NegaMawile
Smash Cadet
Hi this is my second post here... I think, I don't know really. :| Name's Nicholas, Nixx for short.
I've been doing a lot of thinking about the limited, competitively viable stage selection on the 3DS version based on tournaments and after a bit of research have come to find... there's really no criteria list. That is a terrible thing because we are now being put under a ruleset of subjectivity and in the words of the Blue Blur himself, "That's no good!"
A lot of these ideas are what I've found in the Stage Analysis Discussion Thread (Under Wii U/3DS competitive discussion) and they deserve most of the credit, I think that this thread seperates itself enough to not be buried within that thread.
To start, I'd like to say that I'm not a top level player nor do I intend to act like it. What I am is versed in multiple professionalsports (e.g. Baseball, Basketball, Bowling, etc.) and I will refer to them within this Topic because, and correct me if I'm wrong, the goal of E-Sports is to be as recognized as much as minor sports at the least. Smash is not at that level at this point and this may very well be the last chance we get to achieve this goal.
I chose to focus on stages because it's one thing that competitive minded sports always have a firm grasp on and that Smash, in general does not. Basketball, Football, Darts, Bowling, Soccer, Cricket, League of Legends, Street Fighter, all more popularcompetitvely then Smash have set, static requirements for their fields of play. Smash does not have that luxary available to it, all the stages take design from their mother games and therefore there is no standard formula behind the stages, simply because Smash at it's core isn't made to be competitive, simply having winning and losiing does not make a gamecompetitive; Rock, Paper, Scissors is not a competitive game. We, the community, have made this a competitive game through eliminating and adding certain rulesets to the game, and we have (Read: The Innovators) done an adequate job of doing so but it could be much better in a competitive sense and that starts with the stage.
For this post I will not be comparing Smash to any other Smash game's Stage List (besides Brawl's banning criteria, not necessarily the viability of the stages coming from brawl). I will be starting from every stage of the stagelist and narrowing it down to a competitive few, hopefully resulting in more than we have now. If not then we have fair stagelist and a reason for it to convince the newcomers with objective rules that can be explained.
In conversation withh friends (and not just the ones in my head) I always compare Smash Bros Stages to Baseball Fields, because baseball is the only sport that has a different design for every field. The basic concepts are always the same, all bases 90 feet away the pitchers mound 60 feet away from all bases, and all of the fields facing towards east- north east. Beyond that the rest of the rules are guideline, the dimensions of the field itself differ from stadium to stadium favouring certain types of players more than others but still maintaining fair chance for all managers to succeed. As the Players we are the managers of the characters we play, we are to be given equal oppurtunitues, not the characters.
Therefore all legalization of stages should be based on the Players and not the characters. (I'M FINALLY GETTING TO THE POINT). No stage should attempt to adjust the game's core mechanics, first of all( A fastball won't suddenly boost 10 MPH if you get ten batters out or reach any criteria) that adds false difficulty to the player and is to be avoided because it isn't a skill ained by the Player themselves, but a temporary boost that doesn't serve to make them better and as such does not take skill into account in a competitive sense, Golden Plains and PAC-MAZE are removed from the equation. The stages allowed should be ones that are neutral to both players BEFORE the match starts, meaning that both players have equal oppurtunity to choose all characters and anystage. This immediatley removes stages like Wario Ware and Find Mii for the randomness and unfair advantages and disadvantages it will inevitibly bring to one player or another. This is not to say however that randomness should be removed in it's entierty, to say that would be to get rid of Mr. Game and Watch, Luigi, Peach, Brawl DeDeDe, Villager, Brawl Olimar, and essentially remove one of the main things that seperates Smash from other fighters,ENVIRONMENTAL ADAPTATION.
