- Game Versions
- Smash 3DS, Smash Wii U
NOTE: If this is the incorrect spot for a topic like this, please let me know. I just haven't seen anyone really cover this, and it's something I was able to discover and work out on my own, but was unable to explain due to lack of information, so I thought I might as well show it off.
Move name is a work in progress, but I thought it was rather fitting considering exactly what this combo does.
So at first glance this isn't really all that special. The combo is quite simply Arcthunder -> Levin Sword Dair (Meteor Hitbox). Wooptie do right? Not like every other Robin on the planet can do that.
But I'm talking about something much stranger, and something I have yet to fully explain. If you manage to land the LSDair while they are still being hit by Arcthunder, AND, your opponent is under a specific, character based percent, instead of being meteored traditionally, your victim will instead be launched horizontally.
Examples (sorry about the crappy quality):
https://youtu.be/fNyJ2trtYhE?t=55s
Pretty cool huh? Additionally, the closer your opponent is to the maximum possible percent this works at for their character, the more horizontally they will be launched, until they reach what is essentially a semi-spike trajectory, but will all the velocity of a meteor smash. This makes the combo difficult, if not impossible to actually recover from for most characters at decent percents.
Here is a list of the last possible percent I was able to get it to work for each character by order of Char Weight:
So essentially it follows the trend of Char Weight fairly well, but Fast Fallers are the odd ones out for this list. And that helped me figure out a theory as to exactly why this works.
Note: This is about to get technical. I tried to explain it with examples and using as much Layman terms as possible, but it still might be confusing to some. Additionally, I'm still not entirely convinced that this is the reason why this combo works, but it was the only way I was able to explain it. If you know why, please share it and correct me, because I really do want to definitively figure it out.
Personally I thought "the scale tipper" was a fitting name because it literally "tips" the direction you should be getting lauched into some cheese angle. Thoughts?
Move name is a work in progress, but I thought it was rather fitting considering exactly what this combo does.
So at first glance this isn't really all that special. The combo is quite simply Arcthunder -> Levin Sword Dair (Meteor Hitbox). Wooptie do right? Not like every other Robin on the planet can do that.
But I'm talking about something much stranger, and something I have yet to fully explain. If you manage to land the LSDair while they are still being hit by Arcthunder, AND, your opponent is under a specific, character based percent, instead of being meteored traditionally, your victim will instead be launched horizontally.
Examples (sorry about the crappy quality):
https://youtu.be/fNyJ2trtYhE?t=55s
Pretty cool huh? Additionally, the closer your opponent is to the maximum possible percent this works at for their character, the more horizontally they will be launched, until they reach what is essentially a semi-spike trajectory, but will all the velocity of a meteor smash. This makes the combo difficult, if not impossible to actually recover from for most characters at decent percents.
Here is a list of the last possible percent I was able to get it to work for each character by order of Char Weight:
SUPERHEAVY
1) Bowser --- 107%
2) Donkey Kong --- 96%
3) DeDeDe --- 95%
4) Charizard --- 99%
5) Ganondorf --- 97%
HEAVY
6) Bowser Jr. --- 85%
7) Samus --- 86%
8) Ike --- 89%
9) Wario --- 89%
10) R.O.B. --- 88%
11) C. Falcon --- 94%
12) Link --- 88%
13) Yoshi --- 85%
14) Ryu --- 94%
15) Shulk --- 85%
16) Megaman --- 90%
17) Mii Sword --- 86%
18) Mii Fight --- 87%
19) Mii Gun --- 84%
20) Cloud --- 87%
21) Lucario --- 83%
MIDDLE
22) Mario --- 83%
23) Dr. Mario --- 83%
24) Villager --- 80%
25) Luigi --- 79%
26) Wii Fit --- 82%
27) Pit --- 80%
28) Dark Pit --- 80%
29) Robin --- 82%
30) Sonic --- 81%
31) Roy --- 87%
32) Pac-man --- 78%
33) Greninja --- 102%
34) Ness --- 78%
35) Lucas --- 81%
36) Toon Link --- 78%
37) Diddy Kong --- 84%
38) Palutena --- 83%
39) Duck Hunt --- 76%
40) Marth --- 75%
41) Lucina --- 75%
42) Peach --- 73%
FEATHER
43) Zelda --- 72%
44) Sheik --- 89%
45) Falco --- 83%
46) Little Mac --- 72%
47) ZSS --- 80%
48) Meta Knight --- 77%
49) Fox --- 94%
50) Pikachu --- 73%
51) Olimar --- 68%
52) Rosalina --- 70%
53) Kirby --- 67%
54) G&W --- 68%
BALLOON
55) Mewtwo --- 67%
56) Jigglypuff --- 59%
1) Bowser --- 107%
2) Donkey Kong --- 96%
3) DeDeDe --- 95%
4) Charizard --- 99%
5) Ganondorf --- 97%
HEAVY
6) Bowser Jr. --- 85%
7) Samus --- 86%
8) Ike --- 89%
9) Wario --- 89%
10) R.O.B. --- 88%
11) C. Falcon --- 94%
12) Link --- 88%
13) Yoshi --- 85%
14) Ryu --- 94%
15) Shulk --- 85%
16) Megaman --- 90%
17) Mii Sword --- 86%
18) Mii Fight --- 87%
19) Mii Gun --- 84%
20) Cloud --- 87%
21) Lucario --- 83%
MIDDLE
22) Mario --- 83%
23) Dr. Mario --- 83%
24) Villager --- 80%
25) Luigi --- 79%
26) Wii Fit --- 82%
27) Pit --- 80%
28) Dark Pit --- 80%
29) Robin --- 82%
30) Sonic --- 81%
31) Roy --- 87%
32) Pac-man --- 78%
33) Greninja --- 102%
34) Ness --- 78%
35) Lucas --- 81%
36) Toon Link --- 78%
37) