3DS Stage Discussion ( not Wii U )

[leekslap]

OK, yeah I know " There is already a stagelist thread! ", but everybody in that thread talks about the Wii U version. Whenever I try to start discussion on the 3DS, most people practically ignore me and it's as if what I'm saying isn't part of the actual discussion. I'm getting fed up with it and so this thread was born! 3DS is not completely inferior to Wii U, OK? Tourneys are easier to host, custom moves can easily be legal, and it is portable! As long as you have the new 3DS XL, the graphics, lag, and controls should be fine.

Now for the stagelist :

Starter Stages :
- Final Destination and Omegas ( count as one stage, but if counterpicked to FD, you can pick whichever Omega you want and if chosen before first match, you have to agree to the version of FD )
- Battlefield
- Yoshi's Island
Counterpicks :
- Prism Tower
- Tomodachi Life
- Arena Ferox
- Brinstar

There might be more options depending on whether walkoffs are fine or not, but that's my stagelist after rigorous testing. If you are wondering why certain stages are banned :

Reset Bomb Forest - Pikachu is beyond broken in this stage. Plus it's kind of a mess.
Corneria - Great Fox laser is extremely powerful and edgeguards for you, Arwing/Wolfen comes out too often and messes everyone up, overpowered camping spot in right side, and all around just messes with the flow of the battle too much.
Rainbow Road - Worse version of Prism Tower.
Pac Maze - Runaway way too strong and too many distractions.
Tortimer Island - Fruit and it's a gamble since it changes the layout every time you pick it. IGN REVIEW Too much water 7/10
Paper Mario - Windboxes, walkoffs, moving ledges, hazardous transitions, the list is endless.
Mute City - Practically no edgeguarding and road is too strong.
Jungle Japes - Quite literally blows every other stage out of the water in terms of hazard strength.
Unova Pokemon League - Really wanted this one for it Pokemon Stadium layout but Reshiram and Zekrom are too strong a hazard.
Gaur Plains - The easiest stage to circle camp/runaway ever in Smash history. Disgusting.

May the discussion commence! READ ENTIRE THREAD BEFORE POSTING PL0X TY

 

[leekslap]

Reserving this post for later. If you guys want something to discuss about, Reset Bomb Forest is the one I did the least testing about and I'm having doubts about it's current banning.

P.S. Corneria is my favorite banned stage.

 

[Sideslick]

I personally want Jungle Japes to be a legal stage.

It makes for exciting games, and it's almost all player-controlled (Klaptrap is the only non-player element, and is almost a non-issue). If you don't want to be caught by the stage hazard, don't get caught under the stage.

I fail to see how it is any more different than any other counterpicks.

Brinstar has lava. Jungle Japes' river is essentially just a more-consistent (yet admittedly more-punishing) version of that.

 

[Kofu]

I so far feel that Reset Bomb Forest is fine. You'll have to elaborate on why Pikachu is more broken on it than other mobile characters. They're obviously going to have am advantage when put up against slower characters.

I am also in support for Gaur Plains, or at least testing it. The walkoffs are in an interesting position that makes camping there highly risky (most characters can safely punish them from below). The layout lends itself to a much more aerial battle style, which requires a different way of thinking when fighting that I enjoy. The only real argument against it I could see would be for circle camping against slower characters (or Little Mac).

 

[leekslap]

I personally want Jungle Japes to be a legal stage.

It makes for exciting games, and it's almost all player-controlled (Klaptrap is the only non-player element, and is almost a non-issue). If you don't want to be caught by the stage hazard, don't get caught under the stage.

I fail to see how it is any more different than any other counterpicks.

Brinstar has lava. Jungle Japes' river is essentially just a more-consistent (yet admittedly more-punishing) version of that.

Brinstar's lava is weaker like you mentioned, but it is also periodically. You don't have lava constantly under the stage. And when it does rise up, it's as slow as a tortoise, so it is your fault for getting hit by it. Jungle Japes' hazards are so strong that it's possible to just forward tilt someone offstage and kill them instantly with the stupid Klaptrap ( Bowser Jr did this to me once at the very beginning of the match ). The strength of the hazard encourages strageties to use it. Strategies that I personally don't like.