Environmental Adaptation does not men having all stages luck based as legal but it means having the ones that offer fair play to the person BEFORE they pick up the game. Going back to baseball, all the fields are slightly different, some might have further, home run fences (increasing the viability of small ball and line drive hittters), others closer on one side (increasing the viability of left or right handed hitters and pitchers), and some might have high or low walls, or walls shrouded with vegetation (Detrimental to both sides but still allowed), these are all hazards that teams have to account for but the game's stay fair. You also have to account for wind (Can't throw that Knuckle Ball as effectively without a breeze to back it up), if the grass is covering the baselines or clay does, or turf, (affecting run speed, hindering faster perople more than slower ones, and the ball's trajeectory on the bounce, which benefits or hinders groundball hitters and pitchers). These are all things that create diverse stages and baseball is one of the most objectively balanced sports before teams are added to the equation. We can do the same with Smash, especially the 3DS version where tournaments are overlooked in favour of the more competitively viable Wii U version.
That being said Environmental Adaptation needs to be part of Smash as that's what the genre itself explains itself to be, aPlatform Fighter. Platformers meaning that the game has to have the same or similar charcteristics as a basic Platformer, abusing and avoiding to the platforms and environment in a stage. The fighting aspct comes from the obvious aspect of beating each other up. To make a game competitive means to make it neutral to perfect People before the game. That means knowledge of all characters and all stages where luck does not exist, as even a perfect player can lose to a bad roll of the dice when it comes to WarioWare or Items, or Find Mii etc...
Another goal is to remove degenerate gameplay. You don't have all the baseball fields with walls 250 feet away because that degenerates the game to a home run derby, and you don't have all the walls the size of the green monster because then no one would hit a homerun consistently. Somethings simply give unfair advantages to the everybody with few exceptions, thus the exceptions are what should be overlooked in the data and not the consistent, like a line graph. I bring this up because it was a problem in Brawl where stages were banned based on Metaknight, he was an outlier in the game and not the main source of data, banning stages based off of him is absolutely stupid for that reason. Especially after his majority banning and the stages were not brought back. That leads to us only experiencing limited parts of competitive smash and not knowing who the best is at all objectively fair stages. To think otherwise is to not grasp data in the least and I assume we all passed Grade 2.
Stages that give more or less fair grounds for fighters, as well as eliminate the use of degenerate gameplay and luck based events are the stages we are using for competitive which is great
Battlefield
Final Destination
Prism Tower
Yoshi's Island: Brawl
Arena Ferox
But I argue that there are more in this game. The goal of a community is to grow and seeing the same three stages (It really is only three stages is a lackluster showcase for spectators interested in Smash. Watching FD again and again even with Omega Versions to spice up the field asthetically and sometimes functionally, can get ridiculously boring and we have no reason to take out certain stages because there is no criteria.
Hypothetical: Why is a stage like Brinstar not allowed? Because of acid? Well What does the acid do? Does it directly effect a PERSON playing the game BEFORE character selection? Yes it does. Does it effect both PLAYERS equally? Yes it also does this. Is it Telegraphed and avoidable by other characteristics of the stage? Yes it is, the three Upper Platforms are safe zones that are accessible to all PLAYERS of the game and do not inpeed the flow of battle to great amounts. Instakills should also be taken into account. Great Cave Offensive Danger Zones DECIDE THE EVENT THAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE PLAYER REGARDLESS OF THE PLAYER'S INPUT, that player will die no matter what, if they touch it above 100% and are always there so they cannot be waited out like the acid can. Brinstar Acid does not do this it creates an unfavorable situation yes but it could also be used to the opponents advantage as a tool like the ropes in boxing. The acid does create situations where it can kill but that has to be instigated by a player to happen, meaning it does not enable degenerate play. I can combo into the acid when it's available to get a killjust like I can combo into Rest or a Fire Jump Punch. But it has to be enacted by a player and can be avoided with competent play, and can also be used with it.
We have a lot of stages like that banned from play because of supposed random tactics. But Sports are made to embrace the random, and compitition is made to embrace the random as well as keeping the level of play high and enjoyable. Chess is Random and Chess is Chess where every move is thought out to attack four turns in advance, War is random and attacks are based on chance of weather when looking at their rate of success.
