A New Idea for Clones

[Mr. Mumbles]

Yes I said clones, and not semiclones despite true clones not existing in Brawl. I have an idea, that would actually make the presence of clones not only tolerable but also enjoyable.

You see what gets me about Melee's clones (Melee's clones is redundant, but in case anyone needed to be reminded...) is that a character that was a not entirely new character was being passed off as though it was; this feels lazy, even though it really wasn't. There just wasn't time to make that many nonclone characters. The other reason it bothered me was because of Ganondorf but that is a topic for another day.

So the problem is psychological, therefore I propose a psychological solution. Make regular characters be able to transform back and forth between there clone and nonclone forms at will. Also make transformation characters no longer be transformations but be selectable from the selection screen. You see, to my brain it makes more sense for a transformation to not be that unique, but for selectable characters to be completely unique, but in Melee they got this completely backwards. In Brawl they didn't strictly get this backwards as there were no real clones, but it still felt a little backwards due to the semiclones.

Thus I propose, semiclones either be brought back to full clone status, or be made completely independent. For example I propose one of Fox's taunts (because clones aren't worth losing a move over) has him jump back into his Arwing and has Falco jump into place right where Fox was standing. However for Wolf, I propose they just make a few adjustments and make him his own character.

Thus mid battle you could mix things up a bit by throwing pills instead of fire balls. Nothing major, but enough to add a little fun to every character and add some representation for characters (Like Dr. Mario) who wouldn't be represented otherwise. Also suddenly it doesn't feel lazy because every character has this and its a part of who they are instead of something separate to select on the selection screen. With how much less time clones take to develop (because these would be true clones) I feel like a 40 character roster each with clone counterparts is not unreasonable. Especially since I don't think the 5 to 1 ratio holds as the roster grows, because adding a new character is multiplication whereas adding a clone is not. Or at least I should think not.

It would definitely require some creativity for many characters to come up with suitable clones. Who would Luigi's clone be? Well if they gave him a more vacuum based set maybe Professor E Gadd could be? Come to think of it, some characters clone could just be them in a different stance or attitude. So Luigi's clone might be scared Luigi. That would make him a faster but less powerful character perhaps? And Ganondorf could pull out his sword to channel his magic through, thus giving him better range but decreased power, but due to him primarily being a Warlock his moves would still be fundamentally the same.

 

[moneyfrenzy]

this is a really great idea as long as they dont change the characters to much like ness taking lucas moves or fox and wolf, but it would be awesome if it was like mario, dr mario and fox and falco

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

this is a really great idea as long as they dont change the characters to much like ness taking lucas moves or fox and wolf, but it would be awesome if it was like mario, dr mario and fox and falco

Agreed Lucas would have to be made much more cloney for it to work for him. Otherwise the development time of the clones would take far to long.

 

[Zonderion]

Thus I propose, semiclones either be brought back to full clone status, or be made completely independent. For example I propose one of Fox's taunts (because clones aren't worth losing a move over) has him jump back into his Arwing and has Falco jump into place right where Fox was standing. However for Wolf, I propose they just make a few adjustments and make him his own character.

I like this idea, however I think it transition should be faster, and they should be vulnerable to hit-boxes. I think the main thing that should be avoidable, is any type of spammability that changing into clones would produce. In my mind, I'm thinking more of a "shining scanner" that proceeds from the top of the body to the bottom for one transition and from bottom to top for the other. Similar to how the characters get their new look in the Brawl trailer:

Look at 0:05

Thus mid battle you could mix things up a bit by throwing pills instead of fire balls. Nothing major, but enough to add a little fun to every character and add some representation for characters (Like Dr. Mario) who wouldn't be represented otherwise. Also suddenly it doesn't feel lazy because every character has this and its a part of who they are instead of something separate to select on the selection screen. With how much less time clones take to develop (because these would be true clones) I feel like a 40 character roster each with clone counterparts is not unreasonable. Especially since I don't think the 5 to 1 ratio holds as the roster grows, because adding a new character is multiplication whereas adding a clone is not. Or at least I should think not.