I so far feel that Reset Bomb Forest is fine. You'll have to elaborate on why Pikachu is more broken on it than other mobile characters. They're obviously going to have am advantage when put up against slower characters.

I am also in support for Gaur Plains, or at least testing it. The walkoffs are in an interesting position that makes camping there highly risky (most characters can safely punish them from below). The layout lends itself to a much more aerial battle style, which requires a different way of thinking when fighting that I enjoy. The only real argument against it I could see would be for circle camping against slower characters (or Little Mac).

Because of Quick Attack. Gives him beyond insane pressure and movement options on this stage.

I personally don't like walkoffs because it takes the edgeguarding out of the game. But yeah, Gaur Plains is the best walkoff stage.

 

[leekslap]

Gaur Plains is the best walkoff stage.

Man how I was wrong! It's even easier to runaway and abuse things on Gaur Plains than it is on Pac Maze! Which is making me want to consider Pac Maze. Guys I'm gonna need some input on Pac Maze and Reset Bomb Forest. Analyze them. Why would you counterpick to those stages? What do they add that isn't in another stage? Do the hazards heavily affect play or not?

 

[Sideslick]

The strength of [Jungle Japes' river] encourages strageties to use it. Strategies that I personally don't like.

Some people don't like wavedashing as a tactic in Melee.

Some people don't like how campy characters like Jigglypuff can be.

Some people don't like when peope use Ganondorf's side-B for suicide KOs.

There will always be strategies people don't like.

 

[NegaMawile]

I don't understand why people don't like Paper Mario. Besides the Windbox nothing goes out of its way to kill you, and Bowser's gate. It's competitively fair as it gives equal opportunity to both players before the character selection screen meaning both players can choose characters that perform well on it as well as stage strike it. And it has a single walk off out of six possible walk offs during the stages transitions.

Reset Bomb Forest is okay to me as well. The hazard is non intrusive, it's caves of life break easily, and it has nothing similar to it on the stage list.

My personal stage list is...

Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Prism Tower

Counter Pick:
Arena Ferox
Tomadachi Life
Brinstar
Reset Bomb Forest
Paper Mario

Giving 9 stages, meaning 2 strikes per stage selection. So if I chose Ganondorf I'd ban Reset Bomb Forest and Paper Mario, as Ganondorf performs the worst there, due to mobility.

Maybe 3 stage strikes. I'm not sure what the proper etiquette should be for strikes as I'm not sure where all characters shine or fall.

 

[leekslap]

Some people don't like wavedashing as a tactic in Melee.

Some people don't like how campy characters like Jigglypuff can be.

Some people don't like when peope use Ganondorf's side-B for suicide KOs.

There will always be strategies people don't like.

Those strategies are either literally part of the character or part of the mechanics of the entire game! In Jungle Japes, character would never be able to simply push someone offstage and let the water kill them for cheap kills in any other stage. Brinstar lava is something you have to watch out for that isn't as easy to use as Jungle Japes stuff. Like Corneria, battles are much more different than on the current legal stages. Good stages are supposed to let the game be itself without any other things affecting the strategy of the battle or at least unpredictable and sudden things are pretty bad.

I don't understand why people don't like Paper Mario. Besides the Windbox nothing goes out of its way to kill you, and Bowser's gate. It's competitively fair as it gives equal opportunity to both players before the character selection screen meaning both players can choose characters that perform well on it as well as stage strike it. And it has a single walk off out of six possible walk offs during the stages transitions.

Reset Bomb Forest is okay to me as well. The hazard is non intrusive, it's caves of life break easily, and it has nothing similar to it on the stage list.

My personal stage list is...

Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Prism Tower

Counter Pick:
Arena Ferox
Tomadachi Life
Brinstar
Reset Bomb Forest
Paper Mario

Giving 9 stages, meaning 2 strikes per stage selection. So if I chose Ganondorf I'd ban Reset Bomb Forest and Paper Mario, as Ganondorf performs the worst there, due to mobility.

Maybe 3 stage strikes. I'm not sure what the proper etiquette should be for strikes as I'm not sure where all characters shine or fall.

