A Theory on Link's Neutral Game

[A-train]

Does Link always have to always apply pressure with projectiles? When I'm playing with Link against my friend, (who plays fox and is kind of scrub but whatever) I would approach with a lot of SHFFL'd nairs/fairs and create walls of bairs/nairs. I would also use Dtilt and Ftilt while I'm at center stage to keep him cornered. While he was on a platform, I pressured with lf Uairs and FH nairs/bairs. I know that Link's projectiles create a lot of opportunities for him but should you always use them in neutral? I feel that Link's attacks are good enough that they can be uses effectively in neutral without having to always opt for projectile pressure.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

There are enough tools in Link's moveset to vary his playstyle a little bit more than just projectile based stuff for certain matchups, but think of Link kind of like Peach in the way that projectiles are a large portion of his metagame. Of course there are matchups where you just are going to have to use projectiles a large portion of the match for zoning and punishes (well known cases are Marth and the three main floaties: Jigglypuff, Peach, and Ice Climbers), but there are other matchups where projectiles are a good portion while not being the only option (mostly the fast fallers: Fox, Falco, and Captain Falcon). Sheik is a combination of both. In terms of the other parts of his neutral game, you seem to have a good idea that the other part of his neutral game that is not based on projectiles is spacing with the sword, similar to Marth (difference being that Marth went for speed instead of the option to fight long-range). But I should tell you about the moves that you listed in terms of their usefulness since your friend plays Fox and I don't know if he's going to put in more work to make himself better. I can tell you right off the bat that your use of Dtilt and Ftilt is going to hurt you in the matchup. Many characters can come in and punish the Ftilt end lag, and Ftilt mostly is used to hit the opponent on the edge with the tip (still very risky) or just very hard reads for kills at high percents. Dtilt is situational as well with its properties, but it still is too slow to pull out freely since it also can be punished (except its the faster characters that can do it this time, and Fox is one of them). Dtilt can lead to aerial followups, but requires a read (not as hard, but still up there). If you want to shield poke him or get a clean hit on his feet, Dsmash is a better move since the hitbox comes out faster (point of notice: if you think that Dsmash isn't going to hit or will be shielded, you shouldn't be using it or Dtilt anyways). My point is that Dtilt and Ftilt are not moves to corner opponents on a regular basis. You already having cornering moves with Nair and Bair, and you already have good approach options with Nair (although Fair is more of a punish/finishing move, maybe pivot Bairs). Also, with the platforms, I would advise to use Uair more for pressure, but FH Nair/Bair has its uses.

So to sum it up, you don't always have to use projectiles depending on the matchup, and his aerials are good for use in the neutral as well. Also, even when his aerials are good (aside from freely used Dair), other lower characters have good aerials as well. What makes Link significantly better aside from projectiles is decent vertical mobility with his FF and he has moves that can string together beautifully for combos. I'm just pointing this out to make sure that the point of good moves doesn't always guarantee good viability in the neutral (Bowser has a beautiful Up B OoS option, but is low in the list for many other reasons.

 

[Darklink401]

There are enough tools in Link's moveset to vary his playstyle a little bit more than just projectile based stuff for certain matchups, but think of Link kind of like Peach in the way that projectiles are a large portion of his metagame. Of course there are matchups where you just are going to have to use projectiles a large portion of the match for zoning and punishes (well known cases are Marth and the three main floaties: Jigglypuff, Peach, and Ice Climbers), but there are other matchups where projectiles are a good portion while not being the only option (mostly the fast fallers: Fox, Falco, and Captain Falcon). Sheik is a combination of both. In terms of the other parts of his neutral game, you seem to have a good idea that the other part of his neutral game that is not based on projectiles is spacing with the sword, similar to Marth (difference being that Marth went for speed instead of the option to fight long-range). But I should tell you about the moves that you listed in terms of their usefulness since your friend plays Fox and I don't know if he's going to put in more work to make himself better. I can tell you right off the bat that your use of Dtilt and Ftilt is going to hurt you in the matchup. Many characters can come in and punish the Ftilt end lag, and Ftilt mostly is used to hit the opponent on the edge with the tip (still very risky) or just very hard reads for kills at high percents. Dtilt is situational as well with its properties, but it still is too slow to pull out freely since it also can be punished (except its the faster characters that can do it this time, and Fox is one of them). Dtilt can lead to aerial followups, but requires a read (not as hard, but still up there). If you want to shield poke him or get a clean hit on his feet, Dsmash is a better move since the hitbox comes out faster (point of notice: if you think that Dsmash isn't going to hit or will be shielded, you shouldn't be using it or Dtilt anyways). My point is that Dtilt and Ftilt are not moves to corner opponents on a regular basis. You already having cornering moves with Nair and Bair, and you already have good approach options with Nair (although Fair is more of a punish/finishing move, maybe pivot Bairs). Also, with the platforms, I would advise to use Uair more for pressure, but FH Nair/Bair has its uses.

So to sum it up, you don't always have to use projectiles depending on the matchup, and his aerials are good for use in the neutral as well. Also, even when his aerials are good (aside from freely used Dair), other lower characters have good aerials as well. What makes Link significantly better aside from projectiles is decent vertical mobility with his FF and he has moves that can string together beautifully for combos. I'm just pointing this out to make sure that the point of good moves doesn't always guarantee good viability in the neutral (Bowser has a beautiful Up B OoS option, but is low in the list for many other reasons.

But if youre at low percents and can crouch cancel into dtilt, its good right?

or should I dsmash even from a counch cancel?

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

But if youre at low percents and can crouch cancel into dtilt, its good right?

or should I dsmash even from a counch cancel?

Okay that is one of the better uses of Dtilt that I should've gone over, and I was trying to say that there are uses for the move. I was just making sure that it was understood that it is not a move to just pull out freely. Crouch cancel is a good option for this move since it can lead to another aerial for more damage. Although, personally I would be doing this if the opponent is not at kill percent yet. If he or she is at kill percent for a Dsmash, I would just use the Dsmash in that instance.

 

[Darklink401]

Okay that is one of the better uses of Dtilt that I should've gone over, and I was trying to say that there are uses for the move. I was just making sure that it was understood that it is not a move to just pull out freely. Crouch cancel is a good option for this move since it can lead to another aerial for more damage. Although, personally I would be doing this if the opponent is not at kill percent yet. If he or she is at kill percent for a Dsmash, I would just use the Dsmash in that instance.

Of course. CC dtilt is, IMO a....well considering we main Link, its a pretty dang good move for early stocks, from both players (so you can CC and rack up damage on the opponent) but def dsmash for kill %s. is that his best smash attack? Cuz I often whiff with upsmash and fsmash is...strong but situational I think?

If dtilt was just a bit faster.....

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

Of course. CC dtilt is, IMO a....well considering we main Link, its a pretty dang good move for early stocks, from both players (so you can CC and rack up damage on the opponent) but def dsmash for kill %s. is that his best smash attack? Cuz I often whiff with upsmash and fsmash is...strong but situational I think?

If dtilt was just a bit faster.....

Well even still, you can't rely on CC cus the opponent can take advantage of you CCing in some way depending upon the character, but CC Dtilt is still an option for starting a Link combo. I wish Dtilt was faster as well for the sake of another spacing hitbox with great rewards (funny how the corresponding smash attack is faster). In terms of smash attacks, Dsmash basically is the one with the lowest amount of risk (still very risky considering the end lag and lag between the two hitbox frame ranges) since its hitbox comes out the fastest and can launch opponents very well. Fsmash can kill as well, but it takes much longer to start up making it a more situational move. It's used when you know the option your opponent is going to take that can be traded with or beaten by Fsmash. Plus the second hit is much harder to land to where I mostly see Link land it at low percents since both hits technically can lead to each other, or I see the second hit land after a rest punish is setup where a boomerang is thrown and the first hit is used to send the Puff into the boomerang in order to be killed by the second hit since she dies early. As for Usmash, the move's multiple hits don't lead into each other naturally except at low percents, and it is supposed to be an anti-air option, but it fails in its execution making Utilt significantly better. In summation, when I look at the smash attacks, they go in order of greatest usefulness to least: Dsmash, Fsmash, Usmash.

 

[Darklink401]

Thank you~

One thing I've noticed tho, is that upsmash seems to have super low endlag.....not that it matters because it's a 3-hit move, so it's still very punisheable, but....xD

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

Nah, too punishable for use.

 

[Sempai]

Yah Upsmash can also be smash DI-ed out of, I cant think of a single situation where I would rather usmash than simply utilt.

 

[Darklink401]

Nah, too punishable for use.

Germ likes to go for upsmashes tho

But I absolutely try to stay away from it, uptilt is so much better xD

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

Yeah, I still don't understand why unless they are input errors (I would have to look at the matches again to make sure). Utilt is good enough for me anyways. "This ain't PM."

 

[Dextrose]

Back on the topic of Links usages of CC attacks, isnt CC dtilt into dair(or uair for lighter characters) a bit more deadly that CC dsmash/fsmash?
Ive had better success with CC dtilt into FH dair against my brother (a marth player)

 

[Dextrose]

What about CC dtilt in dair/uair

 

[Icyo]

CC dtilt would be very situational. I don't see it being effective against aerials. It might work when CCing against smash attacks.

 

[Darklink401]

CC dtilt would be very situational. I don't see it being effective against aerials. It might work when CCing against smash attacks.

I'm able to use it quit often~

I often go into CC dtilt into SH nair, so I can get more followups.

 

[Icyo]

I'm able to use it quit often~

I often go into CC dtilt into SH nair, so I can get more followups.

What character are you pulling this off on and what kind of move are they using?

 

[Darklink401]

What character are you pulling this off on and what kind of move are they using?

Ahh...don't really remember specifically, but the tournament I went to, I just sorta...did it xD It was easy, you just gotta know when to do it~
I get it off quite often vs captain falcon tho.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

Ahh...don't really remember specifically, but the tournament I went to, I just sorta...did it xD It was easy, you just gotta know when to do it~
I get it off quite often vs captain falcon tho.

Aside from not making it sound convincing, I can see you using it against obvious aerial approaches like Nair, Uair, and Dair depending on your percent against Falcon.

 

[Darklink401]

Aside from not making it sound convincing, I can see you using it against obvious aerial approaches like Nair, Uair, and Dair depending on your percent against Falcon.

low % lnik can crouch cancel so well x3

Crouch cancel up B is something I need to try tho

Thanks @ SAUS

 

[SAUS]

Crouch cancel up-b hits on frame 8 (d-smash hits on frame 9). It's faster than all of your other standing options except for jab. It's the best move to use out of CC if your opponent will die from it since it is the fastest and strongest option you have.

D-tilt and up-smash are a bit awkward to use, but their power comes from low damage hits.

D-tilt:
If they CC it, it is fully punishable, but if they only ASDI down, it gets a knockdown on spacies at 0%. This is a huge deal since CC is definitely one of Link's biggest weaknesses.

Up-smash:
Up-smash also seems to be safe against non-true CC, and it is a powerful tool against shield dropping. It also shield pokes fairly often. Taller characters tend to get sucked into it, like Marth and Falcon.

All in all, these moves have really good base knockback. They are just slower than other options, so they should be used sparingly.

 

[Bravo_10]

I think up-smash is underrated Melee. I started off as a PM player and mained that game for a while, so there was a time when I overused it.