I'm not sure how I feel about the different attacks. If it is strictly aesthetics, then awesome. But I guess if every character has a clone that offers a subtle difference in the way they play and it is equal to all players, that could be a really neat idea.

It would definitely require some creativity for many characters to come up with suitable clones. Who would Luigi's clone be? Well if they gave him a more vacuum based set maybe Professor E Gadd could be? Come to think of it, some characters clone could just be them in a different stance or attitude. So Luigi's clone might be scared Luigi. That would make him a faster but less powerful character perhaps? And Ganondorf could pull out his sword to channel his magic through, thus giving him better range but decreased power, but due to him primarily being a Warlock his moves would still be fundamentally the same.

It could be debatable if a clone should have a different moveset. Even a subtle as a fireball changing to pill, if the speed of the projectile changes. As I mentioned earlier, the balancing needs to be equal through out. Technically you could bring Zelda/Sheik into this argument... I kind of liek the idea of having small moveset changes with the changing into a clone.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

I'm actually all for having a couple of semi-clones. I always thought having two Links was great, and Toon Link makes sense as a franchise rep; I think he's different enough that I don't feel like I've been cheated out of a character.

Your idea is interesting, but I think having straight clones as alt-costumes is better (Peach/Daisy, Mario/Dr. Mario on one slot, etc.).

 

[PikaJew]

But what happens when you beat classic mode with a Falco skin on your Fox?
Do you get a Fox trophy, or a Falco trophy?
Does the name change to Falco? Does the crowd chant Falco?
Do Falco's properties change, or is he exactly like Fox?
When Kirby sucks up Falco does he wear a Fox hat? Does he have Falco's gun or Fox's? Will Falco's gun be different?
No one in Melee were exact clones, some little things were tweaked for each one.
I wouldn't want to play as a Falco that can't jump high.

I mean it's still a new character, just hidden within another. It's not saving any space, just space on the roster selection screen.
I don't want to have to sift through Fox costumes to find Falco, or Captain Falcon's to find Ganondorf.
It's not doing anything beneficial by putting those characters in the same character slot, just adding more confusion.
It's straight up saying "We don't care about this character enough to give them their own identity".

They just need to keep altering each "clone" character like they did in Brawl.
They each deserve their own slot and individuality.

I am not a fan of these outrageous costume change ideas that turn them into a completely different character.
It takes away from their uniqueness and individuality.
If it's a completely different character, they deserve their own spot.

 

[Zonderion]

But what happens when you beat classic mode with a Falco skin on your Fox?
Do you get a Fox trophy, or a Falco trophy?
Does the name change to Falco? Does the crowd chant Falco?
Do Falco's properties change, or is he exactly like Fox?
When Kirby sucks up Falco does he wear a Fox hat? Does he have Falco's gun or Fox's? Will Falco's gun be different?
No one in Melee were exact clones, some little things were tweaked for each one.
I wouldn't want to play as a Falco that can't jump high.

I mean it's still a new character, just hidden within another. It's not saving any space, just space on the roster selection screen.
I don't want to have to sift through Fox costumes to find Falco, or Captain Falcon's to find Ganondorf.
It's not doing anything beneficial by putting those characters in the same character slot, just adding more confusion.
It's straight up saying "We don't care about this character enough to give them their own identity".

They just need to keep altering each "clone" character like they did in Brawl.
They each deserve their own slot and individuality.

I am not a fan of these outrageous costume change ideas that turn them into a completely different character.
It takes away from their uniqueness and individuality.
If it's a completely different character, they deserve their own spot.

Lets be honest though. It would be ridiculous to try and include every single Nintendo character. By adding these "costumes" they can represent characters who would otherwise never make it into Tue game. I don't think Falco is a good example because he is too iconic. But what about Frog? Would he ever be in Smash, 99% of me says no.

All of your questions are just a details thing. As systems progress in technology, I don't think it would be hard for them to include sound bites for each "costume". The trophies could be based on the amount of time spent in each "costume" with the trophy given to the character spent in the costume the longest. I personally think they should be exact clones, although having subtle differences might be cool. Each character would get one clone. So there's no sifting through anything. Fox could change to Frog and Falco to Rabbit.

