How to Start Breaking Your Limits (A Cloud Guide/Work In Progress)

This guide is mainly to help anyone trying to learn to break their limits with Cloud, hence the title. There are also additions being considered to either add to this guide or be made into their separate entities. Hopefully this will eliminate the FG Clouds or "Cluds" of the world.


By: DreadFighter

Started: 3/7/16

Finished: ?



Frame data: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Cloud


Hitbox Visualization: http://smashboards.com/threads/cloud-hitbox-visualization.432698/


Atmosphere (Cloud training stage!): http://smashboards.com/threads/atmosphere-a-training-stage-for-cloud.433547/#post-21019659


Finishing Touch Kill Confirms 1.1.5 (Not done yet): http://smashboards.com/threads/5-99...-finishing-touch-combos.433419/#post-21013697


Instant Limit Break Canceling: http://smashboards.com/threads/cloud-instant-liimit-break-cancel-ilbc.425982/#post-20600937


Cloud Discord(Really good place to ask questions!): http://smashboards.com/threads/cloud-discord-group.431231/


Muscle Memory Drills: http://smashboards.com/threads/1st-...tech-skill-guide-v1-3-1.433340/#post-21014817


Bread and Butter Combos (and some other general stuff): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qWd7CfqTVw (MySmashCorner)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKRuW0a7Zfw (Izaw: Art of Cloud)


Cloud Up B ledge snap: http://youtu.be/vhmo_GIrWv4 (MVG_League)


Limit Cross Slash Offstage Examples: http://imgur.com/xYypJfP
http://imgur.com/tgZe5ZU
http://imgur.com/EO1Gx7b

http://imgur.com/VIBIgEg


Sources: KuroganeHammer, GHNeko, MySmashCorner, MVG_League, Izaw, Ren Mojito (gifs), Cloud Discord




Don’t use up tilt in neutral too often unless punish

Best to land with AC dair (commital, must be spaced! And mixed up) or nair, up air best as a juggling tool or punish

Fair is slow, only use when spaced well and as a mix up or punish. ONLY USE OFFSTAGE AS A COUNTER EDGEGUARD AS A MIX UP

Don’t waste limit immediately (unless mix up/read), be sure to instill fear into opponent

Be careful when charging limit not to accidently release it, happens when you press down b on and off

DON’T BE A CLUD BY ROLLING AND DOING FG THINGS




Jab:

Don’t EVER jab cancel in most situations. However, jab 1 then grab is an okay mix up if the opponent is not aware and it can be safe on shield sometimes if your opponent is not ready (1st hit)

All 3 hits on shield is unsafe

Okay as quick punish but there is usually a better punish

Good get off me move, but usually better punishes

Also a good OoS option, but with shield drop lag (7 frames + 4 fames start up) it is in fact slower than UP b OoS


Dash Attack:

Clanks with Rob’s gyro, can’t pick it up with it

Does have some good kill potential

Okay mix up out a dash dance or extended dash dance, don’t spam


Tilts


Forward Tilt:

Underutilized by many Clouds, overall decent move

A PP f tilt is good for: punishing rolls in, retreating, or punishing a roll onstage

Has okay kill potential, but this isn’t Cloud’s best move


Up Tilt:

Good punish b/c can link into itself around 10% on fast fallers and into nair or a up air at mid %s

Don’t throw it randomly out in neutral besides a mix up

PP u tilt is a very good mix up/punish, but should only be used sparingly

Overall a decent move, but still not where he shines

Up tilt grab decent mix up vs fast/mid fallers. If opponent acts and nairs out of it, can store that habit (possibly aggressive lander)


D Tilt:

Good for edgeguarding (2 frames) certain character recoveries (Primary example is Rosalina)

Can combo into an up air at mid %s at end or up b. Can lead into some mix ups however

HORRIBLE ON SHIELD, but can slide past them

Good but situational


Aerials


Nair:

Really good spaced on shield and can lead into dash attack mid %s

Can lead into limit cross slash at around 45% to 70% depending on character. (Good for hard reads on reg ledge get up). At about 50% nair into limit cross slash works)

Amazing for covering landings of self and opponent in midair

Great for controlling space in front of you

Try using FH double nair


Up air:

