A complex issue about extremely defensive play.

[CaP_Omega]

Note: As this might seem like complaining to some (really, I can't state how many times I've simply tried to explain something and it's been pointed out as childish whining) and as much as I want to complain about it, I have to make clear that I'm trying to look at this situation in an objective manner by looking at this from the perspective of having a learning dilemma and from the perspective that this game does have meta imbalances at the same time, because I know I have trouble learning things and I know this game is flawed, and I just want to figure out which attribute is more prevalent in this situation that much. With my respects to the almighty Iwata, I say, "please understand".

​

It has become pretty evident to me that I struggle against extremely defensive players in Smash 4, and I can't seem to find a pattern with them. Whatever strategic move they try to make seems to usually be out of a roll if they make any other sort of movement at all, but I can't grasp anything beyond that because they appear to use attacks in a very similar manner but at different times. This adds to an inconsistency factor. While I realize that inconsistency is an important part of a developing meta, I find that there are many more inconsistencies in defensive play than aggressive or passive play, which makes me believe that this game works in the favor of avoidance. But why is that in its essence preventing me from learning and developing if I see that as the situation?

After closely analyzing the actions of many players online that play extremely defensively and my actions going in and in response, I've come up with a few possible answers:

• False confusion tactics: my opponent constantly inputs moves that cannot be punished.

If there is one thing needs to be elaborated first, it is that I am not talking about a situation where I directly dodge an attack and any attempts I could possibly make to follow up are futile. To my knowledge, those situations do not exist in Smash 4.
False confusion tactics involves making certain moves that are not punishable nor strategic. This can translate to "swatting at air" or "whiffing without a target". When an opponent couples avoidance with false confusion tactics they can create the illusion that they have nothing to punish. It becomes glaringly obvious that this is their goal when they use multiple smash attacks at a long range distance if I am using a character that does not have any long range attacks. Fighting this strategy requires a lot of patience and focus for me, but I often start losing patience and focus if the fight is consistently stale, so my sense of strategy starts to deteriorate.

• Lack of rhythm: my style becomes too wild.

Playing against defensive strategies becomes progressively more difficult as I have no desire to deal with more formulaic styles.

• CPU telegraphing: witless strategy comes into play.

While the patterns of a CPU opponent are permissible as they are programmed to do what they do, telegraphing their techniques is a very negative tactic. Telegraphing results in high reward with little effort, but it makes a significant gap between those that copy CPU strategies and those that learn the nature of the character they use, with that gap being experience. Learning the motions and choice of attacks for a CPU is rather difficult for me, though, as I just don't have the want to use a formula that delays the battle.


Needless to say but provoking nonetheless; I have some issues going on in my head. Why I provoke these issues is definitely my fault, because pretty much the only thing that I've been doing all day for the past couple months has been playing Smash. But I'm all ears now, so if there is anything I can do better, I'd love to hear it.
Or shoot me down. I know all the cool kids do that.

 

[Mrkaoz]

I love to play against defensive players. Makes me think about my tactics, how can I be sure that he can't defend me. Fights like these makes me better as a smash player.

 

[CaP_Omega]

I love to play against defensive players. Makes me think about my tactics, how can I be sure that he can't defend me. Fights like these makes me better as a smash player.

Yeah I feel ya. I just lose patience too fast. . .

 

[Mrkaoz]

I understand the frustration and I also lose my patience sometimes. But if you also play defensively your opponent has no other option to play in a more attacking way. Just reverse psychology the fight or something like that. You know what I mean.... Right?

 

[Semopo]

Defensive play is rewarding in this game. I like this. Sometimes. Most of the time "defensive play" is rolling around.

Be patient. If you are patient... Be more patient.

They force you to play their game, if you oblige they can do whatever they want. Focus and sting, retreat, rinse, repeat

 

[CaP_Omega]

I understand the frustration and I also lose my patience sometimes. But if you also play defensively your opponent has no other option to play in a more attacking way. Just reverse psychology the fight or something like that. You know what I mean.... Right?

. . . I don't know why I never thought of that .-.
Wow. I shall try my best to make proper use of your advice. Thank you muchly.

Defensive play is rewarding in this game. I like this. Sometimes. Most of the time "defensive play" is rolling around.

Be patient. If you are patient... Be more patient.

They force you to play their game, if you oblige they can do whatever they want. Focus and sting, retreat, rinse, repeat

PATIENTING.

That's pretty darn insightful - never realized that was what they did. Thank you for the advice and encouragement.

 

[Mrkaoz]

Glad I could help you out and good luck on the Battlefield!

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I have 3 styles of play online for 3 different types of situations.