Smash is a game that embraces the random and actively lets you abuse it, that is not to say all randomness is fair, as they could lead to poor play beating out good play and that is not a good indicator of who's the best, what competition is all about. Stages that drastically divert the focus of the match should be removed (e.g. fighting the stage more than the opponent or in a way that directly interferes with engaging the opponent if you can engage at all times the fight is fair PLAYER to PLAYER while it may not be between characters), stages that encourage a game filled with degenerate tactics should be removed (e.g. Camping edges for simple kills-which would limit character choice to a select few characters while most become unviable- circle stalling etc...), and stages that force 2 v 1s should be removed (all sports have a set number of opponents,for both teams if a team breaks that rule and has more than the allowed amount they are penelized)
This removes stages such as:
Wario Ware (Luck based)
Find Mii (Luck based,Fighting the Stage-Mii Monster Thing)
Magicant (Forcing 2 vs 1)
Wily Castle (Drastically Altering focus of the battle-Yellow Devil)
3D Land (Fighting the stage)
Rainbow Road* (Fighting the stage)
Gerudo Valley (Degenerate Tactic: Edge Camping, Also Fighting the Stage-Bridge closing instakill)
Golden Plains (Drastically Altering the focus of the battle-Coins-, Degenerate Tactic: Edge Camping)
Mushroomy Kingdom (Fighting the Stage)
Kongo Jungle* (Fighting the Stage)
Spirit Tracks* (Fighting the Stage)
Dreamland (Fighting the Stage)
Unova Pokemon League (Fighting the Stage, chance to stop the flow of combat Reshiram stops this stage as do stairs to some extent)
FlatZone2 (Fighting the Stage)
Distant Planet* (Fighting the Stage, degenerate tactic: sharking)
Boxing Ring (Degenerate Tactics: Edge and Circle Camping)
Gaur Plains* (Degenerate Tactics: Edge and Circle Camping)
Balloon Fight (Degenerate Tactics: Edge Camping. Fighting the Stage)
Living Room (Degenerate Tactics Edge Camping, Inpeeds the flow of battle, Fighting the Stage)
PictoChat 2 (Degenerate Tactics: Edge Camping, Fighting the Stage)
GreenHill Zone (Degenerate Tactics: Edge Camping, Post Camping, Fighting the stage (Crumbling platforms, further pushing edge camping)
PAC-MAZE (Drastially alters focus of the battle-Ghosts and Pellets)
And allows stages such as:
Battlefield
Final Destinations
Omega Forms
Paper Mario
Brinstar (Explained Above)
Yoshi's Island: Brawl
Corneria* (Stage rarely gets in the way unless camping the bottom or getting hit by the arwing which makes it questionable, the arwings attacks can be intentionally comboed into however, by both players)
Prism Tower
Mute City
Arena Ferox
Reset Bomb Forest
Tortimer Island* Beehive can question this as it may slightly impeed the flow of a battle, no more than a Bomb, Stitch Face or Mr. Saturn from Peach would in my personal opinion.)
Tomadachi Life
* Can be debated very clearlly on both sides. Questionable.
This topic is not to take what we have done from past Smash games and build upon it this is to look at the game as it's own lonely entity with fresh eyes which we have the liberty to do because of the overlooked potential of the 3DS Version of the game to be competitive. A larger variety of stages can net larger spectator, player and community support which we should be striving towards as a relatively underlooked E-Sport/Sport in general.
All Competitive Stages should:
-Be Spectator Friendly
-Be Luck Free
-Not effect the game's core mechanics
-Not add artificial dificulty
-Be considered Neutral Player to Player Before the Match
-Not allow the match to fall to degenerate tactics and succeed
-Not drastically change the focus of the game
-Not be a concern at an equal or greater level as the opponent is
I believe this serves as a solid criteria for a stage list and we get 11.5-16.5 stages out of it which is a lot better than the 6 we have now. Am I in favour of all the stages being legal? No but the ones that I've put are ones that I find can be played on while following the criteria.
The meaning of this is not the stages I've selected but the criteria that we desperatley need. Legal Stages are supposed to be neutral to both characters before the characters are picked, save stages benefitting certain characters for counter picks.
Please feel free to critique my criteria and post your opinion. We are a community after all and we can only unlock the full potential of this overlooked version and maybe change the outlook of SUPER SMASH BROS competitive community as a whole (at least regarding stages :]).