We have to realize that not all characters will make it into smash. All we can hope for is a representation of those characters. Assist trophies are nice, but I think it would be cool to play with Rabbit, even if he plays the same as Falco.

I think the biggest struggle would be having the animations match the hit boxes. It would suck to get hit with an attack when the animation never actually touches you. Similar to disjointed hit boxes.

 

[peeup]

Since day 1 I've been advocating the introduction of Majora Link: He is essentially 3 clones of Link in 1. He transforms between Deku Link, Goron Link, and Zora Link with his neutral special. Deku Link's Up Special gives him the most height and also gives him a parachute effect as he comes down. Goron Link's Down Special is a powder keg that has a massive blast radius and is an effective kill move even at middling percents. Zora Link's Boomerang does heavy damage and also throws out 2 boomerangs at varying arcs. Generally speaking, Deku Link has superior aerial combat and mobility, Goron Link is by far the heaviest and has the strongest smashes, and Zora Link is fastest on the ground and has the best range on his tilts.

 

[peeup]

Since day 1 I've been advocating the introduction of Majora Link: He is essentially 3 clones of Link in 1. He transforms between Deku Link, Goron Link, and Zora Link with his neutral special. Deku Link's Up Special gives him the most height and also gives him a parachute effect as he comes down. Goron Link's Down Special is a powder keg that has a massive blast radius and is an effective kill move even at middling percents. Zora Link's Boomerang does heavy damage and also throws out 2 boomerangs at varying arcs. Generally speaking, Deku Link has superior aerial combat and mobility, Goron Link is by far the heaviest and has the strongest smashes, and Zora Link is fastest on the ground and has the best range on his tilts.

 

[Zonderion]

But what happens when you beat classic mode with a Falco skin on your Fox?
Do you get a Fox trophy, or a Falco trophy?
Does the name change to Falco? Does the crowd chant Falco?
Do Falco's properties change, or is he exactly like Fox?
When Kirby sucks up Falco does he wear a Fox hat? Does he have Falco's gun or Fox's? Will Falco's gun be different?
No one in Melee were exact clones, some little things were tweaked for each one.
I wouldn't want to play as a Falco that can't jump high.

I mean it's still a new character, just hidden within another. It's not saving any space, just space on the roster selection screen.
I don't want to have to sift through Fox costumes to find Falco, or Captain Falcon's to find Ganondorf.
It's not doing anything beneficial by putting those characters in the same character slot, just adding more confusion.
It's straight up saying "We don't care about this character enough to give them their own identity".

They just need to keep altering each "clone" character like they did in Brawl.
They each deserve their own slot and individuality.

I am not a fan of these outrageous costume change ideas that turn them into a completely different character.
It takes away from their uniqueness and individuality.
If it's a completely different character, they deserve their own spot.

Also it seems that your major issue lies within characters that do actually have their own spot. Like Falco and Ganondorf. I agree with you in that aspect. If they are a big enough name to have their own spot, then give them that spot and a set of moves that are different enough from others. But if they don't deserve a spot at all, why not have them as an alternate costume (aside from the technical aspects of including them)? Think of it this way, if we have 50 characters, and they all have an exact clone, we have essentially 100 characters, granted half of em have the same moveset as the oher half. That makes 100 representations of nintendo characters where we only have 50. And Sakurai doesn't have to come up with 100 different movesets.

 

[PlayerOneTyler]

Fox could change to Frog and Falco to Rabbit.

You mean... Slippy and Peppy?

 

[Tybis]

You mean... Slippy and Peppy?

No, Frog and Rabbit.

 

[Curmudgeon]

I'd rather have them as separate character slots. Many people will still think clones are wasted space anyways.

 

[RODO]

There should at least be skins, or have the clones sort of in a folder type deal on the character select screen (example: you move over fox, and when you click on him there will be options out to the side to choose falco instead of him being an alt costume)

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

No, Frog and Rabbit.

I'm sure that's what Starfox calls them when no one else is around. "Hey Frog do useful techy things and crap. Oh and stop getting shot! I swear if I have to save you one more time, the bogies on your tail won't be the only thing you have to worry about!"

 

[Zonderion]

You mean... Slippey and Peppy?

