A recent article regarding Sakurai and the competitive scene

[Maestro_]

http://gengame.net/2013/03/sakurai-...-smash-bros-battles-arent-interesting-or-fun/

I've been roughly aware of his feelings for the scene but this recent article concerns me. Is Sakurai going to make SSB4 purposely even less catered to the true loyal fans of this series who play it competitively?

 

[FalKoopa]

Uhm, this has already been posted in this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/sakurai-and-the-competitive-scene.334556/

 

[Maestro_]

Man, I figured since it came out TODAY that maybe it was news. Apparently not. -_-

 

[kikaru]

It seems that the easy solution would be to have normals and ranked divisions for online play as well as having unranked custom matches.

Normals would simply allow access to all items and stages with a default number of lives and default drop rate. (So possibly medium?)

Ranked would be more complicated. I was thinking players could pre-select up to 5-6 stages and would be matched up against other players with a similar ranking and matched up in at least one stage. (If players only match in one stage then they would compete on that stage, if they matched two or more stages it would be chosen randomly among the stages they matched).
Lives would be defaulted to a certain number and items would be turned off (Except for cases such as Peach, Wario, etc). (Ranking ladders would also take into account the stages you select making it public by having icons of your most played stages.)

Custom matches would mean anything goes. Whoever creates the game can alter items, lives, time, game mode, drop rate, etc. Players who enter the match must all agree upon the rules set-up before the match can begin.

Anyways, the point is Super Smash isn't supposed to be catered strictly to the competitive scene, there are also many casuals who simply want to enjoy the game for what it is and what it has to offer.

 

[Maestro_]

It seems that the easy solution would be to have normals and ranked divisions for online play as well as having unranked custom matches.

This works very well for Pokemon Online, I've found. I'm always facing an opponent within 200 of my ranking so it's always competitive. I'd love this system used in some fashion.

Anyways, the point is Super Smash isn't supposed to be catered strictly to the competitive scene, there are also many casuals who simply want to enjoy the game for what it is and what it has to offer

Oh by all means, still cater to the rest. Hell, even I play just to mess around with friends with it. I'm sure we all do from time to time. But they talk about "fun" in this article and I can tell you that personally, I have infinitely more fun playing for the competition than messing around throwing beam swords at people. There's a way that it can be both, just as it has been for 3 games. But Brawl trends more toward them than us and I hope it doesn't trend further.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

That's some fine journalism; make the title sound as controversial as possible so people click on it.
Sakurai really didn't take a stance against competitive fighting. All he really said is he wanted to design the game to be fun online.

 

[---]

http://gengame.net/2013/03/sakurai-...-smash-bros-battles-arent-interesting-or-fun/

Pretty sure that this article takes the original article completely out of context. Sakurai was talking about the taunt matches being boring not competitive play, which while he hasn't given his full support of yet we haven't seen him denounce it either.

 

[Maestro_]

lol I simply found the title to be accurate. But if it's having that effect, then bonus.

 

[Maestro_]

Pretty sure that this article takes the original article completely out of context. Sakurai was talking about the taunt matches being boring not competitive play, which while he hasn't given his full support of yet we haven't seen him denounce it either.

Yeah, now that I see that, I think you're right. The out-of-context seems intentional by them, but I'm not sure why they would. Anyway, that does make me feel better at least.

Edit: sorry for the double post.

 

[SmashChu]

Uhm, this has already been posted in this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/sakurai-and-the-competitive-scene.334556/

It's probably better for it to have it's own thread.

This doesn't surprise me. I think what Sakurai wan't is a mix and match. Some items are on and some off. But the issue is that all of them are off and it's frequent. I figure the solution is to balance the items more in how they function. Very likely, he'll add in more items that are not as strong as well as some that are very powerful. Giving it a range may solve it to some degree.

 

[Maestro_]

It's probably better for it to have it's own thread.

This doesn't surprise me. I think what Sakurai wan't is a mix and match. Some items are on and some off. But the issue is that all of them are off and it's frequent. I figure the solution is to balance the items more in how they function. Very likely, he'll add in more items that are not as strong as well as some that are very powerful. Giving it a range may solve it to some degree.

Well he can have his mix and match with the mix and match people who play it. It's pretty unlikely that tournaments will ever have items so it's still for the casuals.

And I'm not anti-casual or anything like that, just want it to be good for all. Not JUST casual. 'Cause it's impossible for a smash game to be JUST for the competitive scene, as there's so many things on it already that make the game fun for all. So I don't think asking for it to be catered to both is too much to ask really.

 

[SmashChu]

Well he can have his mix and match with the mix and match people who play it. It's pretty unlikely that tournaments will ever have items so it's still for the casuals.

