach/nair

It doesn't allow me to continue combo nor set a good position for me so I just don't use it a lot...

Thank you in advance for your help guys,

And sorry if I don't speak English very well.

 

[J⩓мє]

So, to recap my tech skill, I'm able to do around 70% of L-cancel (thx PM to display it)

Are you using Project M to practice melee? that's a very bad idea because PM has a general input buffer while melee does not. Also, giving a blind average, while it's a good metric of how far you have come, like showing yourself getting up to 70%, from what I assume is implicitly was 0% before, in 3 months is pretty cool (which I assume is why you posted it); total averages alone are not a good metric for determining where you are currently in terms of skill. That is to say, if you're missing that 30% of your L-cancels for any specific reason, figuring out and addressing that reason is of utmost importance compared to blindly attempting to increase your overall L-cancel percentage from playing more. That said, I commend your drive to improve and your progress.

Furhtermore, I want to know more about what I can do after a grab beacause I don't see so many option after it.

My main suggestion in regards of what to do out of a grab, or how to see what your options are out of a throw, is to watch VODs (youtube) of Falcos you consider better than yourself to see what they do with grabs, and what they get out of it. Pay attention to who has stage control before and after the grab/throw, the DI of the opponent after the throw, and the kinds of assumptions and gambles (ie. the mind games) the Falco and the opponent make leading up to the grab and after the throw.

However, to address the point directly, Falco's throws by and large do not have true (guaranteed) follow ups, and those that he does have are based on specific DI inputs by the opponent. With improper DI where Falcos trick the opponent into DIing towards him, or to punish the opponent's bad DI, Falco can do backthrow regrabs or forward throw follow ups (in both cases mostly where the opponent is DIing in towards Falco), and if the opponent DI's an up-throw forwards Falco can get a flutter kick (forward air) follow up attack. Against Puff, if you know that the puff isn't going to tech a down throw, the down throw launches the puff back up for a regrab or aerial follow up option (though I think they might be able to DI out of a regrab regardless of teching). In certain situations, like facing the ledge as close as possible to the ledge, puff has no opportunity to tech and has to DI correctly otherwise you can just keep down throw regrabbing her (similar to what westballz did here or what falcomaster3000 did here). Falco also has a down throw regrab on Fox in NTSC, but that is also DI dependent (fox can di down and shine you), and since you're in France you're almost definitely playing PAL.
Falco's grabs are generally used to secure a positional advantage for Falco, for mind games, or for simply keeping the opponent honest in their fundamentals (Falco players have a habit of pillaring or shine pressuring shield instead of grabbing, by introducing the threat of a grab option often enough Falcos can prevent their opponent from feeling safe in shield on that principle, drastically increasing the pressure on the opponent to commit to an out of shield option).

It doesn't allow me to continue combo nor set a good position for me so I just don't use it a lot...

A grab can always give you an advantageous position, even if they don't put you in a situation to combo. Grab still beats shield in a classic rock-paper-scissors sense and is still a viable and important part of the option spread to have in order to keep your opponent honest and uncertain of what you're going to do. As an example, here's a very recent set between westballz and hax$ notice that wes uses and maintains the threat of a grab as an option, and the situations and setups where he uses it to great effect, and the potential reasons, benefits, and risks affecting why he might be going for that option when he does.

Since I'm not able to Shield drop consistently, I would know if there is particular moments when I have to do it and when I can juste drop with a tap down.

There's a category of applied shield dropping techniques, called Shai dropping, which trick the game into transitioning the player from shield into fall-through as fast as possible in a few situations. I think that's what you're referring to when you say 'just drop with a tap down'. This is the thread on Shai dropping.
In terms of techniques to cause shield drops to happen, this video covers shield drops in all the current smash incarnations while this video covers it specifically for melee.

As English does not seem to be your first language, if these tutorial videos or links do not work for you, let me know, and I'll try and find other means of conveying the information, or a way of translating elements of what they discuss for you, as to prevent language from being a barrier for your (or others') ability to truly enjoy playing or improving at Melee.

 

[Kor_Hey_1]

Are you using Project M to practice melee? that's a very bad idea because PM has a general input buffer while melee does not. Also, giving a blind average, while it's a good metric of how far you have come, like showing yourself getting up to 70%, from what I assume is implicitly was 0% before, in 3 months is pretty cool (which I assume is why you posted it); total averages alone are not a good metric for determining where you are currently in terms of skill. That is to say, if you're missing that 30% of your L-cancels for any specific reason, figuring out and addressing that reason is of utmost importance compared to blindly attempting to increase your overall L-cancel percentage from playing more. That said, I commend your drive to improve and your progress.