1. Roll Around Recklessly

Opponent type : Noob

If my opponent is a beginner, has no command of his character, doesn't understand what they are doing, I just smash buttons until they are dead. Opponents of this type generally have low win rates and are generally on the low end of experience at Smash. Simply stringing all my moves together violently and generally just flailing will defeat them. These players are the kinds that feel "bodied" all the time.

2. Approach with safe abilities, consistently aggressing

Opponent type : Average

This is what I use most often. It will win me most of my matches, as my opponent may have an acceptable amount of knowledge on their character, but they don't yet know the finer points of covering their punish windows. I can play relatively aggressively, using my offense as a defense on these players. My punish windows are generally not fully taken advantage so I can still afford to be a little reckless.

3. Defensive, hit/string fishing

Opponent type : Skilled

This is the play style that may be annoying you. This is generally how a handful of experienced Brawl players are inclined to play, as it was the most effective method of neutral gaming with your opponent in Brawl. This method is the "safe" way to play versus skilled players who will find an opening if you let them, so being extra careful and trying to bait an attack you can punish is worth it if you don't want to get on the wrong side of a Marth Fsmash.

The issue is, in online play, people will a lot of the time default to the defensive play style because of a variety of things like input lag, especially. Scared for their win %, any number of reasons, no matter where their opponent stands in terms of skill.

You just have to learn the neutral game, how to psyche and bait your opponent in to an attack, and then you strike. Don't get frustrated with a defensive player, learn from them because you need those skills against highly trained players to avoid getting string trained to death.

 

[EgeDal]

Defensive play is rewarding in this game. I like this. Sometimes. Most of the time "defensive play" is rolling around.

Be patient. If you are patient... Be more patient.

They force you to play their game, if you oblige they can do whatever they want. Focus and sting, retreat, rinse, repeat

There's nothing else left to say.
Don't play their game, make them lose their patience instead.

see you at sudden death bit ch

 

[CaP_Omega]

I have 3 styles of play online for 3 different types of situations.

1. Roll Around Recklessly

Opponent type : Noob

If my opponent is a beginner, has no command of his character, doesn't understand what they are doing, I just smash buttons until they are dead. Opponents of this type generally have low win rates and are generally on the low end of experience at Smash. Simply stringing all my moves together violently and generally just flailing will defeat them. These players are the kinds that feel "bodied" all the time.

2. Approach with safe abilities, consistently aggressing

Opponent type : Average

This is what I use most often. It will win me most of my matches, as my opponent may have an acceptable amount of knowledge on their character, but they don't yet know the finer points of covering their punish windows. I can play relatively aggressively, using my offense as a defense on these players. My punish windows are generally not fully taken advantage so I can still afford to be a little reckless.

3. Defensive, hit/string fishing

Opponent type : Skilled

This is the play style that may be annoying you. This is generally how a handful of experienced Brawl players are inclined to play, as it was the most effective method of neutral gaming with your opponent in Brawl. This method is the "safe" way to play versus skilled players who will find an opening if you let them, so being extra careful and trying to bait an attack you can punish is worth it if you don't want to get on the wrong side of a Marth Fsmash.

The issue is, in online play, people will a lot of the time default to the defensive play style because of a variety of things like input lag, especially. Scared for their win %, any number of reasons, no matter where their opponent stands in terms of skill.

You just have to learn the neutral game, how to psyche and bait your opponent in to an attack, and then you strike. Don't get frustrated with a defensive player, learn from them because you need those skills against highly trained players to avoid getting string trained to death.

I have noticed that I've been gravitating toward this type of strategy mixup as of recent, although I will usually be much more aggressive with skilled players and get mixed results. That said, it's probably time for me to practice safe baiting.
Spectacular advice! Thank you very much!

 

[Mrkaoz]

I recently joined this forum. But I have to say this: It's amazing to see how open and friendly everybody is on this forum to help each other. Haven't seen a forum like this in a loooooong time.

 

[SuaveChaser]

you pretty much have to out camp them? I like playing agressively but that ends up in some losses from time to time due how much defensive play is rewarded.

 

[CaP_Omega]

you pretty much have to out camp them? I like playing agressively but that ends up in some losses from time to time due how much defensive play is rewarded.

Same here - playing on offense is addictive to me but it seems to be the detriment to my stride most of the time. Camping does appear to be a much more effective route to success when going up against defense, though.

 

[Raijinken]

I play a style that I call, paradoxically, defensive aggression. Instead of sitting around spamming projectiles to harass (Robin literally can't for an extended time due to tome limits, and Marth and Shulk lack projectiles), I constantly run (or walk. @KumaOso loves to point out the power of walking, and I agree with him) in and either hop-nair backwards, or roll backwards (depending on my character and my opponent). This may fall under what you call "false confusion" tactics, but it's intended, at least by me, to lure you into a punishable state. If you keep expecting my evasion and thus stop reacting, I can then go for a real hit. If you try to read my evasion, I still have a jump and more or less half of my mobility options to bail if it goes wrong. It's the closest I can approximate to the "flexibility" of dash-dancing or wavedashing. In some cases, especially Shulk, I can typically get close enough to chip at your shield while maintaining a safe enough distance to bail.