It's not competively fair at all. Let me start with the first transition. Right off the bat, there's a walkoff that can easily be abused through camping and early kills, a camping spot right of the pipe which also sets up sharking and zero lag aerials with the bounciness of the pipe, and walls that mess up combos. Then the fan comes up. That shiz is way stronger than in Dreamland. It doesn't kill you but it doesn't have to in order to be a hazard. Now walls can be abused even more, anybody recovering from the right side is f*cked, and you just can't do the stuff you want to do in general. The fan goes off and here comes transition number 2. The cloud plate thing hanging on a string goes up and, unlike Prism Tower and Arena Ferox, it kills you. If you were abusing the walkoff, you gotta recover now except one of the highlights of the boat part is it's moving ledges so again, you are f*cked. This is the best part of the stage IMO, but it still has its problems : the curvature of the stage can mess up projectiles and combos, it's a little too big, there's a part where a whale lifts the ship up and makes vertical KOs unfairly easy in the process, and like I mentioned, the moving ledges move too much. Then the Bowser section. Dear lord, don't even get me started on this thing. I think you get the point so I will stop.

I would have prefered more but OK.

Number of starter stages have to be odd so that each player gets an equal amount of bans. Prism Tower also has a big advantage for characters with good recoveries( they can go under the stage and shark ), characters with bad recoveries( many Randall style saves in the stage's transitions ), and strong characters( some parts of the stage make it very easy to KO ), so it's not neutral at all.

Pac Maze turned out to be terrible btw. Now I'm setting my sights on Reset Bomb Forest and expect a lengthy analysis.

 

[NegaMawile]

I was just testing something out that I remembered reading from the main stage analysist thread.

Reset Bomb Forest
Wily's Castle
Tortimer's Island
And Rainbow Road

Do something fantastic during four player local multiplayer (albeit to varying degrees)

They remove certain parts of the stage.

Reset Bomb Forest removes all caves of life from the second portion. Making the stage perfectly fine. As all arguments point to that being the reason why it's not allowed.

Wily's Castle disappoints because it removes all the hazards that make it not just the Omega version and keeps Yellow Devil. Sigh...

Tortimer island has Kapp'n not show up with the boat. But keeps the fruit. So that's decent I suppose.

And Rainbow Road gets rid of the shy guys. Making it perfectly fine as well. Calling it a worse prism tower is subjective and should not take away from its competitive viability. The transitions are quick on this stage as well making any walk offs nom issues as they can't be camped.

That's two more stages for 2 v 2 play
at the very least.

If counter pick for reset Bomb forest against sonic mains because it means they can't approach as easily, also against tanks characters as they can't manoeuvre as well. Little Mac also.

I'd use Rainbow Road against characters that are better offstage as well as those that kill upwards, as it has a pretty high ceiling.

Also...

Any transitional deaths on Paper Mario are a result of player ineptitude because everything is timed. Fan comes out at 20 seconds, Stage transitions every 40-45 seconds.

#FreePaperMario2015

 

[leekslap]

I was just testing something out that I remembered reading from the main stage analysist thread.

Reset Bomb Forest
Wily's Castle
Tortimer's Island
And Rainbow Road

Do something fantastic during four player local multiplayer (albeit to varying degrees)

They remove certain parts of the stage.

Reset Bomb Forest removes all caves of life from the second portion. Making the stage perfectly fine. As all arguments point to that being the reason why it's not allowed.

Wily's Castle disappoints because it removes all the hazards that make it not just the Omega version and keeps Yellow Devil. Sigh...

Tortimer island has Kapp'n not show up with the boat. But keeps the fruit. So that's decent I suppose.

And Rainbow Road gets rid of the shy guys. Making it perfectly fine as well. Calling it a worse prism tower is subjective and should not take away from its competitive viability. The transitions are quick on this stage as well making any walk offs nom issues as they can't be camped.

That's two more stages for 2 v 2 play
at the very least.

If counter pick for reset Bomb forest against sonic mains because it means they can't approach as easily, also against tanks characters as they can't manoeuvre as well. Little Mac also.

I'd use Rainbow Road against characters that are better offstage as well as those that kill upwards, as it has a pretty high ceiling.

Also...

Any transitional deaths on Paper Mario are a result of player ineptitude because everything is timed. Fan comes out at 20 seconds, Stage transitions every 40-45 seconds.

