About secondaries

[Carystus]

Hello there! I have been reading this forum for a while and learn a lot on how to improve my Samus. I am starting to do tournaments of ranked battles. I still love Samus but I am looking for good secondary picks for very hard machups. I have a couple of characters I have a good feeling with but I need to train a bit before using them in serious battles. Currently I could go ZSS, Mario, Link, Bowser Jr., Pikachu, Ryu. I was wondering what were your thoughts on the matter. What would be a good character to complete Samus' flaws?

 

[Xygonn]

Pikachu is good because pikachu is a terrible MU for Samus. Pikachu plays well against other small characters. ESAM pockets Samus for the Luigi MU and he mains Pikachu in Smash 4.
I don't particularly like ZSS, but she does help cover some bad MUs just because she is so much faster than Samus.
I have been working hard on my Ryu. Ryu has great MUs against some of the top tiers (particularly sheik, diddy, captain falcon, sonic). He is trash against zoners IMO, but we have a pretty good MU against every zoner except ROB, IMO. He struggles against characters with a good multihit game because it makes FA a less powerful tool.
I would avoid using Link. I just think he is bad in Smash 4. I know people think Samus is bad too, but in terms of my overall opinion of characters in the game, Link and Zelda are perhaps the only two with very bad qualities and no tools to cover them up with.
A skilled mario can beat any sheik. JK, but mario is a good all around character. Cape is the best gimp tool in the game once you get good with it.
Bowser Jr. is pretty hard to use. I used to play him more, but he has such a different rhythm than other characters, I sorta gave him up. It's hard enough dealing with Samus' very different play style. I don't know what MUs he would cover for us.

 

[JAZZ_]

I would avoid using Link. I just think he is bad in Smash 4. I know people think Samus is bad too, but in terms of my overall opinion of characters in the game, Link and Zelda are perhaps the only two with very bad qualities and no tools to cover them up with.

Have you ever watched Izaw play Link? I think like Samus you have to peel back the cookie cutter gameplay style of most characters to find the gems in tough to main characters.

 

[Xygonn]

Have you ever watched Izaw play Link? I think like Samus you have to peel back the cookie cutter gameplay style of most characters to find the gems in tough to main characters.

Izaw is great with link but there is no making up for a frame 7 jab.

 

[JAZZ_]

Izaw is great with link but there is no making up for a frame 7 jab.

his newest guide had an interesting jab segment. I dont see link as terrible. I think he's extremely difficult to learn to play super competitively but so is Samus I feel.
As a secondary for tough MU, probably not the best choice. But he's not bad and is fun to use.

I secondary him for funsies.

 

[Afro Smash]

Well if we look at the consensus on our worst MUs (credit Xygonn)

Worst MUs:
Pikachu
Sheik
Fox
Megaman
Mario
Sonic
ZSS
Falco
Olimar
Diddy

Luigi does well Vs Falco/Pikachu/Fox/Olimar goes even at least with Diddy/Sonic/Mega Man/Mario loses to ZSS/Sheik
Bowser's Tough Guy could potentially work well vs Mega Man's pellets?
I don't know if anyone has a good MU vs ZSS/Sheik/Mario

 

[Xygonn]

his newest guide had an interesting jab segment. I dont see link as terrible. I think he's extremely difficult to learn to play super competitively but so is Samus I feel.
As a secondary for tough MU, probably not the best choice. But he's not bad and is fun to use.

I secondary him for funsies.

I know I shouldn't be negative, but Link has 12 tournament wins on 450 appearances in the smash 4 reported brackets. Samus has 9 on 199. If you work the fractions, neither of those are great odds. Link has an even steeper hill to climb than Samus, and I wouldn't wish that level of technical skill and knowledge on anyone looking for a secondary. That is part of the beauty of using Mario or ZSS out of the characters listed, those are easier to use as secondaries.

 

[JAZZ_]

I know I shouldn't be negative, but Link has 12 tournament wins on 450 appearances in the smash 4 reported brackets. Samus has 9 on 199. If you work the fractions, neither of those are great odds. Link has an even steeper hill to climb than Samus, and I wouldn't wish that level of technical skill and knowledge on anyone looking for a secondary. That is part of the beauty of using Mario or ZSS out of the characters listed, those are easier to use as secondaries.

Well I understand that. I must love learning the technical skill for multiple tough characters. low tier warrior for life.

 

[❤ Nikodemus05]

I'd use ZSS as she tends to cover some of our awful MUs and you're still keeping the pride of playing Samus.

 

[Carystus]

I'd use ZSS as she tends to cover some of our awful MUs and you're still keeping the pride of playing Samus.

I like the way you think.

 

[Zaprong]

I have Roy as a second main (wouldnt call either a secondary).

