Smashboards

I'm not sure, the average in this game has gone up significantly due to all the buffs
I'd even say no-Limit Cloud is bottom half of the cast

if Cloud didn't have Limit as a mechanic but had a decent recovery (say Marth Dolphin Slash), I'd say he'd be at about the same level of viability as Marth. Poor grab reward and lack of safety on shield really hurt badly

like every swordsman, he does alright stuffing approaches with reactions and good spacing, and he has mobility to boot. but all the other swordsmen can actually *poke*, and most of them get good grab reward

Like would I rather have Cloud's f4 jumpsquat and foxtrot or Marth's d-tilt and f-tilt? On a swordsman, I think I'd rather have the tilts

What say you for Limit Cloud mobility but no Limit Break moves?

Also it's important to note he moves faster than Roy without any speed boosts at all alongside the best frame data for said mobility when it comes relative to his disjoint. Just things worth considering.

I think the mobility matters more than the moves, outside of recovery

mostly it's the air acceleration

being able to cross up with ALL of your aerials is just too good

Also he'd be above Marth if he had a good recovery but no Limit because he gets consistently better reward on said grabs and juggles way better.

I would say high-mid if not fringe high.

yeah, but all that mobility doesn't mean anything if you can't threaten shields with it, is the point. if your opponent is not jumping around on stage then cloud's fast disjoint isn't super useful.

not really sure. Marth has actual poking options; both have bad grab reward, though Cloud's is a little better.

I guess though that with a decent recovery Cloud would be pretty good at edgeguarding with his n-air, which is something

(I also think Non-Limit Cloud deals with rolls much better than Marth does, and the active frames are so much betterrrrr).

I don't disagree, so long as Limit boosts his mobility he'll always be top. But I think Non-Limit Cloud is a good enough character to carry him to that state so he can perform, if you feel me.

I sort of disagree. I think nonLimit Cloud is a bad character, who relies on giving up stage position or getting beaten up to become a good character

still good enough to be worthy of adjustments overall, but most of it is on the limit side of things