#FreePaperMario2015

Fruit is the main reason why Tortimer is banned so no. Rainbow Road is not perfectly fine, and is objectively a worse Prism Tower. It still favors strong characters, characters with good recovery, and characters with bad recovery except it has a lot more walkoffs and randomness in its layout so it is pretty bad. None of the sections are anything good except the starting FDlike part.

Stop being so ignorant. It still has camping spots, walkoffs, strong windboxes, walls, moving ledges, uneven ground, an unfair advantages for multi jump characters, and that goddamn Bowser section. There is no safe piece of ground in the entire Bowser section, and I believe it is the worst thing in a stage ever. Paper Mario doesn't favor anybody else because of how hazardous it is. People concentrate on the match more than the stage, so player ineptitude my ass. You really think people are going to be playing on the stage so much that they know when everything comes out and what to look out for? This stage sucks balls. Period.

 

[leekslap]

Double post, but @ NegaMawile I've clearly tested stages a lot more than you have, so please stop.

 

[NegaMawile]

What makes a stage fair? What's your criteria? Without a criteria your stage list is arbitrary and wholly subjective to what you think is fine for competitive play. I'm not saying you're wrong or right but Smash as a whole has no criteria for stage selection.

For me a stage is competitively fair when it allows equal opportunity for both players. Character choice and stage strikes are available and players have a liberty to choose all characters on the character select screen. Meaning that character selection is of equal opportunity. So whether one character or an archetype of characters are better or worse on a given stage is a non-issue for competitive fairness. If a stage favours you playing Shiek or Zero Suit because of having more movement options (just an example) then choose them. Nothing is stoping you from learning more characters.

 

[leekslap]

What makes a stage fair? What's your criteria? Without a criteria your stage list is arbitrary and wholly subjective to what you think is fine for competitive play. I'm not saying you're wrong or right but Smash as a whole has no criteria for stage selection.

For me a stage is competitively fair when it allows equal opportunity for both players. Character choice and stage strikes are available and players have a liberty to choose all characters on the character select screen. Meaning that character selection is of equal opportunity. So whether one character or an archetype of characters are better or worse on a given stage is a non-issue for competitive fairness. If a stage favours you playing Shiek or Zero Suit because of having more movement options (just an example) then choose them. Nothing is stoping you from learning more characters.

OK your posts went from "Eh, I can see where you are coming from" to "WTF is this guy saying right now". If Smash didn't have a criteria all stages would be legal. I do have a criteria and it is :

- hazards are easily worked around/don't affect the battle in unfair ways
- stage adds a disadvantage/advantage to a certain archetype that did not have a disadvantage/advantage in other legal stages
- doesn't encourage abusive strategies such as camping through its layout
- doesn't affect the battle to the point that a key part of the game like edgeguarding is practically impossible ( walkoffs basically )
- lets the game be itself without other things to look out for constantly

Do you even know how counterpicking works? The first match is the perfectly fair one. You choose your character and your opponent chooses their character. You ban a stage out of the starters that you do not want to go to and your opponent does the same. The stage is pretty much always fair for both. Then the winner of that match bans two or one( not sure yet ) of the seven legal stages and loser can pick out of the not banned stages. Both can change their character, but the advantage still goes to the loser because they can change their stage choice according to the character switch. And Dave's Stupid Rule says that winner can't choose a stage he's won on. That has nothing to do with competitive fairness at all, and you can't choose your characters best stages whenever you want. You can't make sure that the second match stays even with a character switch either.

 

[Xeze]

On the starter stages pretty much everyone agrees on Battlefield, FD+Omegas and Yoshi's Island.
For counterpicks I'd say Prism Tower, Arena Ferox and Brinstar. Not sure about Tomodachi Life yet, since the layout encourages circle camping.

 

[Roll-Spamming-Peasant]

I'm surprised people are saying Brinstar should be legal. Doesn't it have that little spot that can break the stage apart AND constantly changing lower blast zones?

I'd say this contradicts the "Lets the game be itself without other things to look out for constantly" criteria.

 

[leekslap]

I'm surprised people are saying Brinstar should be legal. Doesn't it have that little spot that can break the stage apart AND constantly changing lower blast zones?

