A question for improving my game

[Nabbitnator]

I've been playing smash for a while now and a few things I have issues with is that I roll too much. I know there are option selects against rolling but I would like to know what is the best way to have some sort of discipline against rolls. What options do I have on defense out of shield? The other issue is trying to capitalize my punishes I see the chances to punish but I don't know how to go about getting the kill or the positioning.

 

[OmegaSorin]

You main Peach, so I can't give you a lot of the info that you'll need to successfully fight off an enemy without rolling consistently;

I know how I do it with Lucina and Lil Mac though. With Lucina, and especially Mac, I have mastered the art of spotdodging. Spotdodging, while sometimes in the same category of rolling, is a quicker and but more difficult to pull off way of avoiding damage. A spot Dodge can lead to a good counter if your good at foreseeing an attack. (For reference Spot-Dodging is the Shield+Down move also known as Sidestepping, ect). Mastering this can land some good openings to hip bump with peach or smash them with an uncharged golf-club. (Warning: Certain attacks can break through the spot dodging so it comes down to what attack you foresee).

Another good idea is to continue rolling, but initiating a Down Smash after rolling twice or thrice. Most characters have d-Smash moves that effect both sides of their immediate area so you can achieve one of two things, hitting the person in the front as a counter, or hitting the person in the back whom was dodge rolling to avoid a center attack. Either way you hit them, and its considered a good counter-offensive move.

Again, I can't really help you on specifics because I don't main peach, but... thats my Two cents.

 

[Kofu]

Jumping out of shield is probably the most immediate answer. If you're close enough you can go for a grab. You can also drop shield and walk/run away/toward the opponent. When you jump out of shield it's often good to use an aerial as a safeguard (NAir is usually best). USmash is another option to use out of shield. Also a reminder that rolling isn't always bad; it has its place as a defensive maneuver and repositioning tool. It just shouldn't be your primary movement option (IMO).

As for punishing, know your options to punish. Moves that have a brief delay before they activate can be good, especially if they move you forward. You have Peach and Pac-Man as your mains; both of their side-Bs have good power and move them forward to punish they opponent. Charging a smash attack can be brutal, if a but telegraphed. If you go for this option, bait their defensive response (such as an airdodge) and release the charge when it's over. Strong projectiles are handy as well. Several of the Bonus Fruit varieties and a handful of Peach's turnips fill this role.

If you want to learn about punishing on a general level, use a character that's slower and whose whole game is basically punishing. Take Ganondorf, for example. I don't think he has a move that's faster than 7 frames coming out. It's hard to play reactively with him, but if you learn to read your opponent's actions, you only need a few good blows to end a stock.

 

[HeroMystic]

With Peach you actually want to float more. F-air and D-air are good moves to use while floating.

As for getting rid of your rolling habits, it honestly takes a consistent effort to not roll to get it out of your muscle memory. Just make it a training regimen. Just play against level 9 CPUs and tell yourself you're not going to roll at all, and focus on using other options when going against attacks. When you've done it enough times, play against human players and do the same thing, and don't worry about winning.

That's honestly the best way to get out of a roll habit, just pretend rolling doesn't exist.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I feel like this is going to be street fighter all over again with in that game I had to learn not to jump. I know I can do this. I'm going to do full training sessions of not rolling.

 

[Zylach]

I've recently been on an anti-rolling campaign among all of my friends that play smash because they all want to get better and I tell them how predictable they are when rolling too much. Rolling out of shield should be your go-to OoS option if the opponent is going for a grab and you know you can hit them back immediately after your roll (Here, I'm thinking of people with quick rolls like Palutena for instance. Don't do this with characters like Samus whose roll is long) You should also be rolling out of multi-hit attacks that will probably eat your shield. Those are the only two moments I can think to use a roll dodge other than after whiffing an attack as a defensive measure against counter attacks though it won't help most of the time after a whiff since you should be getting punished for your whiffs.