Roy is great, because of his great frame data, he can actually fight people like Fox and Falco way more easy. While Roy has terrible MUs like Dedede, Samus can do good against
them

 

[Xygonn]

Well if we look at the consensus on our worst MUs (credit Xygonn)

Worst MUs:
Pikachu
Sheik
Fox
Megaman
Mario
Sonic
ZSS
Falco
Olimar
Diddy

Luigi does well Vs Falco/Pikachu/Fox/Olimar goes even at least with Diddy/Sonic/Mega Man/Mario loses to ZSS/Sheik
Bowser's Tough Guy could potentially work well vs Mega Man's pellets?
I don't know if anyone has a good MU vs ZSS/Sheik/Mario

So I found Game and Watch really covers some of our weaknesses. GW has a pretty good MU against Pikachu, Fox, Falco and Mario, a really good MU against ZSS, and is basically a hard counter to megaman. His sheik MU isn't bad and you can still fill buckets on upb recoveries that sheik has to use. The olimar, diddy and sonic matchups are all maneagable. I recently broke 50% win rate (overall) with GW on for glory.

 

[DanishButrCookies]

I don't completely agree with that list of bad match-ups.
Fox & Falco
I think Samus absolutely bodies spacies, I have never lost to one on FG and in tournament play. I pray that I vs them all the time because it literally becomes combo video material. There are just too many ways to knock them off stage and keep them there. Combine down tilt, angled forward tilt, up tilt, down air, and missiles and this character cannot come back, horizontally or vertically. I've even baited the shine with a missile and punished the ending lag with a charge shot kill. Not to mention that Fox mains love auto canceled aerials into up smash, but if they hit shield you just OOS Up-B.
Sonic
This is where a lot of debate can arise, as I really can't see how this is a bad matchup at all, mostly because I utilize bombs in the neutral more then most. There are tons of ways to stop a Sonic's approach... I can't see it.
I somewhat agree with the others in the list, but let me make my own and see if you agree.

• Rosalina - With Luma being her shield and the absorb, projectiles are a myth. While up-tilt and dash attack can quickly get away from Luma, this matchup tends to be just me getting small damage while Rosalina runs away, and then Luma getting a lot of damage when she's back. It's a slow paced matchup, where a lot of unfavorable trading occurs.
• Olimar - Nuff said, the Pikmin are his guardian angels.
• Shiek - Top tier
• Pikachu - Off stage game is too good, quick attack and disjointed hitboxes, I don't get many combos while the pikachu absolutely goes to town. It is very hard to punish Pikachu with Samus.
• ZSS - She is just better... Unfortunately. Better punishes on many things, edge guarding against her is hard, and edge guarding as her is fast and effective.
• Lucario - This is debatable, but I believe that this is indeed a bad matchup. It is hard to kill as Samus, and when Lucario gets to higher percents the advantage is lost. Aura edge guarding, throw combos, and that damn recovery makes this an odd but bad matchup.
• Metaknight - Debatable, but I find that Metaknight is just too fast and proficient in the air, it becomes hard to punish him and if something is whiffed, a dash attack is all it takes to start an inescapable 40+% combo. Also dropping a nair off stage is so good.

These are matchups I consider at least 65% in the other characters favor. When I say this, I mean when both play at a professional level. There is plenty of room for debate but this is what I feel.

As for secondaries, I use Dedede. I find that when characters that can get in on Samus make things difficult, he does a great job of keeping them out, simply said.

 

[White_Pointer]

I keep a Yoshi as my secondary. He seems to cover most of Samus' bad matchups pretty well, although Rosa is still an issue.

 

[Annihilat®]

I use one for all MUs. Samus beats everyone.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

I keep a Yoshi as my secondary. He seems to cover most of Samus' bad matchups pretty well, although Rosa is still an issue.

Falcon

 

[Xygonn]

A few weeks in and I'm still really digging G&W. Lots of combos. Kinda a tough neutral, but he has the mobility to run until opportunity presents itself. Sometimes you just have to be patient and punish. Best desperation move in the game too. You can turn a match around with a lucky judgment even if you are just plain worse.

 

[White_Pointer]

Falcon

I don't find the Falcon matchup that bad for Samus actually. I find it pretty even, or at worst maybe 45:55. I beat more Falcons than I lose to, so I don't believe I need a secondary for Falcon.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

I don't find the Falcon matchup that bad for Samus actually. I find it pretty even, or at worst maybe 45:55. I beat more Falcons than I lose to, so I don't believe I need a secondary for Falcon.

You said Rosa still is an issue, that is why I suggested Falcon. He does really well against Rosa imo. Easy rushdown, gets rid of Luma easily, and confirmed Dthrow to Knee? Oh yas.

 

[White_Pointer]

You said Rosa still is an issue, that is why I suggested Falcon. He does really well against Rosa imo. Easy rushdown, gets rid of Luma easily, and confirmed Dthrow to Knee? Oh yas.

Oh right, sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you were meaning that Falcon is a bad matchup for Samus so I needed a secondary for it. My bad, thanks for clarifying.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

Oh right, sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you were meaning that Falcon is a bad matchup for Samus so I needed a secondary for it. My bad, thanks for clarifying.

No problem. Glad to clarify.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

Oh yeah, I also secondary Sheik. I never said that. I do pocket Falcon though for any MU that I feel I'd enjoy more with him. Such as Rosalina & Luma.