AMAZING for juggling and can be used in neutral like nair (spaced but nair is probably still better in neutral in most case)

Can kill but depends on how stale

Low %’s can lead into up tilt strings and well is side b

Up air into limit cross slash cas kill around 40-50% roughly, bit more with rage

Weak hit of up air into grounded finishing touch mix up? (Needs testing)

Weak hit of up air can combo into stuff mid to late %s as well


Dair:

A committal landing option, should be careful with usage

Leads into cross slash kill confirms at mid %s, into up air at late %s, dair -> fair mid percents (very good combos), as well as RAR AC Dair into Bair at kill %s

Space well on shield and mix up when you use it on characters with good OoS options

Adjust height based on platforms, Has a great AC window however

Can auto cancel after a short hop from a platform (Battlefield Dreamland)


Fair:

Great when spaced on shield, not in ditto or characters with great OoS options like Diddy.

Frame cancel fair into d smash, f tilt, other set ups

Can be used from ledge as a mix up if opponent too far away for up air

If you condition your opponent to expect a nair on shield, very good mix up


Bair:

Good off of a ledge trump or hanging off ledge

If spaced well, very hard to punish on shield. Incredible range

Has combo potential at lower-mid %s and is an okay landing option (not as good as nair or dair, better than up air in some situations)

^Depends on situation however

Good for controlling space as well


Smash Attacks


Forward Smash:

Not a move that can just be thrown out often, first hit can clank with a lot of moves

Good for punishing rolls in or air dodges, however, if the opponent has a really good roll (ex: Sheik) or good air dodge (Ness) be careful <- Best with hard read/low stakes, not extremely fast

^PP f smash is good for same purpose, but also for adjusting spacing

Can break shields if they are 50% or under

Can be safe on shield if last hit spaced far away, but easily punished up close (Be careful with this move PLEASE)

Can kill really early obviously but can be SDIed out of (godlike SDI only)


Up Smash:

Not that safe, use sparingly

Really good anti air, especially if opponent is above you or has a habit of landing on platforms (reaches through most platforms). Lot of range

Doesn’t kill that early, but kills around early hundreds (still ideal)

At mid %s on some characters up air into up smash works if you want to unstale a certain move (only purpose I found for this combo

Reverse Up Smash can also be a good mix up if you can catch an opponent in that area

Fox trots into an up smash can be good for killing IF opponent has spot dodge habits


Down Smash:

Fastest smash attack on Cloud, and kills relatively early, especially near ledge

Does not count as a multi-hit on things like Ryu’s focus attack, so use jab or grab as a punish in a scenario like that

Definitely a better option for punishing rolls in general at kill %s vs other smash attacks, faster overall and if your spacing is off the back hit may catch your opponent

However, can be teched before the second hit (sometimes not that reliable)


Normal Special Moves


Blade Beam (neutral b):

Okay projectile, but decently laggy

If far away, can be a okay mix up

Pushes you forward/stalls you a little (recovery mix up)

Can punish opponents who go slightly above ledge and you are too far away

B reversed blade beam is okay mix up

Limit Break better at forcing approaches overall


Cross Slash (side b):

Very good for racking up damage but can be sdied

Up air -> side b good at low/low-mid %s as a punish

Not great at high %s, opponents can fall out when you have rage

Can be used to stall once offstage, and jump with it results with upward momentum (can be done after 1st stall or in general) <- underused recovery mix up

Top part of first hit can jab lock on top of BF/DL64 platforms, possible punish or tech chase after


Climhazzard (Up b):

Good OoS option (faster than jab OoS as noted)

Normally does not snap ledge so be careful, can lead to harsh punishes

Can snap ledge right next to stage at start, see resources

Don't use second hit of up b unless high up, will SD

2nd hit good for getting to ledge if high up and in range (recovery mix up), BUT you must be about a full hop length above the ledge to snap it

Sometimes better to snap ledge with jump instead

Can grab backwards, but must be spaced well

Spike of second hit can kill characters offstage, especially good vs characters with bad recoverys

Good mix up for escaping being juggled

Climcide is an option and does depend where they are on the blade, so the winner may vary based on the specific TO of the tournaments