Well I feel like the biggest Goofball. Yes, those two... or we can call em Frog and Rabbit.

 

[Shoopdawooper]

May I just propose another clone idea, that includes the mii's?
(Yes, the Mii character, I'm not a fan either. I just had this Idea recently and this thread seems like the place to put it.)

What if, you could play as your mii, who would then get to choose from a selection of outfits, 1 for each unlocked character in the game , which would play as that character, with a few little gameplay tweeks. So what you would get is your mii character, suited up like link or samus, being able to use their moveset, only slightly different. This would essentially give every character a clone, while not feeling as tacked on as clones were, plus, it's a possible way for the mii to be playeble without resorting to stupid tennis gear and whatnot.

Does have a few problems though. Mii's aren't suited to look like any character. A kirby Mii would be troublesome for example, without either drastically changing kirby or the mii. (Unless you happen to look a lot like kirby,... in which case, good luck.) And in my mind, it would take away a bit of the uniqueness of all the characters,... but still. It's an idea...

 

[Zonderion]

May I just propose another clone idea, that includes the mii's?
(Yes, the Mii character, I'm not a fan either. I just had this Idea recently and this thread seems like the place to put it.)

What if, you could play as your mii, who would then get to choose from a selection of outfits, 1 for each unlocked character in the game , which would play as that character, with a few little gameplay tweeks. So what you would get is your mii character, suited up like link or samus, being able to use their moveset, only slightly different. This would essentially give every character a clone, while not feeling as tacked on as clones were, plus, it's a possible way for the mii to be playeble without resorting to stupid tennis gear and whatnot.

Does have a few problems though. Mii's aren't suited to look like any character. A kirby Mii would be troublesome for example, without either drastically changing kirby or the mii. (Unless you happen to look a lot like kirby,... in which case, good luck.) And in my mind, it would take away a bit of the uniqueness of all the characters,... but still. It's an idea...

Not sure if you've played Nintendo Land, but they basically do that for all of the games. You have your Mii and depending on the game you play, you get a costume suited for that game. They have an outfit for Metroid, Link, Mario/Toad, Animal Crossings, and some of the others, can't really recall though. So I think it is possible to have a Mii with those outfits.

Again, the main problem would be customizing the hit boxes to align with the graphics.

 

[Xigger]

You see, people who think like you make games called Dragonball Z Budokai Tenkaichi 3. That is where you will enjoy the comfort of likeminded folks.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

This might be able to work for a few of the characters, like Mario, Monsieur Mumbles. 40 is right out. Artistic value and moveset changes aside, it's a lot of work to double the model count and fighting animations.

 

[Pyra]

I think clones should come back, but only if Mew's in the game.
Juuuust for the sake of the joke.

Just kidding, I'm indifferent.

 

[Xiloh]

come on you guys, its not that difficult...

just imagine that once your selecting a character and you are hovering over Link, these would be your options! http://wantmidnaback.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/ZeldaMiiverse.jpg use your imaginations a little better if that's possible...

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

come on you guys, its not that difficult...

just imagine that once your selecting a character and you are hovering over Link, these would be your options! http://wantmidnaback.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/ZeldaMiiverse.jpg use your imaginations a little better if that's possible...

Yes! I always wanted to be the "new post" button! They thought I was mad, but I'm the only one who isn't!

 

[Xiloh]

Forgive me that I was unable to paste a cropped version of the main picture of my example! Is this better ?>

 

[Xiloh]

Forgive me that I was unable to paste a cropped version of the main picture of my example! Is this better ?>

 

[Xiloh]

So many different individual character iterations, even different versions of Fox, Samus, etc...so many possibilities!

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

Forgive me that I was unable to paste a cropped version of the main picture of my example! Is this better ?>

It wasn't a complaint. I do that to everyone. Though I like this image a lot better.

 

[Xiloh]

<Birusu god of double post! Seriously though clones, were okay then, not really gonna slide nowadays, Sakurai seems to be handling this Sm4sh thing with a better balancing act, also this art style needs to make a come back>

 

[Xigger]

You see, people who think like you make games called Dragonball Z Budokai Tenkaichi 3. That is where you will enjoy the comfort of likeminded folks.