That said, your other options OoS are shield grabbing, spot dodging, jumping, or straight up attacking. Peach has a fast grab that is also great for setting up combos for her especially on low percent opponents. I'm notorious for sitting in my shield until my opponent hits it so I can easily shield grab them. It's really effective against characters with poor dash attacks that have long ending lag and put them right in front of you.

Spot dodging is your next option which should only really be used to counter grabs since shield grabbing an opponent is usually faster than attacking immediately after a spot dodge. If your opponent is grabbing you consistently out of your shield, start spot dodging when they go in for the grab.

Jumping out of shield is something I rarely do but is a great option for Peach since she can activate her float right above the ground and use an aerial attack, probably a nair or dair (I'm not too familiar with Peach) to counter an opponent's approach. Just be wary because this is slower than shield grabbing.

The last option is just attacking out of your shield, something I believe Peach can do well because her jab comes out so quickly. This is also something Lil Mac likes to do since he has a frame 1 jab. This is probably your fastest option as Peach though not always your highest damage option using a double jab helps against opponents that are quick enough to spot dodge a whiff and are expecting a shield grab since the second slap will almost always hit an opponent immediately after their spot dodge.

Other than that, your only other option is staying in your shield which is always risky since an opponent will usually be tempted to grab you if you keep your shield up for too long. Though, against players that don't know how to grab (I'm looking at a lot of the FG folks out there), it can keep you safe from characters like Lil Mac who can dash attack then immediately follow up with a jab combo though your shield will be begging for a break after that.

Rolling is an inherently defensive strategy but overdoing it will make you predictable. The key to having a great defense is knowing all your options and mixing it up on the opponent to keep yourself from becoming predictable. This way, you keep the element of surprise on your side all match long.

Sorry for the wall of text but I hope this helps a bit. Good luck with your smashing endeavors!

 

[Nabbitnator]

Thank you for all the help. I'll make sure to keep looking back at this as I continue to train.

 

[OmegaSorin]

Good luck, and remember even on a professional level, Smash is still about having fun! So don't forget that~

 

[chainmaillekid]

Jumping out of shield is probably the most immediate answer.

Wow.

I don't think I've EVER deliberately done that.

I mean. I would have jumped, but only as an accessory to something else I wanted to do, Like a nair.



Anyway, I used to roll a lot, because back in the day of melee I played lv9 compys almost exclusively. Its a very profitable strategy against computers.

IMO the best defense against it, it so find somebody to play who knows how to punish it.
My friend was a Samus main, and Samus will punish the crap out of rolls.

 

[NairWizard]

Keep replays of your play. Mark down every time you roll in the videos, and ask yourself: "What was the opportunity cost of rolling in this situation?" i.e. "What could I have done instead of roll that would have let me have a bigger advantage on my opponent?"

Then try to implement the answers that you find into your gameplay. You will find that rolling habits will disappear naturally as you start to find flat-out better options.

 

[Kofu]

Wow.

I don't think I've EVER deliberately done that.

I mean. I would have jumped, but only as an accessory to something else I wanted to do, Like a nair.

Probably true, but I do jump OoS on a fairly regular basis. He asked what to do out of shield and if you want an evasive maneuver that's not rolling/spotdodging, you probably want to jump. I mentioned that using an aerial as a safeguard when you jump is a good idea, though.

I forgot to mention that you can also use Up-B out of shield. For some characters, it's a great option, especially if the Up-B has invincibility frames (Bowser, Marth, Mario, and Game & Watch can all make use of this). For others, not so much.

 

[Nabbitnator]

So I've been doing everything that was said. Now I almost rarely do rolls. Instead I now do Nair out of shield, sometimes shield grabs or sometimes I do nothing to see what my opponent does. I've also upped my punishes on rolls. Instead of panicking and relying on down smash I simply just smash the opposite way to catch a roll. It's very helpful to do. I'd like to thank you all for your help.