No I don't, I just play the two games and use the PM data as an indicator.
It was 0% of l-cancel before, I don't know if 70% now is a good progress in this amount of time but it's better than nothing. 30% are missing, I think the reason is that I focused on SHFFL so I press L right after attack so my l-cancel are messed after a full jump aerial. I think 85% is a vital minimum on melee to be a good player.

On the other tips I thank you, I don't have much more to say.

I don't like too pay very close atention to decisions when I watch videos because players have so much different playstyles. I think you have to watch a lot of different falco to find which is closest to your playstyle but since I don't have much time to just play the game I don't watch so much vid... I'll see those you send to me and pay close attention.

Don't worry about me being unable to understand English in a video, I can't speak so well but am able to understand it.

I hope my English isn't so bad,

Thanks a lot and enjoy that cool game =D

 

[GenNyan]

For 3 months in, 70% L cancel rate is fine, just keep on working to improve it. Shield dropping isn't super important for beginners, you should definitely prioritize waveshining.

When it crouches to dodge lasers, I go in and try do dair itsince it's pretty sage if puff is grounded I guess.

The thing is, puff can simply wavedash backwards and grab you if you're predictable with this. You can mix it up by using really low lasers, overshooting the dair, or dash dancing to bait out a response.

The scary thing is when we trade hits when we're grounded beacause if puff grab you, you don't have much time to DI in order to not get rested... Sooooo, could anyone give me a hint about DIing up-throw rest. I know I have to tap on my stick to left or right before being in the air but I don't see it comming anytime...

You have to predict the grab beforehand in order to DI it. Puff's Upthrow is too fast to react to, so whenever you think puff is about to grab you, hold left or right to dash out (which also inputs DI if you get grabbed). You should ideally hold the stick instead of tapping.

Also your autocancel bair is really good in this matchup, especially considering you seem to play a more defensive style.

 

[FE_Hector]

In the neutral I try to be distant with the rose ball, shoot a lot of lasers. When it get close, I look for a laser or a jab then hit with a smash attack and retreat since puff is so hard to combo.

Now, I will preface this post by saying that I don't have a TON of experience in the MU, but I played against the guy who won the NC Arcadian Vol 2 the same day that he won it during friendlies, and I feel that it gave me some nice insight into the MU. Here's what my gameplan was.

If approaching with dair from high up, mix up DJ use and whether or not I FF because dair is useful, but Puff's uair is capable of beating dair. I agree with dair to beat crouching underneath lasers.

Most of the time though, i actually elected to take a different approach-- a grounded one. I KNOW that this really doesn't follow classic Puff MU mindset, but it can work. Here's how I worked it.
1.) Start with lasers from a distance to force her to come in.
2.) Once she's at a range where she can easily punish mindless lasers, stop shooting. Instead, directly challenge her space with AC bairs (mix up whether or not you're going in, staying in place, or fading away). Especially if she's above you, bair can pretty easily trade with hers, and if she's above you, it can actually outright beat it out.
If she decides to go too high above you, WD in and utilt to punish. Followup as you choose.

Yes, she is hard to combo, but if you just settle for something simple like dair nair or dair shine bair, you can pretty quickly rack up damage. Don't go for the smash attack because you view it as more damage. Two or three hit combo strings can actually be way better in terms of damage, even if it isn't obvious immediately.

Vs Rest: Obviously everybody knows what to do in terms of DI, but in my experience, not everybody knows how to punish it. I have NOT looked to make sure about what's optimal, but here's what I've been doing with some degree of success.
If she whiffs a rest at a lot of %s, just walk up to her and charge fsmash so as to get the straight upwards hitbox. It's got considerable KB. If she's at high % and you feel like it, you can make it so only the tippy toes of your fsmash hit her for another fun kill option. I find it funny.
If you hit the DI on Rest but still die and she's at 70+%, dtilt will almost always kill. Sometimes the close-range fsmash can lead to some nice janky combos, though. Like I said, I haven't tested enough.
Shine shine kills off the top are always an option, but a very difficult one to be sure.


Re: the rest of your post, it sounds like you're doing pretty well overall. It's also really good that you're realizing the fact that you won't play as well against other people as you do in practice. That's kinda just how the game goes. Not sure if somebody else said this already or not, but executing tech isn't always the difficult part. It's executing it consistently, executing it well, and executing it when you need it that's the difficult part.

 

[Kor_Hey_1]

The thing is, puff can simply wavedash backwards and grab you if you're predictable with this. You can mix it up by using really low lasers, overshooting the dair, or dash dancing to bait out a response.

