In depth guide, written for Ultimate
You'll mostly learn how to deal against Yoshi but also how to understand him
Part 1 : guide (this blog)
Part 2 : match-up
Before we start!
This guide has been written during the 1.2.1 patch, the meta has still yet to evolve, therefore don't expect this guide to be 100% accurate data wise for the rest of the game lifespan as the game will receive nerfs and buffs, even though, Yoshi feels very similar to his smash 4 counterpart, nothing "game breaking" has been removed or added. All of what you are about to read is based on years of research, if I am wrong somewhere, please contact me to discuss about it at :
Nephedel@gmail.com or just pm me on here or leave a comment)
IMPORTANT NOTE:
- This guide is not focused on how to play the green dinosaur but how to UNDERSTAND him IN DEPTH and how to beat and how to deal with him BUT it is very important to know all of these informations even as a Yoshi main.
So everyone can benefit from this guide.
I will not talk about frame data unless it's worth mentionning.
"Asserting dominance, T-posing for the victory..."
Hello guys, after maining Yoshi in every smash game and seeing the little dinosaur's potential in ultimate, I thought that people might want to try him out, therefore, making his match-up even more important to learn.
I have accumulated thousands of hours of playtime just with him in smash 4 and I'm doing the same thing in ultimate.
How is this guide organized?
Part 1 (the whole post) is all about how Yoshi is played, strategies, his most favorable options, what to be looking for as him or against him and etc... Basically everything that you should know about Yoshi - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Noticeable good Yoshi player : Raptor, Sky Williams, Nephenie (me), Squerk, Broseidon, Esam, Password.
Playstyle:
-Considered as brain dead by some or even unga bunga by the Melee God Leffen, top tier by others or sleeper pick by a lot, Yoshi has a lot of tools that works well in his favor and is usually a good character to have as main or secondary. Also good to have if you usually play a zoner or a camper as Yoshi tend to be a rush down character but has the tools necessary to have any playstyle
-If you main Yoshi, consider having a secondary with long range or someone with who you're confident to use against swords as they are Yoshi's biggest threat.
How does people play Yoshi?
-The engine favorise an aggressive playstyle for many characters and no exception for our favorite dinosaur as he got the speed, power and moves to win with an offensive playstyle, being granted of powerful moves that can obliterate everyone's shield and rack up damage quickly has his damage output is absolutely insane for every move and combo he has. Expect to see more aggressive Yoshis.
Optimal way to button mash
-I'll quickly talk about it because it's useful, mashing with the buttons on the right is a bad idea, you'll just buffer an input by accident, rotate the stick instead or the fastest way to mash is to set your cross button (used for taunts by default) to shield, grab and jump and press all of them quickly in a rotation.
Pros and cons.
-To understand the happy green reptile, it's important to know his strengths and weaknesses, same applies to everyone else in every competitive games.
Pros :
-Very fast. Highest aerial speed in the game.
-High damaging moves.
-A lot of kill power.
-Kill confirms.
-Quick options such as jab or nair or down smash.
-Easily one of the best edgueguarder in the game.
-Can frame trap.
-Great frame data
-Very heavy
-Has a lot of different tools to land.
-Can mix up his recover with his speed,eggs and armor on double jump.
-Decent range for a non-sword user.
-Powerful smash attack with huge hitboxes.
-Has a very good projectile that can be aimed to go almost anywhere and lead to combo and cover landing and airdodge and much more.
-Great tech chase options
-Can break shields very easily with 2 différents move and has a command grab.
-3 frames nair to get out of combos and Yoshi is a floaty which means he can get out of a lot of combos
-His shield can't be poked
-Is very cute and doesn't pay his taxes
Cons :
-Because of his custom shield, his rolls are slower than average.
-Laggy grab
-Average throw, pretty situational but not garbage
-Dash grab and reverse grab are pretty bad.
-Can't outrange any swords
-Useless side b
-Rely on his double jump to gain height so if he loses it he can die easily
-Footstool offstage is really effective on him, just like for jigglypuff
-The armor on his double jump break at higher percent and against strong move
-Irs (don't denounce him please)
"I've seen it all, approach fighter..."
Yoshi's worst nightmare
-In general, Yoshi's worst nightmare are swords. I don't really like playing Cloud or Marth (and etc…) at all, their sword are just out ranging him and this is his main weakness, if you main/second/pocket anyone with a sword, go for it.
Anything disjointed works.
Stage
"Home of hapiness... DIIIIINEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOO!!!"
-Lylat is a good stage for Yoshi. It's a bit harder to snap the ledge there but he doesn't care because by default, he can't snap it already and the tilting make it easier to use his eggs. The platforms are well displayed for Yoshi to move around and juggle you but in the end it is all a matter of preference. I personally like battlefield because of the three platforms that are very good with his throws (i talk about it in this guide)
When it's your turn to ban a stage, I suggest you to ban your opponent's favorite stage and whatever you don't like. Yoshi is very versatile so any stage is fine usually for him. Work around your favorite stage rather than taking away his unless it bothers you. bf platform can extend Yoshi's juggle game and also combo.