I'd say this contradicts the "Lets the game be itself without other things to look out for constantly" criteria.

Yeah it does, but the spot that can break the stage apart is rarely broken and I don't see your point with the "constantly changing blast zones" since yeah they change. If a character who would otherwise fall to their doom gets blasted by lava well it's pretty easy to follow them and hit them with an up air or something.

"Lets the game be itself without other things to look out for constantly". Lava comes up every 2 minutes for 5 seconds and very slowly too. I want some unique gameplay to be honest.

 

[NegaMawile]

Have you done your testing on Reset Bomb Forest? If so what are your new thoughts on it?

 

[rabbits]

Corneria - Great Fox laser is extremely powerful and edgeguards for you, Arwing/Wolfen comes out too often and messes everyone up, overpowered camping spot in right side, and all around just messes with the flow of the battle too much.
Jungle Japes - Quite literally blows every other stage out of the water in terms of hazard strength.

I think Prism Tower could be a starter, and Jungle Japes and Corneria could be legal.

- hazards are easily worked around/don't affect the battle in unfair ways
- stage adds a disadvantage/advantage to a certain archetype that did not have a disadvantage/advantage in other legal stages
- doesn't encourage abusive strategies such as camping through its layout
- doesn't affect the battle to the point that a key part of the game like edgeguarding is practically impossible ( walkoffs basically )
- lets the game be itself without other things to look out for constantly

Prism Tower - I'm really not seeing why it can't be a starter. It fits all the criteria. Could you explain your logic behind it being a counterpick?

Corneria - The laser isn't a huge problem, and can be comboed into on purpose. As for the camping spot, doesn;t Tomodachi Life encourage camping somewhat as well?

Jungle Japes - Basically what @ Sideslick said earlier. Claptrap isn't an issue, and it's not like there's any real interference onstage. Every character(except maybe MM) is equally dead if they fall in the river, so what's the problem? How is this any worse than Brinstar?

The strength of the hazard encourages strageties to use it. Strategies that I personally don't like.

What you personally like doesn't really matter, and of course people will use the river. That's kind of the point. The river doesn't interfere with the battle until someone's offstage, so you can use it strategically to your advantage. Like choosing battlefield for more mobility options. Seems fine to me.

 

[Roll-Spamming-Peasant]

Yeah it does, but the spot that can break the stage apart is rarely broken and I don't see your point with the "constantly changing blast zones" since yeah they change. If a character who would otherwise fall to their doom gets blasted by lava well it's pretty easy to follow them and hit them with an up air or something.

"Lets the game be itself without other things to look out for constantly". Lava comes up every 2 minutes for 5 seconds and very slowly too. I want some unique gameplay to be honest.

That's fair, very good points. I suppose I just enjoy the list over on Anther's Ladder. They basically use your main OP list sans Brinstar and Tomagachi life.

 

[NegaMawile]

I think we should start over. We're all here for the sane reason right? To give the 3DS a legal stage list. But all we're doing now is bickering back and forth about what we think is legal or passes for legal. Instead of starting from the stages that we know are legal we should start from the complete stagelist and narrow it down. Outlining the reasons why certain stages are illegal as we go along. Or we're not going to get anywhere as a small branch community. Basically what we have do far is a bunch of "I think..." but very little agreeing and it's lead to minor bickering.

I'm not trying to white knight or anything but I think it's the best course of action to find and define legal stages in a game severely lacking them.

 

[Roll-Spamming-Peasant]

I think we should start over. We're all here for the sane reason right? To give the 3DS a legal stage list. But all we're doing now is bickering back and forth about what we think is legal or passes for legal. Instead of starting from the stages that we know are legal we should start from the complete stagelist and narrow it down. Outlining the reasons why certain stages are illegal as we go along. Or we're not going to get anywhere as a small branch community. Basically what we have do far is a bunch of "I think..." but very little agreeing and it's lead to minor bickering.

I'm not trying to white knight or anything but I think it's the best course of action to find and define legal stages in a game severely lacking them.

I'm all for that, want to scope this out for an example?

 

[leekslap]

I think Prism Tower could be a starter, and Jungle Japes and Corneria could be legal.