I don't mention mindgame but obviously I don't just rush in. WD back to nair, dash daning to punish are good option too. I just explained my global gameplan.

You have to predict the grab beforehand in order to DI it. Puff's Upthrow is too fast to react to, so whenever you think puff is about to grab you, hold left or right to dash out (which also inputs DI if you get grabbed). You should ideally hold the stick instead of tapping.

Also your autocancel bair is really good in this matchup, especially considering you seem to play a more defensive style.

I asked about up throw rest because I watched the vid where m2k get destroyed by HB in grand finals at paragon and people said in the comments "Hey learn how to DI" so I thought there was some method ^^
I like bair too. It's a good killing move and it's pretty safe.

Now, I will preface this post by saying that I don't have a TON of experience in the MU, but I played against the guy who won the NC Arcadian Vol 2 the same day that he won it during friendlies, and I feel that it gave me some nice insight into the MU. Here's what my gameplan was.

If approaching with dair from high up, mix up DJ use and whether or not I FF because dair is useful, but Puff's uair is capable of beating dair. I agree with dair to beat crouching underneath lasers.

Most of the time though, i actually elected to take a different approach-- a grounded one. I KNOW that this really doesn't follow classic Puff MU mindset, but it can work. Here's how I worked it.
1.) Start with lasers from a distance to force her to come in.
2.) Once she's at a range where she can easily punish mindless lasers, stop shooting. Instead, directly challenge her space with AC bairs (mix up whether or not you're going in, staying in place, or fading away). Especially if she's above you, bair can pretty easily trade with hers, and if she's above you, it can actually outright beat it out.
If she decides to go too high above you, WD in and utilt to punish. Followup as you choose.

Yes, she is hard to combo, but if you just settle for something simple like dair nair or dair shine bair, you can pretty quickly rack up damage. Don't go for the smash attack because you view it as more damage. Two or three hit combo strings can actually be way better in terms of damage, even if it isn't obvious immediately.

Vs Rest: Obviously everybody knows what to do in terms of DI, but in my experience, not everybody knows how to punish it. I have NOT looked to make sure about what's optimal, but here's what I've been doing with some degree of success.
If she whiffs a rest at a lot of %s, just walk up to her and charge fsmash so as to get the straight upwards hitbox. It's got considerable KB. If she's at high % and you feel like it, you can make it so only the tippy toes of your fsmash hit her for another fun kill option. I find it funny.
If you hit the DI on Rest but still die and she's at 70+%, dtilt will almost always kill. Sometimes the close-range fsmash can lead to some nice janky combos, though. Like I said, I haven't tested enough.
Shine shine kills off the top are always an option, but a very difficult one to be sure.


Re: the rest of your post, it sounds like you're doing pretty well overall. It's also really good that you're realizing the fact that you won't play as well against other people as you do in practice. That's kinda just how the game goes. Not sure if somebody else said this already or not, but executing tech isn't always the difficult part. It's executing it consistently, executing it well, and executing it when you need it that's the difficult part.

I had a similar gameplan, I just don't try bair because I fear a DBZ. Since puff has a lot of air mobility, if you're off stage after the trade you're pretty much like dead. I'll try it next time.
When puff is above : WD in to up-tilt looks a pretty good option.

I'll train against puff for small combo. Last tme I really trained against it, I played fox but since I don't have much time to train, I feel more comfortable with falco.

To punish a rest, a often choose F-smash, from very close when puff is in center stage and with the tipper of falco's foot when puff is near the edge.

Yeah, doing tech skill middle of a serious match is hard... I don't play against real people often so it doesn't help. France is pretty dead in term of smash community and I can't travel a lot because of studies.

I better at theory than practice...

Thanks guys for your replies.

 

[FE_Hector]

I understand not being able to play against people too much. My bro is working out issues with his sleep schedule, so we only really get to play in the mornings over the weekend. Hopefully I'll be able to drive come November, though. Good luck with Falco! Don't get frustrated. He's definitely rough. And as far as trading goes, it doesn't matter until you hit 50%, and if she's at ~the same damage, then it doesn't even really matter. Just account for the fact that you die a bit earlier than her unless you get a nice double dip.