With bf platform, it's a bit harder to hit someone with the egg while jumping because the height given by the up b has been increased in this game and the platform will cover a lot of space where the egg could land, even though it is possible to make the egg bounce off of the platform and fall on the opponent's head camping near the ledge, so with the bf platform yoshi will throw an egg without jumping more often when his opponent is grounded but if his opponent is not grounded it is a good moment for him to start throwing eggs.
On Wario ware’s platform, it's a bit risky to throw an egg if he's on a platform because you can run under him and hit him. If Yoshi's above you he won't ever throw an egg at you but could be used to maintain his aerial momentum/height if needed to avoid a potential juggle and mix-up his landing, if you are both on a different side of the stage and on a platform he might just annoy you with eggs until you approach. An other thing that can be done on this stage is him running off of a platform and reverse side b. Can be used on any platforms and it's pretty hard to predict sometime. Because of the platform, you're very likely to get juggled for days by his up air too.
When Yoshi is recovering
-When he is coming back on stage from below, it is really important to look at the players’s habit on how he recovers. Simply because this character doesn't have anything that snap the ledge other than down b which is usable only from above the stage. His up b and double jump both won't snap, therefore, he might just as well combine both to have the safest recovery possible, if he doesn't recover too low he can also just double jump and airdodge behind you as you're standing on the ledge, he can also just jump above you if he's not too low, he could do that in case he knows you'd try to hit him as he tries to grab the ledge, at the beginning of a match I suggest you to start shielding next to the ledge to protect yourself from an egg when he is recovering and observe his recovery option, this is where it can be tricky. If you're too close he can just ignore your shield with his neutral b but he has to recover very low as it will only touch you at the top of his double jump.
It's all about knowing his habits, once you downloaded your opponent, it's time to apply your knowledge and press buttons.
General advices.
-I won't do specific parts for every possible situations (but almost!) so instead I'll give some random informations here. It's easier for me to write that way.
-When landing, Yoshi can use his insane speed to avoid direct conflict with his opponent or even drift his entire momentum with a b reverse, he can double jump away which is very safe because of his armor and height or even down b on the ledge and snap to it, juggling him can be hard or even impossible at high percent
-If you shield too much, no matter where or what's happening, he will break it with his down b or down air or even ignore it with his neutral b (down b break about ~80-90% of the shield)
-If you run away a lot to setup traps or take distance because you fight better at mid distance, Yoshi will tend to be more aggresive and track you down. He's a predator after all
-Music counter pick does help. Learn to appreciate a song more than the others and put it. Enjoy the focus points during the next match
-Yoshi wants to be in your face, think about it, if he is not currently smelling your breath, what is he doing ? Probably looking at what you're doing and analyzing a way to approach, watch for when he decides to do his masterplan. Or watch out for a random egg.
-If you're standing on a platform and he's under you, he will probably jump and down air, it's also pretty safe (it's completely safe if you're at the edge of the platform) and it's going to eat quite a lot of your shield. If not he will bait you and up air or jump and neutral b sometime as rare mix up.
Also... Very important, taunting.
-A taunting Yoshi will spam the shield release animation for its animation or he will put you in an egg with his neutral b and get in his shield so you are both eggs. These are optimals ways to taunt with Yoshi. But the ultimate way to disrespect is to chain neutral b, predicting where his opponent will be after the release of the egg and do an other neutral b and keep the chain on. Even thought it's very easy to escape. If it works it can be very funny.
Easy gimp
-Easy way to gimp Yoshi when you're holding yourself at the ledge (or near it) and he is under you trying to get back on stage having to recover low, just drop down or jump down and footstool him, mash the jump button and Yoshi CAN'T recover after that. Easiest way to kill Yoshi, that's one of the many reasons (all mentioned in this guide) as of why we often drift back after using our double jump. It's easier if you're holding yourself at the ledge.
If he lost his double jump offstage ALWAYS GO FOR AN EDGUEGUARD! Even if your name is little mac. This spot is very bad for Yoshi therefore take this opportunity to get a free stock off of him. Also he will throw eggs 100% of the time. So adapt to it and don't let him comeback. Ledge trap can work as well but just a baby tap will kill him.
The ledge
-If Yoshi's at the ledge, he can drift back and throw and egg, if it connects, he will get back on stage for free, if it doesn't connect (because you shielded or he missed it) he can go back to the ledge or airdodge behind you or land in front of you, I suggest you to shield and do a quick out of shield option or if you parry, you can try a smash attack or tilt.