Limit Break (down b):

Can do instant limit break canceling (see resources)

^Can catch opponent off guard

Can also cancel charge with roll or airdodge, but don't resort to CLUD tactics

Use to bait opponent into approaching you so you can see and punish their habits



Limit micro/mega charge opportunities:

1. When offstage against people who struggle at edgeguards (must if far away), may be able to live b/c limit up b usually can save a stock
   
   
2. On platforms, can camp there and easily charge limit, especially with a stock lead. AMAZING ON SMASHVILLE OR TOP PLATFORMS OF BF/DL64
   
   
3. When the opposing character is offstage and has an amazing recovery. Sometimes going offstage is worth it with a hard read (Example, they AD a lot offstage or a Falcon recovers linearly VERY often)
   
   
4. When very high up after a near fatal blow or being juggled. Only do for a small amount of limit unless opponent nowhere near you
   
   
5. In neutral to force an approach. then punish and get a lot of %
   
   
6. Remember, Get limit after taking 100% or giving 250%

Limit Special Moves


Limit Blade Beam (neutral b):

Can be used well for catching opponents who hang on ledge too long

Can be absorbed AND reflected back at you, be careful

At low %s it is possible to get a follow up after it if you are close enough to your opponent

(The specific projectiles that stop it are given in Izaw’s guide)


Limit Cross Slash (side b):

Can be used as a really good tool for intercepting certain recoveries (like Fox, Ganon, etc.). Use it as a trap, certain positioning reads mean a good kill (like a Ganon’s up b path, it will force them to get caught in it, or air dodge and die w/o a jump, or where a Fox/Falco will be after they use side b) <- Look at resources

In general good as a very solid read and has invincibility on frames 5-12. Can be confirmed from a neutral air, dthrow to nair, or FH AC Dair

Can also be good for punishing a landing (opponent has no more options)

Can be used to punish ledge options very well (Can read jump from ledge, roll onstage, can hit from under stage, etc.)

PP Limit Side B is a good mix up for covering landings and rolls towards you with a good read


Limit Climhazzard (up b):

A REALLY good OoS option (used when opponent is in kill range)

Can sweet spot unlike regular up b, but there is still a window to punish it so be careful

Recovering high with it is good if your opponent does not expect it

Can be confirmed from a dair


Finishing Touch (Down B):

Not as useful as Side B, but can still kill at a decent % from the ground or from an airdodge read close to the ceiling (more likely to kill there due to base kb)

Can cover ledge options but Side B is usually better

Overall not as useful as it once was and is most likely the worst limit move in Cloud’s arsenal


Moves Safe on Shield

Ftilt (spaced) -11

Dsmash back hit (spaced) -11

Nair (spaced) -2

Fair (spaced) -1/-2

Bair (spaced) +2 and up close -5 (can spot dodge to avoid the grab)

Dair autocancel (spaced) +2 and close -5 (can spotdodge to avoid the grab)

Up air (spaced) +-0

Limit Blade Beam (spaced) -1

Limit Cross Slash (spaced) -8.

Regular Cloud vs Limit Cloud (basic differences)


Regular Cloud:

1. The neutral as regular Cloud will be charging limit as a bait to get your opponent to approach and using bairs, nairs, dairs, and up airs in neutral (summaries of each move above)
   
   
2. Use this period to scout out your opponent’s flaws and then later exploit those flaws as limit Cloud

Limit Cloud: (The specifics for the data is on Kurogane Hammer)

1. Cloud will fall faster, run faster, and has better aerial mobility to sum it up
   
   
2. Worse when your opponent is at early %s (can’t kill them, but get some really good damage with an early read)
   
   
3. Characters such as Mario can combo you much easier at low %s so trying to get damage from a Limit Cross Slash or Blade Beam early is okay so you can get back to the Regular Cloud Phase
   
   
4. However, Limit should not be used immediately as the buff it gives to Clouds are quite good (best to use it if you have that solid read)
   
   
5. Combos and timing on Auto Canceled moves will vary (for example, dair has a slightly different timing after a FH)

This guide is still not complete and I plan to add to it, but if you find any problems to anything I have outlined, be sure to make a suggestion! I want to make this guide the best it can be