Prism Tower - I'm really not seeing why it can't be a starter. It fits all the criteria. Could you explain your logic behind it being a counterpick?

Corneria - The laser isn't a huge problem, and can be comboed into on purpose. As for the camping spot, doesn;t Tomodachi Life encourage camping somewhat as well?

Jungle Japes - Basically what @ Sideslick said earlier. Claptrap isn't an issue, and it's not like there's any real interference onstage. Every character(except maybe MM) is equally dead if they fall in the river, so what's the problem? How is this any worse than Brinstar?



What you personally like doesn't really matter, and of course people will use the river. That's kind of the point. The river doesn't interfere with the battle until someone's offstage, so you can use it strategically to your advantage. Like choosing battlefield for more mobility options. Seems fine to me.

Prism Tower can't be a starter because the number of starters has to be an odd number so that each player gets an equal amount of bans. It also has many Randall-like saves in its transitions which favors characters with bad recoveries, has a Delfino/Halberd style main platform which favors characters with good recoveries since they can go under the stage and shark, and some parts of it make killing very easy so it favors strong characters. I already explained this to Nega Mawile geez

It is a huge problem! I'll be charging up that Giant Punch with DK and all of a sudden, laser comes out and interrupts me. It's also off screen most of the time so, at least for combos, it's too unpredictable to use since the time it shoots, the amount of times it shoots, and when the Arwing/Wolfen actually comes out. And if you do combo into it, you've basically traded a juggle for an edgeguard, and recovering on the left side is just the worst which makes the laser worse in the process. The Great Fox's laser kills at, like, 20%. Doesn't matter if you have the fastest up b in the world, low recoveries are just not an option, and as for characters like Ness and Fox, the Great Fox laser is their worst nightmare. The threat of the laser alone makes any kind of ledge play risky buisness, and to top it off, sometimes the Arwing/Wolfen will shoot you and kill you since the stage is so small if you go for the high recovery! Tomodachi Life doesn't have an ultra powerful camping spot like Corneria. Even if you try to runaway in Tomodachi, your opponent can easily corner you and stop you as long as they are not Ganondorf. I purposefully tried to camp as hard as I could for testing purposes in Corneria with all kinds of characters, and all of them could camp like they are in the middle of the forest. Do you how hard it is to get through that forest of projectiles and spaced aerials? Really hard. Like not-worth-it hard. If Corneria was legal, the popular 2 stocks, 5 minutes ruleset wouldn't work and that's enough reason to ban this shiz to the moon.

Have you even read the thread or, I don't know, PLAYED ON THE ****ING STAGES WE ARE DISCUSSING! Claptrap is a humongous issue since it gives characters a riduculous killing option. Brinstar lava doesn't kill you at 0% you scrub and it is hard to use in the first place. I worded it bad because I was trying to level with you guys and be humble so I'll fix that. "Strategies that are unfair as hell, not fun to watch at all, and completely changes what Smash Bros gameplay is supposed to be like". Something I didn't mention is that Jungle Japes also favors camping. Now do you understand? How does Battlefiled give you more mobility options? You really have no idea what you're talking about.

I think we should start over. We're all here for the sane reason right? To give the 3DS a legal stage list. But all we're doing now is bickering back and forth about what we think is legal or passes for legal. Instead of starting from the stages that we know are legal we should start from the complete stagelist and narrow it down. Outlining the reasons why certain stages are illegal as we go along. Or we're not going to get anywhere as a small branch community. Basically what we have do far is a bunch of "I think..." but very little agreeing and it's lead to minor bickering.

I'm not trying to white knight or anything but I think it's the best course of action to find and define legal stages in a game severely lacking them.

I already did this shiz. No reason to do it again. I'm not making Arena Ferox legal because some idiot on the internet said it was good. I've tested these stages to death. I only gave you summaries, but you want me to write a book about it. Just trust me OK?

I feel like you are trying to white knight though. And this game isn't lacking legal stages just because it doesn't have 10 legal ones like in Project M or the Wii U version. Less stages is actually better because it makes stage picking less of a hassle.

 

[Roll-Spamming-Peasant]

Prism Tower can't be a starter because the number of starters has to be an odd number so that each player gets an equal amount of bans. It also has many Randall-like saves in its transitions which favors characters with bad recoveries, has a Delfino/Halberd style main platform which favors characters with good recoveries since they can go under the stage and shark, and some parts of it make killing very easy so it favors strong characters. I already explained this to Nega Mawile geez

It is a huge problem! I'll be charging up that Giant Punch with DK and all of a sudden, laser comes out and interrupts me. It's also off screen most of the time so, at least for combos, it's too unpredictable to use since the time it shoots, the amount of times it shoots, and when the Arwing/Wolfen actually comes out. And if you do combo into it, you've basically traded a juggle for an edgeguard, and recovering on the left side is just the worst which makes the laser worse in the process. The Great Fox's laser kills at, like, 20%. Doesn't matter if you have the fastest up b in the world, low recoveries are just not an option, and as for characters like Ness and Fox, the Great Fox laser is their worst nightmare. The threat of the laser alone makes any kind of ledge play risky buisness, and to top it off, sometimes the Arwing/Wolfen will shoot you and kill you since the stage is so small if you go for the high recovery! Tomodachi Life doesn't have an ultra powerful camping spot like Corneria. Even if you try to runaway in Tomodachi, your opponent can easily corner you and stop you as long as they are not Ganondorf. I purposefully tried to camp as hard as I could for testing purposes in Corneria with all kinds of characters, and all of them could camp like they are in the middle of the forest. Do you how hard it is to get through that forest of projectiles and spaced aerials? Really hard. Like not-worth-it hard. If Corneria was legal, the popular 2 stocks, 5 minutes ruleset wouldn't work and that's enough reason to ban this shiz to the moon.

Have you even read the thread or, I don't know, PLAYED ON THE ****ING STAGES WE ARE DISCUSSING! Claptrap is a humongous issue since it gives characters a riduculous killing option. Brinstar lava doesn't kill you at 0% you scrub and it is hard to use in the first place. I worded it bad because I was trying to level with you guys and be humble so I'll fix that. "Strategies that are unfair as hell, not fun to watch at all, and completely changes what Smash Bros gameplay is supposed to be like". Something I didn't mention is that Jungle Japes also favors camping. Now do you understand? How does Battlefiled give you more mobility options? You really have no idea what you're talking about.

I already did this shiz. No reason to do it again. I'm not making Arena Ferox legal because some idiot on the internet said it was good. I've tested these stages to death. I only gave you summaries, but you want me to write a book about it. Just trust me OK?

I feel like you are trying to white knight though. And this game isn't lacking legal stages just because it doesn't have 10 legal ones like in Project M or the Wii U version. Less stages is actually better because it makes stage picking less of a hassle.

I don't care how long you've been playing smash or how long you've been on this forum, it does not excuse this level of condescending tone. It makes you sound childish. You have fair points and all,I can honestly acknowledge that, but there's no reason to use that much aggression when you just keep dismissing everyone's comments for your own opinions.

 

[leekslap]

I don't care how long you've been playing smash or how long you've been on this forum, it does not excuse this level of condescending tone. It makes you sound childish. You have fair points and all,I can honestly acknowledge that, but there's no reason to use that much aggression when you just keep dismissing everyone's comments for your own opinions.

It's really not so much me being condescending and more you guys not testing enough before posting. Seriously, I'm allowed to get frustrated no? And I'm not dismissing EVERYONE's comments.

 

[rabbits]

Prism Tower can't be a starter because the number of starters has to be an odd number so that each player gets an equal amount of bans. It also has many Randall-like saves in its transitions which favors characters with bad recoveries, has a Delfino/Halberd style main platform which favors characters with good recoveries since they can go under the stage and shark, and some parts of it make killing very easy so it favors strong characters. I already explained this to Nega Mawile geez

Okay, I get Prism Tower. Sorry about that.

But I still think Jungle Japes is fine.

Have you even read the thread or, I don't know, PLAYED ON THE ****ING STAGES WE ARE DISCUSSING! Claptrap is a humongous issue since it gives characters a riduculous killing option. Brinstar lava doesn't kill you at 0% you scrub and it is hard to use in the first place. I worded it bad because I was trying to level with you guys and be humble so I'll fix that. "Strategies that are unfair as hell, not fun to watch at all, and completely changes what Smash Bros gameplay is supposed to be like". Something I didn't mention is that Jungle Japes also favors camping. Now do you understand?