If you're at the ledge, he can throw an egg in case you choose to do a jump or neutral get up and if the timing is right he could hit you with a fair or up air (if he jumps before throwing the egg), he can 2 frame you with his down tilt and fair spike and also fsmash, if he get the down tilt he could go offstage and fast fall double jump nair, since the hitbox is huge and come out quickly while the jump will protect him from most hit and recovery because of its armor (unless he's a high percent the armor stop working or if the opponent has a command grab on his recovery (Ganondorf, C.Falcon) he can also try a fair or just wait at the ledge to throw an other egg.
Special moves
Neutral b
-if you're next to each other irl and he caught you in this move, he will check how quick you mash or listen to it and react to it accordingly (even during a phone call), if that's the case, mix up your mashing and be inconsistent with it to be unpredictable. If it's not irl then mash out quick and go away once you’re out of it, if he keeps hitting you while you're in the egg, throw a long lasting aerial as you get out of it (also called a sex kick, such as Sheik's nair or Yoshi's nair or Snake's back air). If he uses it on you and you're falling offstage, don't panic! Mash out with the stick only (always the stick and nothing else) and don't touch the shield button to avoid airdodging to your death doom because of the buffer system. Rotate the stick quickly and you're fine.
Side b
-If he does it offstage by accident go hit him, you can also disrespect by footstooling him after he gets out of it but you need a good timing, on stage just dash attack or shield grab but he can also jump on you, on a platform, he can speed up and gain momentum without falling off of it and take you by surprise, but a good Yoshi never use his side b. If it's used intentionally, he's trolling you, if you're getting your shield hit by that move don't drop it just yet. Wait for the move to actually end.
Down b
-Usually used to break shields, kill, get to the ledge quickly, tech chase, follow up with a fair spike on-stage and sometime, to land (even though it's punishable but can be good to interrupt a juggle or combo that aren't true
He can now land on a platform or under it with a different button press now, which wasn't a thing in smash 4 and it’s a big deal (he was forced to land on a platform when used on the ground)
He can jab 1,see if you're holding your shield and down b, but you can roll out of it. If you see Yoshi crawling in front of you, space yourself out.
If you try to juggle him, he might use it to punish you, if your combo is not guaranteed mostly but doing it too often would become predictable, he can also double jump quickly out of your combo and down b. Just try to not be under him while he goes down and don't be next to him while he lands because, when he will touch the ground, two little stars will pop up from each side to cover his landing. You can shield and punish or jump and throw an aerial.
If your shield got hit very recently, be aware that your shield is in danger because of his down b, as long as it's below 80-90~% of the full shield length, it will break it.
So space him out until your shield is fully replenished and avoid situations where you'd be both shielding in front of each other, you're risking your shield.
The egg throw (up b)
-That's a really good projectile but has a huuuuuge amount of cooldown. When yoshi throw an egg he's vulnerable for 55 frames (faf). The egg itself only does 1 damage but the explosion deals 5. It can be aimed at many directions, even upward. Even behind if he up b reverse it, it's often used in neutral while jumping because while he suffers from the lag of the move, he can still drift back or in with his tremendous air speed, it can lead into combo as well, if you're on a platform and you get hit by his egg, watch out for an incoming up air or even down air if he's close enough or to catch your airdodge.
It's good to notice that this move can beat Ryu/Ken's focus attack.
There's also no true combo that can be followed if Yoshi is on the ground while throwing the egg.
Also he will hit you often with an egg and expect you to jump after so he might sometime throw an egg upward after hitting you once first on the ground, we don't always do that but it can work. In smash 4, it was easier to approach with an egg since it didn't give you enough height while combined with a short hop, but now it does, so approaching with an egg is a bit harder but still doable. If he tries to hit you with it and you're trying to land, don't airdodge or you'll get an up air as punishment, if you can, try to go all the way back to the ledge quickly or hit yoshi if you can
Parrying the egg throw put Yoshi in a very bad spot since it has 55 frames of lag and you avoid getting pushed. Try to go for that since reacting to it is not that hard.
Jab
-Frame 3, when you get jabbed on your shield. Wait for his jab 2 then react very quickly to punish because jab 2 end pretty quickly, if not, he can jab 1 into down b (as mix up if you're shielding for too long or just jab 1 and retreat. If jab 2 hits you, you'll be at a good angle to receive an egg in the face or even a fair which you can react with an aerial or airdodge.
If you get hit by jab 2 and he runs at you and shield, he's just waiting for you to throw an aerial or miss a tech, go to the ledge if you can for max safety but it's not necessary.