I'm Nixx, I'm a Mawile and Thank you for reading.
I've been doing a lot of thinking about the limited, competitively viable stage selection on the 3DS version based on tournaments and after a bit of research have come to find... there's really no criteria list. That is a terrible thing because we are now being put under a ruleset of subjectivity and in the words of the Blue Blur himself, "That's no good!"
A lot of these ideas are what I've found in the Stage Analysis Discussion Thread (Under Wii U/3DS competitive discussion) and they deserve most of the credit, I think that this thread seperates itself enough to not be buried within that thread.
To start, I'd like to say that I'm not a top level player nor do I intend to act like it. What I am is versed in multiple professionalsports (e.g. Baseball, Basketball, Bowling, etc.) and I will refer to them within this Topic because, and correct me if I'm wrong, the goal of E-Sports is to be as recognized as much as minor sports at the least. Smash is not at that level at this point and this may very well be the last chance we get to achieve this goal.
I chose to focus on stages because it's one thing that competitive minded sports always have a firm grasp on and that Smash, in general does not. Basketball, Football, Darts, Bowling, Soccer, Cricket, League of Legends, Street Fighter, all more popularcompetitvely then Smash have set, static requirements for their fields of play. Smash does not have that luxary available to it, all the stages take design from their mother games and therefore there is no standard formula behind the stages, simply because Smash at it's core isn't made to be competitive, simply having winning and losiing does not make a gamecompetitive; Rock, Paper, Scissors is not a competitive game. We, the community, have made this a competitive game through eliminating and adding certain rulesets to the game, and we have (Read: The Innovators) done an adequate job of doing so but it could be much better in a competitive sense and that starts with the stage.
For this post I will not be comparing Smash to any other Smash game's Stage List (besides Brawl's banning criteria, not necessarily the viability of the stages coming from brawl). I will be starting from every stage of the stagelist and narrowing it down to a competitive few, hopefully resulting in more than we have now. If not then we have fair stagelist and a reason for it to convince the newcomers with objective rules that can be explained.
In conversation withh friends (and not just the ones in my head) I always compare Smash Bros Stages to Baseball Fields, because baseball is the only sport that has a different design for every field. The basic concepts are always the same, all bases 90 feet away the pitchers mound 60 feet away from all bases, and all of the fields facing towards east- north east. Beyond that the rest of the rules are guideline, the dimensions of the field itself differ from stadium to stadium favouring certain types of players more than others but still maintaining fair chance for all managers to succeed. As the Players we are the managers of the characters we play, we are to be given equal oppurtunitues, not the characters.
Therefore all legalization of stages should be based on the Players and not the characters. (I'M FINALLY GETTING TO THE POINT). No stage should attempt to adjust the game's core mechanics, first of all( A fastball won't suddenly boost 10 MPH if you get ten batters out or reach any criteria) that adds false difficulty to the player and is to be avoided because it isn't a skill ained by the Player themselves, but a temporary boost that doesn't serve to make them better and as such does not take skill into account in a competitive sense, Golden Plains and PAC-MAZE are removed from the equation. The stages allowed should be ones that are neutral to both players BEFORE the match starts, meaning that both players have equal oppurtunity to choose all characters and anystage. This immediatley removes stages like Wario Ware and Find Mii for the randomness and unfair advantages and disadvantages it will inevitibly bring to one player or another. This is not to say however that randomness should be removed in it's entierty, to say that would be to get rid of Mr. Game and Watch, Luigi, Peach, Brawl DeDeDe, Villager, Brawl Olimar, and essentially remove one of the main things that seperates Smash from other fighters,ENVIRONMENTAL ADAPTATION.