And I'm not anti-casual or anything like that, just want it to be good for all. Not JUST casual. 'Cause it's impossible for a smash game to be JUST for the competitive scene, as there's so many things on it already that make the game fun for all. So I don't think asking for it to be catered to both is too much to ask really.

Problem is you can't please both, so you might as well chose. Sakurai chose casual play when he designed the game years ago.

Unfortunatly, your post is one of the reason something has to give. Competitive play is draining the fun of online, and something has to be changed to prevent this.

 

[Maestro_]

Problem is you can't please both, so you might as well chose. Sakurai chose casual play when he designed the game years ago.

Unfortunatly, your post is one of the reason something has to give. Competitive play is draining the fun of online, and something has to be changed to prevent this.

You might be right, and I'm willing to concede that to some degree. As long as the actual mechanics of the game still are good for competition so I can go to offline tourneys and still keep that aspect, I will be happy. But I still like that ranking system idea for online like pokemon online uses, and a separate section for not playing ranked matches. The idea may be flawed in some way I'm not seeing. But again, I'm willing to concede change in casual favor, just as long as me, and the rest of the many people who wanna compete still can.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

inb4 10 pages of SmashChu trolling the world

 

[El Duderino]

Clearly he wasn't addressing the items aspect of the question, or even the competitive scene.

He just agrees that campy Brawl isn't fun and was made worse by the shotty netcode.

 

[Maestro_]

Clearly he wasn't addressing the items aspect of the question, or even the competitive scene.

He just agrees that campy Brawl isn't fun and was made worse by the shotty netcode.

Yeah after I noticed the context issue, I realized this was not as bad as I thought originally.

 

[Qnez]

Is Sakurai going to make SSB4 purposely even less catered to the true loyal fans of this series who play it competitively?

Ah, so playing with items and on banned stages makes makes me less of a fan then the competitive players. (seeing as playing with items and on banned stages already brands you as casual around here) Good to know.

I have infinitely more fun playing for the competition than messing around throwing beam swords at people

Playing with items can have competition too, there is such a thing as item tactics. I know it adds in luck and maybe you can't deal with that, but playing with items doesn't mean that were just ****ing around the stage and not trying to win.

 

[El Duderino]

Unless you're making machinima or something, any type of play with Smash's multiplayer is competitive.

 

[Maestro_]

Ah, so playing with items and on banned stages makes makes me less of a fan then the competitive players. (seeing as playing with items and on banned stages already brands you as casual around here) Good to know.

Playing with items can have competition too, there is such a thing as item tactics. I know it adds in luck and maybe you can't deal with that, but playing with items doesn't mean that were just ****ing around the stage and not trying to win.

Obviously I'm not speaking in absolutes, but clearly the competitive scene does play the games more frequently (i.e. pretty much every day) than otherwise, so I certainly think that shows a level of dedication.That's all I meant by that.

And obviously playing with items has competition too. But there's no denying the randomness and quick change in fortunes they cause as well. Plus I seem to only ever be playing these options when there's a huge difference in skill level between the players I'm playing with. It's a moot point regardless, because there's the option to have them on or not so it's purely preference.

Again, I have nothing against any way anyone enjoys these games. I do it in all ways myself.

 

[Orngeblu]

Well, Sakurai is also looking to balance each character, so keep that in mind.

 

[Maestro_]

Well, Sakurai is also looking to balance each character, so keep that in mind.

It's a very difficult thing to do with so many (btw please don't lower that, 'cause I love the variety), but the concept is the right idea, most definitely.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I think that's why Metaknight was so OP, because he was fun.

 

[FalKoopa]

I think that's why Metaknight was so OP, because he was fun.

Fun for you, not for the opponent. >_>

 

[SmashChu]

You might be right, and I'm willing to concede that to some degree. As long as the actual mechanics of the game still are good for competition so I can go to offline tourneys and still keep that aspect, I will be happy. But I still like that ranking system idea for online like pokemon online uses, and a separate section for not playing ranked matches. The idea may be flawed in some way I'm not seeing. But again, I'm willing to concede change in casual favor, just as long as me, and the rest of the many people who wanna compete still can.

Maybe. Any viability in tournaments will be luck since the game wont be designed for competitive play. Still, people play Brawl in tournaments despite complaining about it.

Unless you're making machinima or something, any type of play with Smash's multiplayer is competitive.

FYI, when we say "compeititive," we mean tourney***s.

 

[El Duderino]

FYI, when we say "compeititive," we mean tourney***s.

Understood, so you're just being a bigot.

 

[FlareHabanero]

FYI, when we say "compeititive," we mean tourney***s.

Except nobody is saying "compeititive".

 

[Maestro_]

Maybe. Any viability in tournaments will be luck since the game wont be designed for competitive play. Still, people play Brawl in tournaments despite complaining about it.

God I hope not, but if so, then so be it. I'll still play. I've played this long.

Understood, so you're just being a bigot.

This aggression will not stand, man.

(sorry I could only go so long without slipping a quote in)

 

[El Duderino]

Honestly anyone that thinks it's ok to refer to people as 'tourneyfags' needs to realign their moral compass. It's both extremely intolerant of fellow gamers and discriminatory against people of a different sexual orientation. It's textbook bigotry.

 

[Maestro_]

Honestly anyone that thinks it's ok to refer to people as 'tourney***s' needs to realign their moral compass. It's both extremely intolerant of fellow gamers and discriminatory against people of a different sexual orientation. It's textbook bigotry.

I assume you're talking to SmashChu since I was just taking the opportunity to slip in a Lebowski quote. I don't use that term.

 

[El Duderino]

haha, yeah.

 

[Frostwraith]

This whole article is creating a big misunderstanding...
What Sakurai said is NOT about competitive play, but about taunt parties and other such kind of matches where no one does anything unless attacked!

 

[Mono.]

This is getting ironic. Are the so called "victims of tourneyfags" now asking Sakurai to mold the game to their liking instead of keeping a diverse ruleset for every style of play?

 

[Maestro_]

This whole article is creating a big misunderstanding...
What Sakurai said is NOT about competitive play, but about taunt parties and other such kind of matches where no one does anything unless attacked!

Yeah, I already addressed the misunderstanding, but oh well. hehe

 

[Starphoenix]

I've been saying this in the other thread, but it probably bears repeating here. I'm not sure why everyone is interpreting Sakurai's quote to be a referendum on competitive/non-competitive play. The writer of the letter asked him his opinion on what sounds to be some form of taunt party. Sakurai goes on to say that he will address this issue in the next game; of which the primary problems with Brawl's online system stemmed from a lack of experience at the time and hardware that could not support patches.

 

[Mithost]

He was talking about taunt parties, not the competitive scene. The blog article left out some key information and manipulated what was left to have a greater effect on those who are most sensitive. They left out the point that they were not attacking the competitive scene, and manipulated the title and text to say "Sakurai doesn't like no-items, careful playing". It's a blog, and they do this all the time. Nuff' said.

 

[volbound1700]

Curious question for competitives... why items totally off?

Some items like the Bats, Laser Swords, Barrells, Laser gun, Blaster, Spring, Mushroom, etc. change game play to a degree but usually do not change the outcome. In fact the ability to get these items often is a skill itself.

I can see turning off AT, Hammer, Pokeball (I really don't find them overpower as you have to be near them to have an effect but some are powerful), Smash Ball etc.

I wish you could turn off capsules, they are annoying as heck when they spawn in front of you and then explode.

 

[Orngeblu]

It's a very difficult thing to do with so many (btw please don't lower that, 'cause I love the variety), but the concept is the right idea, most definitely.

*cough* namco *cough*

 

[kikaru]

Curious question for competitives... why items totally off?

Some items like the Bats, Laser Swords, Barrells, Laser gun, Blaster, Spring, Mushroom, etc. change game play to a degree but usually do not change the outcome. In fact the ability to get these items often is a skill itself.

I can see turning off AT, Hammer, Pokeball (I really don't find them overpower as you have to be near them to have an effect but some are powerful), Smash Ball etc.

I wish you could turn off capsules, they are annoying as heck when they spawn in front of you and then explode.

It's because in competitive play they want to lower the luck factor as much as possible. It's simply be luck which items appear and where they appear. (It takes skill to use them and half of the time it might take skill to get them, but the other half of the time it takes no skill to obtain items that conveniently spawned next to you. You will suddenly have an advantage over an opponent without putting skill into it.)

It's comparable to the Pokemon competitive scene where the factor of anti-fun luck is reduced as much as possible (Among other things such as banning certain team comps, tiering Pokemon, etc). Attacks and items that lower accuracy/ increase evasion are typically banned in competitive play because these mechanics rely too heavily on luck and eventually become anti-fun to play against. The game goes from competitive to luck based kind of like how some noted competitive Brawl was a bit more campy.

 

[Junahu]

I do get the feeling that "With Anyone" online play will have a specific set of rules in place, like pretty much every other recent online game that has the ability to play online with randoms.They will want to keep online play (with randoms) controlled so that new players are getting the experience that the game was designed around.

The precedent is with Kid Icarus Uprising's With-Anyone multiplayer, which does not give the players any options whatsoever. They fight on a random stage, with all items on, no weapon limits, and with bots filling in the empty slots. This is personally what I'm expecting from SSB4's With-Anyone component.

 

[volbound1700]

Yes but bats, mr saturn, etc. offer very little in terms of strategy. Item chucking would be about the only good use and you can shield to block it. They are valuable if you can catch the opponent in the air need the edge of the screen.