Aerial B Reverse?

[NQuad1Zero]

This may have been covered somewhere already, but I'd like some confirmation/knowledge about how this happens:

Ive seen many youtube videos where out of UpB while recovering high, they like face away from the stage and pulling out a grenade (Thus a B Reverse), and it seems to like push themselves more towards the stage. How come when I attempt this, the B reverse carries the momentum to where Im facing and I instead drift offstage? Is there some more inputs to this which Im not aware of?

 

[cisyphus]

This is the difference between a B Reverse and a Recoil Special. The terms are really foggy and sometimes used interchangeably, but essentially:
B Reverse will maintain your momentum but reverse the direction you're facing.
Recoil Special will reverse your momentum and reverse the direction you're facing.

As for the situation you mention, I'm frankly rather confused as a B Reverse is the proper movement option in most situations, given that the Recoil will send you back off stage. The only time it'd be useful is if you were moving yourself off-stage (read: not in hitstun) and you wanted to get back, which again doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If you could provide a youtube video of what you're describing, it would help immensely.

 

[NQuad1Zero]

how do u attempt either one?
I think what Im doing is pulling off this "recoil special" which I have never heard of, but thats what I thought the B reverse is...?

Just from this video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT2Ex6trW3c
from 1:17, where snake is nearly at the top blast zone, Prof Pro UpBs, then cancels it with what looks like a B reverse (he faces the opposite direction to when he was UpBing, and he pulls out a grenade whilst keeping the momentum FOWARD towards the stage.)
then IMMEDIATELY, he gets hit my Zamus' UpB, and then when Snake does the B reverse this time, his momentum appear to be reversed (as he was sent flying to the top right, then suddenly his B reverse momentum is pushing him to the left)
This B Reverse is also seen at 1:29 immediately after Snake pops off the C4 and then pulls a grenade and reverses his momentum direction.

Theres a few more examples from that clip but What Im trying to say here is, I keep doing the B Reverse which drifts me the other way. How do I do the first version where out of UpB I keep my momentum at the same direction I was facing when snake UpBs whilst facing backwards against the stage?

 

[cisyphus]

SECTION 1

B Reverse changes direction, but does not change momentum, and it is performed by completing the control stick input (i.e. the input itself as well as returning the stick to neutral) and then inputting the Special input. For example, when Snake is moving to the right, completing a left control stick input followed by a neutral special input will reverse the direction Snake is facing (so that he is now facing left), retain his rightward momentum, and initiate the Grenade special.

Recoil Special (also mistakenly called a B-Reverse, also correctly called a wavebounce) does not change direction, but does change momentum, and it is performed by completing the special input and then inputting the control stick input immediately afterward. For example, when Snake is moving to the right, completing your side B special followed by a left control stick input will cause Snake to recoil special, meaning he will maintain his direction, but his momentum will be reversed to a leftward momentum.

Essentially, you're doing the control stick input at the exact wrong time.

Opposite Control Stick input before the Special will result in a B Reverse.
Opposite Control Stick input at the same time as the Special will result in a B Reverse Side-B
Opposite Control Stick input after the Special will result in a Recoil Special / Wavebounce.

Additionally, the B Reverse seems to me to be far more lenient on the timing because you can tap the opposite direction long before the special input, and so long as there is no other control stick input between the two, it should reverse your special. I'd have to test this more extensively, but it's not exactly critical when you can just do it fast. The Wavebounce has to be done very quickly after the special, so it's honestly pretty phenomenal that you're able to do it so consistently, especially with neutral B (only upB is a harder input IMO).

SECTION 2

The 1:29 example does look a little odd to me, so I'll play around with this a little bit (I need to practice wavebounces anyway now that I've figured out what's going on with them!) and get back to you.

I've got something else wrong here I guess, because that 1:29 thing is also a Recoil special, but it's also a B-reverse, so there's some way to do both simultaneously. I can do this with UpB somewhat consistently by doing a Half-circle turn, starting with my dash direction, then the up direction and then turning to the direction I want to travel with up b. I'm unsure of how to transfer that ability to the neutral b, though.

Using B-sticking, I came up with this:
XXXXX//Left Control | Right Control || Left to Right ||| Right to left
Left C-Stick//Normal Side-B | Wavebounce || Reverse + Wave |||B-Reverse
Right C-Stick//Wavebounce | Normal Side-B || B-Reverse ||| Reverse + Wave

So: given that the left/right C-stick will be the special input, your control stick vs. your special inputs relate like this:

The Same: Side-B
Different: Wavebounce
From Same to Different: Reverse + Wavebounce
From Different to Same: Reverse

As for Grenades (and neutral special moves in general) I can only guess that Prof (knowing he doesn't B-Stick) uses the non-intuitive direction-detection of the game's engine to input a direction while not inputting a side special. To test this, tilt your control stick very slightly so that Snake starts walking. If you get a side-b, work it very slowly back to center until you start getting a grenade. It's just outside the 45 degree angles (which result in side-b). You can compare this to tilts, which require a far smaller X axis change to perform.

This is getting really technical, stop me please.

Also would not endorse the use of a Special c-stick, especially if you're really accustomed to the smash c-stick, because you cannot throw grenades with b-stick, on top of not being able to do retreating aerials, quick aerials oos, SHFFLs, et al. This is a really tight input window, but if you just needed to face the opposite direction while moving toward the stage will recovering, the very first section of this post will help you do that. If you want to do what Prof is doing at 1:29, you'll need to sit down and tinker with this mechanic for a good hour, 'cause I can't get it very well at all in my 15 minutes of free time.

 

[NQuad1Zero]

Thanks for the huge reply and the helpful input.
I've ALWAYS thought a B Reverse was Pressing B then a direction key Immediately after. I always thought wavebouncing was something else.

I used to always play around with Marth and Ike's B wavebounces (in brawl mainly, brawl and smash 4 Shield breaker seemed to do more impact than PM and Melee) so I can basically wavebounce on command so to speak. I've never even HEARD of B reversal being done as the direction key => reset to neutral position => B. Ill go test this out immediately.

Are you sure what youre saying is true for what Prof Pro was doing at that 1:29-1:32ish segment? Didn't he just input B => Opposite direction after he blew up the C4? Because Im sorry if you spent alot of effort into typing it, but I really didnt understand most, if not all, of your Section 2 post.

EDIT: Waoo! The B reverse actually works! Omg in my 1 year of casual Brawl playing, 5 months of casual PM playing and like 2 months of competitive PM playing I never knew the Reverse direction input => B even worked! I always thought wavebouncing was the B reverse!

 

[cisyphus]

I'm pretty positive on it, yeah. That wasn't just a B-Reverse, because his momentum AND his direction changed. You can certainly get those sort of inputs on accident by trying to B-Reverse (which very well could've been what happened) but that's not good enough in my mind.
As an update, I've been able to replicate the Prof Pro video with the wavebounce inputs (Neutral Special then, control stick smash in direction opposite of travel). It seems to always induce both the reversal and the momentum recoil, so I dunno. Wavebounce grenade is what Prof does.

ALSO: Everybody needs to start doing walljump tech off of C4 into Wavebounce Cypher. It's suuuuuuuuuper good.