Environmental Adaptation does not men having all stages luck based as legal but it means having the ones that offer fair play to the person BEFORE they pick up the game. Going back to baseball, all the fields are slightly different, some might have further, home run fences (increasing the viability of small ball and line drive hittters), others closer on one side (increasing the viability of left or right handed hitters and pitchers), and some might have high or low walls, or walls shrouded with vegetation (Detrimental to both sides but still allowed), these are all hazards that teams have to account for but the game's stay fair. You also have to account for wind (Can't throw that Knuckle Ball as effectively without a breeze to back it up), if the grass is covering the baselines or clay does, or turf, (affecting run speed, hindering faster perople more than slower ones, and the ball's trajeectory on the bounce, which benefits or hinders groundball hitters and pitchers). These are all things that create diverse stages and baseball is one of the most objectively balanced sports before teams are added to the equation. We can do the same with Smash, especially the 3DS version where tournaments are overlooked in favour of the more competitively viable Wii U version.
That being said Environmental Adaptation needs to be part of Smash as that's what the genre itself explains itself to be, aPlatform Fighter. Platformers meaning that the game has to have the same or similar charcteristics as a basic Platformer, abusing and avoiding to the platforms and environment in a stage. The fighting aspct comes from the obvious aspect of beating each other up. To make a game competitive means to make it neutral to perfect People before the game. That means knowledge of all characters and all stages where luck does not exist, as even a perfect player can lose to a bad roll of the dice when it comes to WarioWare or Items, or Find Mii etc...
Another goal is to remove degenerate gameplay. You don't have all the baseball fields with walls 250 feet away because that degenerates the game to a home run derby, and you don't have all the walls the size of the green monster because then no one would hit a homerun consistently. Somethings simply give unfair advantages to the everybody with few exceptions, thus the exceptions are what should be overlooked in the data and not the consistent, like a line graph. I bring this up because it was a problem in Brawl where stages were banned based on Metaknight, he was an outlier in the game and not the main source of data, banning stages based off of him is absolutely stupid for that reason. Especially after his majority banning and the stages were not brought back. That leads to us only experiencing limited parts of competitive smash and not knowing who the best is at all objectively fair stages. To think otherwise is to not grasp data in the least and I assume we all passed Grade 2.
Stages that give more or less fair grounds for fighters, as well as eliminate the use of degenerate gameplay and luck based events are the stages we are using for competitive which is great
Battlefield
Final Destination
Prism Tower
Yoshi's Island: Brawl
Arena Ferox
But I argue that there are more in this game. The goal of a community is to grow and seeing the same three stages (It really is only three stages is a lackluster showcase for spectators interested in Smash. Watching FD again and again even with Omega Versions to spice up the field asthetically and sometimes functionally, can get ridiculously boring and we have no reason to take out certain stages because there is no criteria.
Hypothetical: Why is a stage like Brinstar not allowed? Because of acid? Well What does the acid do? Does it directly effect a PERSON playing the game BEFORE character selection? Yes it does. Does it effect both PLAYERS equally? Yes it also does this. Is it Telegraphed and avoidable by other characteristics of the stage? Yes it is, the three Upper Platforms are safe zones that are accessible to all PLAYERS of the game and do not inpeed the flow of battle to great amounts. Instakills should also be taken into account. Great Cave Offensive Danger Zones DECIDE THE EVENT THAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE PLAYER REGARDLESS OF THE PLAYER'S INPUT, that player will die no matter what, if they touch it above 100% and are always there so they cannot be waited out like the acid can. Brinstar Acid does not do this it creates an unfavorable situation yes but it could also be used to the opponents advantage as a tool like the ropes in boxing. The acid does create situations where it can kill but that has to be instigated by a player to happen, meaning it does not enable degenerate play. I can combo into the acid when it's available to get a killjust like I can combo into Rest or a Fire Jump Punch. But it has to be enacted by a player and can be avoided with competent play, and can also be used with it.
We have a lot of stages like that banned from play because of supposed random tactics. But Sports are made to embrace the random, and compitition is made to embrace the random as well as keeping the level of play high and enjoyable. Chess is Random and Chess is Chess where every move is thought out to attack four turns in advance, War is random and attacks are based on chance of weather when looking at their rate of success.