Tilt attack
Down tilt
-Down tilt is a long range quick move that is mostly used in two scenarios, the main one is to set up a tech chase situation, the second one is to setup an edgueguard situation. If you're thrown offstage by that move you're in a good spot to get Fair(ed) or even fast fall double jump Nair or the easiest and safest move would be an egg throw. If you think that you'll get edgueguarded, throw an aerial before he hit you because he could spike you, if you're getting tech chased, you're better not missing that tech, if you did then down b is guaranteed or more safe would be dash attack or even read an option into any move
Forward tilt
-Forward tilt can be a combo starter at low percent, it also can be angled but it doesn't change much, it will lead to a free up air at low to mid percent. Not much else to say about it.
Up tilt
-Up tilt lead to a kill confirm with up air at a good range of percent, the only downside is that the move comes out from behind and also has a very small hitbox in front of Yoshi, in front it is not going to hit low profile character and it has to be used while backing their opponent for the optimal up air confirm and also to actually hit something. Otherwise it is a great anti air move.
Smash attack
Up smash
-Up smash is a very powerful kill move that comes out pretty fast with a huge hitbox that even cover behind him slightly due to his feet going so far. The optimal way to di this move is down and away. Not just down. It's very similar to fox's up smash but with less power and the same animation
Forward smash
-Forward smash can be angled and 2 frame people, it kills early and has a disjointed hitbox. Combined with the speed and power this move can very well be the end of your stock if you're not careful. Often used to punish a bad landing by running away and using it with max spacing
Down smash
-Down smash is his quickest smash attack, can be used to punish quickly or cover a roll or ledge option
Aerials
Down air
-Down air break shields, does a lot of damage and has 13 hits, every hit is a spike but the last one that send you upward, perfect for a juggle, we often use it when you're on a platform of when we want to cover your approach
Back air
-Back air can kill now. Landing with back air 1 is a kill confirm into up smash or up air at higher percent, if you see yoshi not facing you in neutral, he might try to go for it.
Up air
-Up air, it can ladder combo, combo into itself at a lot of percent, kill pretty early and at the top it will just demolish you, often used after frame trapping you in the air with an egg throw. Landing an up air is very rewarding. It juggles a lot too. It's very annoying to deal with but just jump away or use your quickest aerial after di(ing) up or away to mess up his timing
Nair
-Nair, arguably the best nair in the game, also its frame 3 just like his jab. (or one of the best, it's literally broken) I'm not gonna explain why it's broken. It's used in many occasions, watch out for it but you can punish a nair landing with an out of shield option or just hit him before he lands it will lead into combo if the sourspot has landed, it will also be used to get out of many combos, it can gimp after throwing an egg to bait an airdodge, you'd rather get hit by the egg than getting baited, yoshi will throw out a lot of Nair when they feel pressured
Fair
-Fair, big disjointed hitbox, can spike easy, similar to Mario's fair but bigger and arguably better, can kill even without spike and if you get fair spiked on the ground, it's a guaranteed up air since you can't tech it anymore. Can be autocancelled with a short hop and often used while retreating because it makes the move more safe.
Be aware of this during a match :
When you're at low percent :
-Don't let yoshi land an up air on the ground or you'll get comboed hard
- down throw to up air can actually work at 0 but not against everyone.
-Be aware of his up throw tech chase set up on the top platform of bf
-Yoshi will be looking to do a combo and end with a juggle when the situation is in his favor.
-If yoshi land a fair at very low percent you actually can punish him since you won't get pushed a lot
-If you get hit by a fair offstage with no spike you might get hit again with a nair or even footstool into a nair if you're at low percent. Don't waste your jump and recover low.
-Down throw is not a combo throw but can lead into one if you don't react. Di away and jump.
When you're at mid percent ~40-70 :
-This is roughly where the back throw and forward throw tech chase works on bf (not exactly 40-70 but around there), make sure to tech and tech away if you can or just don't be predictable.
Down tilt is now usable for tech chases as well.
When you're at higher percent 70-100
At 80, an fsmash near the ledge could potentially kill, you're one or two combo away from death.
Avoid at all cost getting juggled, don't challenge his up air if he's at low percent because he can use an up air and literally ignore your attack with his armor on his double jump and you'll loose the trade no matter how long your sword is. This is a good percent to get hit by an egg and bait your airdodge. Just move away from the eggs.
Fair spike on the ground into down b is a thing but it's more reliable to just follow with an up air and it's also a real kill confirm.
At kill percent :
-Every single aerial can kill, landing back air can true combo into up smash or an other back air or up air.
-Fair with no spike can kill as well pretty reliably, with the spike effect on the ground it can lead into an up air confirm. If you're on a platform on top of yoshi try to not mess around too much or an up air will end the stock, if you shield he will just down air. So move away from there. At this point you want to wall him out and avoid getting chased. Don't hold your shield in front of him or you'll loose the fight if he has a better reaction time than you and in this kind of scenario you're more likely to loose. Up tilt into up air is a reliable kill confirm but will stop working at higher percent. Works better with the backward hitbox
-End of part 1-
part 2 is already completed i just want to see some review of part 1 before posting it