I treat defensive play as a test of strategy, while I treat aggressive play as a test of reflex. My reflex sucks, my strategy is somewhat better, so I try to play a hybrid of the two that keeps things interesting (at least for me) while also catering to my character's strengths (Marth's aerials, tipping a punish, etc).

 

[CURRY]

Everyone keeps saying that defensive play is more rewarded in this game than aggressive, but I dunno, I find it kind of easy, but it might be because I'm not playing against people good enough.
My level of play is actually still a really, really low ceiling in terms of skill, but I still feel... better than others? The low ceiling is frustrating-- simply because of the fact that I can't learn. Really though, none of my friends aren't into the competitive scene, and Wifi isn't applicable for me, since I get about ~1/4 sec to one whole sec of lag, and my playstyle seems to depend on either aggression or punishes, although that might be because again, since all these people spam extremely laggy and/or punishable moves, e.g. Bowser Bomb, Bowser dair, Falcon Kick, etc. etc. Although easy to punish, they still require semi-decent spacing: enough to get out of the way safely, with a spotdodge, roll, or simply dash away, but also staying close enough to punish (with that god**** little knife that Marth has)
"Whiffing at air", as mentioned in the OP, is really a safe option for me in Wifi with Toon because of my lag, and I either have to get a read, or get something with a long-duration or long-ranged hitbox. Still punishable, but pretty safe, and kind of puts your opponent in a trap. Not very fun for both the camper and the victim, honestly.
I'm pretty bad on Wifi, really, and my For Glory stats are absolutely horrendous, but I really don't think being a Wifi warrior is the way to go. Just not my preference to play people online because of my lag. I kind of find it useful to have mained Marth and Toon in Brawl, as my playstyles with both of them are polar opposites-- Toon of course, camps, but going aggressive is fun as well, albeit a LOT harder with his buffered fullhop Nair not hitting grounded, short characters, as well as his nerfed Zair. Zair seems like a good aerial retaliation, though, as the aerial ending lag was REALLY reduced.
Marth... maybe my playstyle with him just doesn't fit Wifi, really. I kind of either like going aggressive, or try to bait and punish people who rush me down, although strict spacing + nerfed range on his sword doesn't make for a good wifi character.

I'm sorry if all that I said was completely wrong, since there are probably people with much better Internet connection than me, and maybe being aggressive is harder, but I really don't know what to believe, as MANY people playing Smash 4 are transferring from Melee, which REALLY doesn't reward campy playstyle. Campy playstyles work in Brawl sometimes; it really depends on the situation you're in, but yeah, is it just the sudden change?

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I just wanted to clarify on my #3 a little more.

It's easy to confuse Defensive play with "Keep Away" play.

In Smash, defensive play simply means you are not allowing any of your punish windows to show, which means you are using a small subset of your available options to attack in hopes that your opponent runs headfirst. So in that sense, playing defensively does not necessarily mean you are not attacking. Properly spaced aerial approaches with no risk of high landing lag getting you punished, air dodging through your opponent to bait a move with high ending lag so you can punish your opponent, "fishing" by using a decently ranged tilt to serve as a defensive hitbox "wall" in the direction of your opponent. @ Raijinken describes it as defensive aggression, but really that is just a good description of proper defensive play. So, in essence, my #3 is similar to his post above.

In online play, many players spend a lot of time playing "Keep Away" until they feel absolutely safe to make a move, and or they are in a proper position to spam projectiles. That is not proper defensive play. That is Keep Away, and Keep Away is looked down upon in almost any fighting game. Keep Away is the act of simply running away, using any and all methods to avoid being hit, but refusing to act in retaliation. Despite this, Keep Away is still a really strong option with projectile characters. It is still a valid tactic, as the game doesn't ban you to the bowls of offline mode for doing it, so you still need to figure out a way to counter it. This can be done, again, by baiting them to move out of their element and actually attack. So really those players just take patience. I will agree that it is frustrating, however, to play against frequently, but with online frequently presenting input delay to some players, it's understandable some may find that as the safest way to consistently win.

 

[25%Cotton]

honestly, i do a lot of intentional whiffing, especially with fast characters, espespecially against defensive players. but it's less an attempt to hit or bait them than it is expessing that i want to be moving more. it's also a way to keep my fingers busy and alert so i don't fall asleep.