But I think it really shines when you're under a fastfaller on a platform. Below certain percents (somewhere around 40), up-air doesn't have enough knockback to get you a second follow-up if used for platform pressure. It's pretty quick out of a SHFFL, but the 15 frames of landing lag and 26 total frames it takes to get the hitbox out again after you land are a bit much.

Up-smash however has such low knockback on the initial hits that fastfallers can't really escape if tipped by it at low percents. The final hit will smack them up with decent knockback, and the IASA on it is so fast that you can almost always follow up with an up-air on the platform. Like SAUS already said, it tends to shield poke effectively, and it does decent shield damage if all of the hits connect. I'd say its biggest weakness is the fact that, if used as a platform tech chase, you're really just committing to covering a single option. Up-air can be drifted from the middle to the side of a platform to cover two options, or just used reactively much easier than up-smash.

...and against floaties, the move is borderline useless. It's difficult to connect with the strong hit against characters like Peach and Samus, even despite their high weight. You can maybe surprise someone with up-smash out of shield? But that option's crappy anyways.

 

[SAUS]

I find up-smash is actually pretty good against floaties as well. It's still good against shield drop and their low fall speed means they get stuck in the air even when they SDI out in the early hits. The hitboxes are gigantic and the move is not very punishable if the floaty is in the air, so it's good to throw out sometimes. It also hits that one spot that is like 45 degrees up and in front of you which is usually awkward to hit.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I think it might be good OoS vs characters like CF and Falco to catch them in their jump. It sets up for combos pretty well.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

Bump, I haven't had much success in setting up combos with it considering the inconsistency with the three hits. Do you try to pull off an aerial or a projectile against floaties? I'm assuming that you use aerials against fastfallers. Just asking since I probably am just inconsistent with pulling off the followups from up-smash. I just don't use the move often.

 

[Bravo_10]

It really just depends on the hits you get. Weak hit won't really land you any kind of follow up, but it still puts the other character above you. Floaties like Peach, Puff, and Marth have a real problem trying to get down against Link.

Against fastfallers, you should get a pretty guaranteed up air if you land the strong hit (which really should happen against them at most percents unless they SDI out sideways). At low percents, you'll have to SHFFL it form the ground, and you can full hop up air once they suffer enough knockback to go high in the air. I find that sometimes the landing lag on up air is a little too severe to stop people from DI'ing to the top platform and teching before you can get another up air off, but then you can just pull a bomb.

I think the next-level swag follow-up is to no-impact land on the platform, then do a platform-cancel up air. Which would require multiple frame perfect inputs, but who knows? Maybe somebody will lab it out and turn it into a thing.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Any tips for getting out of sheiks tech chase?

 

[SAUS]

Getting tech chased by anyone is not part of the neutral game Shiek can change grab, anyway. All you can really do is hope they don't mess up. Focus on not getting grabbed.

 

[Bravo_10]

I feel like "how to not get grabbed by Sheik" should be a thread all on its own. It's just so ridiculously hard, but there's also so many ways to approach the topic. Personally, I think the biggest adjustment I had to make when learning the Sheik matchup was not relying so heavily on my shield. Link's shield is pretty large, but Sheik players just pounce when they see the bubble come up.

 

[SAUS]

I try to never rely on my shield. Link sucks out of shield. I usually end up light shielding so I slide as far away as possible.

I find against Shiek, you need to play a "bigger" game. What I mean is, keep a big distance between you and them and go for big setups. Don't try to fight in footsies since you will almost definitely lose. Make your punishes big - large focus on how to edgeguard Shiek is important.

Probably the thing that messes me up most is how far Shiek's standing grab reaches. I get shield grabbed way too much lol. Other than that, I am having a rough time when the Shiek stays on top of me too well. We both have CC, but all her options are better after CC, her grab is faster, and she has easier punishes off of her hits than Link does.

 

[ChivalRuse]

At OP: I start to get worried when you reference f-tilt and d-tilt as moves to use and ignore UTILT.