 

[Kor_Hey_1]

Falco is rough but I think he's definitly the most entertaining character to play. My friend train for the same time as me but plays puff (and marth as secondary). I think life is easier for him...
I thought about some other thing that I would like to know. When marth start up-tilt to up-tilt to... you, what direction is the best to DI. If you DI in, I think you can be out of range sooner but marth can just turn around and continue to combo, so I usually DI out but **** I get up-tilted like 3/4 times in a row...
I've another problem against puff, it's the edgeguard. I don't know what to do when puff is under the ledge and trying to go to it because it uses pound so if I grab the ledge, he hit me and I'm in the air so it's bad. If I just stay on stage I can't dair when it approaches the ledge because pound's hitbox lasts so long... Have you any tips?

 

[FE_Hector]

I've another problem against puff, it's the edgeguard. I don't know what to do when puff is under the ledge and trying to go to it because it uses pound so if I grab the ledge, he hit me and I'm in the air so it's bad. If I just stay on stage I can't dair when it approaches the ledge because pound's hitbox lasts so long... Have you any tips?

If you have Puff below the stage, you can either grab the ledge right before she does and force her to airdodge (which you can punish), go for a YOLO dair at the edge, or just give her back stage if you really feel like it and be happy with stage control. Part of the issue here sounds like you haven't put any work into your invincibility refreshes (firebird stall or shine firebird stall are the main ones), so make sure you focus on those eventually. After 3 months, it's not super necessary.

When marth start up-tilt to up-tilt to... you, what direction is the best to DI. If you DI in, I think you can be out of range sooner but marth can just turn around and continue to combo, so I usually DI out but **** I get up-tilted like 3/4 times in a row...

You see... the issue with Marth's utilt is that it is actually comprised of like 8 different hitboxes, each with tipper, sourspot, and an intermediate portion of them, so you kinda have to guess for dear life on this front. Generally, DI up and either in or out depending on the situation is a good idea, but getting caught in utilt strings definitely sucks. You should get better at avoiding those situations as time goes on.

 

[Kor_Hey_1]

Hi,
I totally forgot to answer this days...
I had time to train invicibility refresh. I am not reliable with firebird stall but shine firebird stall is ok. I have to test it against a human.

Last time a played against marth I did pretty well with mixing up laser/dair/nair/shine appraoch. Combo game on Marth with falco is sick. Things are harder against puff. I do well on FD and pokemon stadium but things are hard on other stages, especially on FoD...

With so little time to train I think my tech skill isn't so bad. I have to find a training mate to better understand approach/mind game/reaction.

Getting slowly good with everyone's tips.

Thak you everyone.

 

[FE_Hector]

Hi,
I totally forgot to answer this days...
I had time to train invicibility refresh. I am not reliable with firebird stall but shine firebird stall is ok. I have to test it against a human.

Last time a played against marth I did pretty well with mixing up laser/dair/nair/shine appraoch. Combo game on Marth with falco is sick. Things are harder against puff. I do well on FD and pokemon stadium but things are hard on other stages, especially on FoD...

With so little time to train I think my tech skill isn't so bad. I have to find a training mate to better understand approach/mind game/reaction.

Getting slowly good with everyone's tips.

Thak you everyone.

Provided you're consistent with it and still keep invincibility throughout (admittedly difficult), there's no real "right" stall between firebird and shine firebird.

 

[comics]

You have Project M so that must mean you have a Wii. I recommend you getting 20XX after installing BootMii and using Nintendont or Dios Mios. You can see when you miss the l-cancel with 20XX and much more. Not to mention Project M is actually different in a lot of ways in mechanics.

I remember hearing PPMD saying a long time ago that
Fthrow:
Low percents up air
Mid percents nair or dair
high percents dair.

If they miss their tech you can downthrow puff near the edge and techchase her using things like fsmash dsmash dash attack or dtilt.

Good luck!

Oh, also on spacies backthrow doesn't regrab unless they dont DI properly. Up throw is good and Falco's go-to grab pretty much in any MU.

What you could do on spacies if they burn their double jump when you fthrow them off stage:
Fthrow off, laser, then wait standing by the ledge and dair. It won't even always work but you can do a cheesy gimp on people if they aren't paying attention.
Also there are things like back throw fsmash and stuff like that. A video on cheesy Falco grabs is on SSBM Tutorial's youtube channel. This stuff only works sometimes. Don't rely on them if they aren't working.

 

[Kor_Hey_1]

comics I totally forgot to answer...

SO I can play with a friend 'cause I have a week of vacation =D

Concerning the throws, mixing up is really cool. I did a grab->up-throw->back-throw->up-throw once because he was not prepared.

I did a lot better against a puff main. I mixed up laser and dair/nair approach. I also did better à edge guarding and dealing with pound.

I didn't trained so much but with the bit of training plus smashboards's advices, I think it's enough to get better.

I look forward to have to to train more.

Falco is such a good character, I think he fits my playstyle