 

[CaP_Omega]

Everyone keeps saying that defensive play is more rewarded in this game than aggressive, but I dunno, I find it kind of easy, but it might be because I'm not playing against people good enough.
My level of play is actually still a really, really low ceiling in terms of skill, but I still feel... better than others? The low ceiling is frustrating-- simply because of the fact that I can't learn. Really though, none of my friends aren't into the competitive scene, and Wifi isn't applicable for me, since I get about ~1/4 sec to one whole sec of lag, and my playstyle seems to depend on either aggression or punishes, although that might be because again, since all these people spam extremely laggy and/or punishable moves, e.g. Bowser Bomb, Bowser dair, Falcon Kick, etc. etc. Although easy to punish, they still require semi-decent spacing: enough to get out of the way safely, with a spotdodge, roll, or simply dash away, but also staying close enough to punish (with that god**** little knife that Marth has)
"Whiffing at air", as mentioned in the OP, is really a safe option for me in Wifi with Toon because of my lag, and I either have to get a read, or get something with a long-duration or long-ranged hitbox. Still punishable, but pretty safe, and kind of puts your opponent in a trap. Not very fun for both the camper and the victim, honestly.
I'm pretty bad on Wifi, really, and my For Glory stats are absolutely horrendous, but I really don't think being a Wifi warrior is the way to go. Just not my preference to play people online because of my lag. I kind of find it useful to have mained Marth and Toon in Brawl, as my playstyles with both of them are polar opposites-- Toon of course, camps, but going aggressive is fun as well, albeit a LOT harder with his buffered fullhop Nair not hitting grounded, short characters, as well as his nerfed Zair. Zair seems like a good aerial retaliation, though, as the aerial ending lag was REALLY reduced.
Marth... maybe my playstyle with him just doesn't fit Wifi, really. I kind of either like going aggressive, or try to bait and punish people who rush me down, although strict spacing + nerfed range on his sword doesn't make for a good wifi character.

I'm sorry if all that I said was completely wrong, since there are probably people with much better Internet connection than me, and maybe being aggressive is harder, but I really don't know what to believe, as MANY people playing Smash 4 are transferring from Melee, which REALLY doesn't reward campy playstyle. Campy playstyles work in Brawl sometimes; it really depends on the situation you're in, but yeah, is it just the sudden change?

Well to be honest, most of what you said seems pretty accurate, especially the bit about spacing. What I find less accurate, however, is the assumption that more Smash 4 players have strong roots in Melee. If that were the case, I believe we'd be finding a lot more talent online (while it's not pertinent to the subject at hand, I think I should say that I know other Smash games do take effort if you want to be good at them. People who are highly knowledgeable of the meta in Melee just seem to be more capable).

I just wanted to clarify on my #3 a little more.

It's easy to confuse Defensive play with "Keep Away" play.

In Smash, defensive play simply means you are not allowing any of your punish windows to show, which means you are using a small subset of your available options to attack in hopes that your opponent runs headfirst. So in that sense, playing defensively does not necessarily mean you are not attacking. Properly spaced aerial approaches with no risk of high landing lag getting you punished, air dodging through your opponent to bait a move with high ending lag so you can punish your opponent, "fishing" by using a decently ranged tilt to serve as a defensive hitbox "wall" in the direction of your opponent. @ Raijinken describes it as defensive aggression, but really that is just a good description of proper defensive play. So, in essence, my #3 is similar to his post above.

In online play, many players spend a lot of time playing "Keep Away" until they feel absolutely safe to make a move, and or they are in a proper position to spam projectiles. That is not proper defensive play. That is Keep Away, and Keep Away is looked down upon in almost any fighting game. Keep Away is the act of simply running away, using any and all methods to avoid being hit, but refusing to act in retaliation. Despite this, Keep Away is still a really strong option with projectile characters. It is still a valid tactic, as the game doesn't ban you to the bowls of offline mode for doing it, so you still need to figure out a way to counter it. This can be done, again, by baiting them to move out of their element and actually attack. So really those players just take patience. I will agree that it is frustrating, however, to play against frequently, but with online frequently presenting input delay to some players, it's understandable some may find that as the safest way to consistently win.

Just as before, very well said. I believe the makeup of a keep away strategy does indeed match my description of the playstyle of subject.

honestly, i do a lot of intentional whiffing, especially with fast characters, espespecially against defensive players. but it's less an attempt to hit or bait them than it is expessing that i want to be moving more. it's also a way to keep my fingers busy and alert so i don't fall asleep.

That's totally fine in my eyes - in fact, that's a use of false whiffing I would encourage. What really makes false whiffing frustrating for me is when it's used purely to make it seem like a move is nonpunishable. That said, I really do appreciate that you found a positive way to use that technique.