Smash is a game that embraces the random and actively lets you abuse it, that is not to say all randomness is fair, as they could lead to poor play beating out good play and that is not a good indicator of who's the best, what competition is all about. Stages that drastically divert the focus of the match should be removed (e.g. fighting the stage more than the opponent or in a way that directly interferes with engaging the opponent if you can engage at all times the fight is fair PLAYER to PLAYER while it may not be between characters), stages that encourage a game filled with degenerate tactics should be removed (e.g. Camping edges for simple kills-which would limit character choice to a select few characters while most become unviable- circle stalling etc...), and stages that force 2 v 1s should be removed (all sports have a set number of opponents,for both teams if a team breaks that rule and has more than the allowed amount they are penelized)
This removes stages such as:
Wario Ware (Luck based)
Find Mii (Luck based,Fighting the Stage-Mii Monster Thing)
Magicant (Forcing 2 vs 1)
Wily Castle (Drastically Altering focus of the battle-Yellow Devil)
3D Land (Fighting the stage)
Rainbow Road* (Fighting the stage)
Gerudo Valley (Degenerate Tactic: Edge Camping, Also Fighting the Stage-Bridge closing instakill)
Golden Plains (Drastically Altering the focus of the battle-Coins-, Degenerate Tactic: Edge Camping)
Mushroomy Kingdom (Fighting the Stage)
Kongo Jungle* (Fighting the Stage)
Spirit Tracks* (Fighting the Stage)
Dreamland (Fighting the Stage)
Unova Pokemon League (Fighting the Stage, chance to stop the flow of combat Reshiram stops this stage as do stairs to some extent)
FlatZone2 (Fighting the Stage)
Distant Planet* (Fighting the Stage, degenerate tactic: sharking)
Boxing Ring (Degenerate Tactics: Edge and Circle Camping)
Gaur Plains* (Degenerate Tactics: Edge and Circle Camping)
Balloon Fight (Degenerate Tactics: Edge Camping. Fighting the Stage)
Living Room (Degenerate Tactics Edge Camping, Inpeeds the flow of battle, Fighting the Stage)
PictoChat 2 (Degenerate Tactics: Edge Camping, Fighting the Stage)
GreenHill Zone (Degenerate Tactics: Edge Camping, Post Camping, Fighting the stage (Crumbling platforms, further pushing edge camping)
PAC-MAZE (Drastially alters focus of the battle-Ghosts and Pellets)
And allows stages such as:
Battlefield
Final Destinations
Omega Forms
Paper Mario
Brinstar (Explained Above)
Yoshi's Island: Brawl
Corneria* (Stage rarely gets in the way unless camping the bottom or getting hit by the arwing which makes it questionable, the arwings attacks can be intentionally comboed into however, by both players)
Prism Tower
Mute City
Arena Ferox
Reset Bomb Forest
Tortimer Island* Beehive can question this as it may slightly impeed the flow of a battle, no more than a Bomb, Stitch Face or Mr. Saturn from Peach would in my personal opinion.)
Tomadachi Life
* Can be debated very clearlly on both sides. Questionable.
This topic is not to take what we have done from past Smash games and build upon it this is to look at the game as it's own lonely entity with fresh eyes which we have the liberty to do because of the overlooked potential of the 3DS Version of the game to be competitive. A larger variety of stages can net larger spectator, player and community support which we should be striving towards as a relatively underlooked E-Sport/Sport in general.
All Competitive Stages should:
-Be Spectator Friendly
-Be Luck Free
-Not effect the game's core mechanics
-Not add artificial dificulty
-Be considered Neutral Player to Player Before the Match
-Not allow the match to fall to degenerate tactics and succeed
-Not drastically change the focus of the game
-Not be a concern at an equal or greater level as the opponent is
I believe this serves as a solid criteria for a stage list and we get 11.5-16.5 stages out of it which is a lot better than the 6 we have now. Am I in favour of all the stages being legal? No but the ones that I've put are ones that I find can be played on while following the criteria.
The meaning of this is not the stages I've selected but the criteria that we desperatley need. Legal Stages are supposed to be neutral to both characters before the characters are picked, save stages benefitting certain characters for counter picks.
Please feel free to critique my criteria and post your opinion. We are a community after all and we can only unlock the full potential of this overlooked version and maybe change the outlook of SUPER SMASH BROS competitive community as a whole (at least regarding stages :]).
I'm Nixx, I'm a Mawile and Thank you for reading.
