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A thought concerning advanced techs in Brawl.

NESSBOUNDER

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OK, so Brawl isn't quite as technical as Melee was, people have accepted that by now, however, I've been thinking that it's not all doom and gloom for the competitive Smashers out there.

One thing we have to remember is this: In Brawl, we have a lot of very unique movesets this time around. We have Pokemon Trainer who is 3 characters in one, we have Zero Suit Samus who starts the match surrounded by throwing items. We have Wario who has the ability to create a special item every time he uses his >B. We have characters like ROB and Lucario who actually have aerial moves that change their acceleration and aerial trajectory.

In Melee, Jigglypuff's "wall of pain" and Ness's "Double Jump Cancel" were considered advanced techniques, even though they were character specific. Now in Brawl, we have a lot more variety in terms of character possibilities. Eventually, there will be a lot more character-specific advanced techniques to take the place of the universal ones such as wavedashing and l-canceling.

Over at the Lucas boards, we've already found a way to use his PK Fire as a means of retreating safely from an opponent while simultaneously harassing them with an annoying projectile. Likewise, it's only a matter of time before the ROB users realise that his aerial propulsion attacks will allow him to perform very effective WoP maneuvers from a short hop.

All in all, my point is that it's not so bad. Brawl will still have lots of depth. It's just that this time it lies mainly within the characters themselves. We have to play this game and dig out all of these little gems over time, just like Melee.

There is a silver lining on the cloud, I really hope we all focus on the positive things and work to make Brawl into a great competitive experience for everyone.
 

veil222

Smash Journeyman
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There are alot of thread like this, I really think your post would be better off adding to one of them, not having a page of it's own.
 

Sanji

Smash Apprentice
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Nov 19, 2007
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dont listen to people who hate on ur thread dude, u have a very good point and changed my perspective and approach towards getting godly at brawl and you are absolutely 100% right.

think about it... in melee if you could wavedash and L cancel, you could be decent with every character in the game.

this guys smart
 

veil222

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Messages
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Sanji, half the roster was useless in tournaments. There are already threads just like this... why don't you read one of those? There's a lot more discussion on the topic already in those.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Sorry. I couldn't really find a topic that was dedicated to this prospect. Most of them are just about advanced techs in general, and weren't focusing on CHARACTER-SPECIFIC advanced techs.
 

veil222

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pichu, bowser, mewtwo, luigi, pikachu, kirby, zelda, roy, DK, yoshi, mario, dr mario, and game and watch are all generally regarded as characters that don't make it in tournaments where the people are actually skilled. This isn't just my personal opinion, it's the general consensus of the people that post on the smash forums. I'm not saying that you'll never see one of those characters win a tournament, I'm saying that the level of skill it would take to be good enough with one of those characters is so much that if you had spend the same time practicing with falco or marth, you'd already be winning tournaments.
 

veil222

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NESS, I see what you're saying, but I really do think this message would be put to better use adding on to a topic about the general techs, because character specific tech add into the equation for those too. If you want to talk about the techs specifically, that seems like stuff that would go in the character threads.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Eh. Sorry. It'd just in the character forums, we aren't fussing over how lack of advanced techs will make the game suck, we're fussing over the characters. The general boards are really where most of the whining is coming from.

I simply felt that this issue needed more focus and deserved its own topic. If I was wrong, then please lock and delete, Mods.
 

Sanji

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pichu, bowser, mewtwo, luigi, pikachu, kirby, zelda, roy, DK, yoshi, mario, dr mario, and game and watch are all generally regarded as characters that don't make it in tournaments where the people are actually skilled. This isn't just my personal opinion, it's the general consensus of the people that post on the smash forums. I'm not saying that you'll never see one of those characters win a tournament, I'm saying that the level of skill it would take to be good enough with one of those characters is so much that if you had spend the same time practicing with falco or marth, you'd already be winning tournaments.

ok this proves you dont know nothin about competitive smash players

bowser- gimpyfish
mewtwo- taj
luigi- kamaster
kirby - kirbykid
ive seen some good DK's and pikachu's (chu)
yoshi- gabe (straight) / Fumi
Mario - Eggz
Dr. Mario - bob$
 

Endless Nightmares

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This thread is just fine how it is and where it is =P I think that guy's just trying to ruin the thread or something.

I agree though, there's a lot of potential to unlock in this game. Did you know that Lucario's attacks become stronger as his percentage increases? =O
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Yeah. Mario, Dr. Mario, Pikachu and Luigi are often used in tournaments...they're mid to high tier characters.

And YES I KNOW, ISN'T IT COOL? Lucario is really shaping up to be something special. Don't anyone dare try to attack him with projectiles either, lololol!!
 

Arteen

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Unless a mod (not veil) says otherwise, this topic is fine.

On topic: I agree with OP.
 

True Fool

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ok this proves you dont know nothin about competitive smash players

bowser- gimpyfish
mewtwo- taj
luigi- kamaster
kirby - kirbykid
ive seen some good DK's and pikachu's (chu)
yoshi- gabe (straight) / Fumi
Mario - Eggz
Dr. Mario - bob$
How many of them do you see winning at big tourneys though? Put any of them against Ken, Azn, or PC chris and tell me who you think will win.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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How many of them do you see winning at big tourneys though? Put any of them against Ken, Azn, or PC chris and tell me who you think will win.
While this may be true, I have seen some very good players of these characters in tourneys. My friend (King Kong, an Aussie like myself, currently ranked fourth best in Australia or something) had the honour of fighting Ken's Marth. Being true to himself he used DK and actually managed to surprise Ken with a 0-to-death throw combo. After that, Ken beat him of course, but it goes to show that these characters aren't entirely useless.
 

Sanji

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my point, you fool, is that since he stated half the roster is USELESS, i showed him up. What i said is entirely true, all those players are above average players and can beat the average fox/marth/sheik/peach player.
 

True Fool

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my point, you fool, is that since he stated half the roster is USELESS, i showed him up. What i said is entirely true, all those players are above average players and can beat the average fox/marth/sheik/peach player.
Don't get upset with me. I'm stating the obvious. They win because their good players. But two good players against each other, the one with the better character has a serious edge when regarding Melee. The best Mewtwo player in the world still doesn't stand a chance against the best Marth player.
 

veil222

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I agree they aren't useless* in very expirenced hands*, just not nearly as tournament viable as the high teirs. And nowhere did I say this needed to be locked, just thought this post would help out and get more attention adding to another thread that's talking about techs. People are so on edge here ><
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Yeah, tiers have to be considered in a vaccuum. That is, the players are both at the highest skill level possible.

Having said that, I'm a staunch believer in the philosophy that counters > tiers. If a Ness player gets one grab in on a Fox player, they can often death combo for up to 60% from nothing. Game and Watch can also do this effectively.

Not that Ness is a counter to Fox, but he is a low-tier character who can match up to him on a fairly even level.
 

D1

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When I first played Brawl today for the the first time EVER...I was just fresh off of playing Melee for the last time. And boy was I mad for a while...then I just eased into it and realized its a different game, and actually started enjoying the HELL outta the game. I think this had potential despite the fact I hate how I lag so much after certain chars aerials...I'll just have to ues those high risk moves when I know they'll hit...this game makes ya think more I guess instead of being a tech monster and just throwing w/e out to crush your opponent's defense and break their shield like in Melee.
 

veil222

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Messages
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D1, you should look at one of my posts talking about what I've seen people do with Ganondorf, there's a video I link of a ganon pushing a falco around with strong attacks while he's sheilding. You can use that for mindgaming and forcing them to spot dodge so you can feign/stall them and bash them with a strong attack again.
 
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