Claptrap isn't any worse than the river is, really. Brinstar lava isn't that hard to use. What is Smash Bros gameplay "supposed" to be like? You keep making vague statements that don't really explain anything. As for Jungle Japes favoring camping, so does FD, to some extent. Besides that, it's supposed to be counterpick, so if someone played a campy character, of course they'd want to choose a stage favoring that character.

How does Battlefiled give you more mobility options? You really have no idea what you're talking about.

...what.

 

[leekslap]

Okay, I get Prism Tower. Sorry about that.

But I still think Jungle Japes is fine.



Claptrap isn't any worse than the river is, really. Brinstar lava isn't that hard to use. What is Smash Bros gameplay "supposed" to be like? You keep making vague statements that don't really explain anything. As for Jungle Japes favoring camping, so does FD, to some extent. Besides that, it's supposed to be counterpick, so if someone played a campy character, of course they'd want to choose a stage favoring that character.



...what.

I know. Claptrap and water are both big problems. I can only imagine spiking someone into the lava at the right time, but spiking is a hard thing to do alone and the lava doesn't come up enough for it to become a thing. Edgeguarding, recovery, combos, etc. Final Destination doesn't favor camping at all. By that logic every single stage in the game favors camping since camping is a thing that you can do. Yeah but it's too big of an advantage. And because of that, the player would always have to waste one of their bans on that stage and it wouldn't see much play. Some characters like Falco are just unstoppable on this stage. Falco can laser spam on the side platforms, down b them if they approach, side b to the other side if they lose the position. Rinse and repeat. Not fair at all.

Talk about vague statements that don't explain anything.

At this point you guys will like anything against me. I'm sorry, but I got frustrated. No offense, but it's like in school where you are a smart person and you get a group project with people who make you do all the work.

 

[NegaMawile]

The most optimal way to create a proper list is to start large and narrow things down by defining the criteria. By defining the criteria we can afterwards define other stages. Logically and with reason.

Example:
Of course you have to list the reason why, and it must be agreed upon.

•Character property altering gimmicks are toxic to the meta game because:
They give characters unfair advantages that are not distributed evenly.
They drastically change the flow of the battle, being able to turn a character Mega,Invincible, unable to flinch, etc…
These benefits break the natural balance of the game, for short periods of time, not allowing an accurate assessment of skill to be measured.

Then once the points are agreed on you ban stages using simple AB logic.

•All stages with character property altering gimmicks are banned.
•Wario Ware has Character property altering gimmicks.
•Wario Ware is banned.


All stages that fall into this category are then also banned with no bias.
•Wario Ware
•Find Mii
•Golden Plains
•Pac Maze

And so on and so forth.

This allows the reasoning for stage banning to be obvious for everyone who joins later. You can't just say "trust me". Decions are not made that way, nor do I have any reason to trust you.

Looking at the stage list now I see that we have BattleField, Final Destination, Yoshi's Island, Arena Ferox, and Prisin Tower.

That list tells me that relatively flat, multi tiered stages are allowed. The stages are also allowed to have randomly occuring obstructions, temporary caves of life, and temporary walk offs.

So why isn't Tomadachi life allowed? There's no precise reasoning. It fits all the other stages criteria that a common person would see. It also raises questions. "If random obstructions are allowed, why aren't ones with a set time? Those should be easier to handle."

At the end of the day we're not adding to the stage list we already have. We're picking stages from the total stages available. Meaning subtraction. It's easier to obtain order in this format.

 

[Roll-Spamming-Peasant]

Tomdachi life promotes circular camping because of its layout. If one player feels the need, they can turn it into a game of cat and mouse very easily, which I believe in a game where timeout wins are possible, would be toxic to the competitive scene.

 

[NegaMawile]

Understood by myself yes, though I don't think it's as big of a deal as people make it out to be. But a lot of newer players won't see that. They'll see a stage with no obstructions and ask why it isn't legal, when it doesn't at all interfere with the game.

Just an example at any rate.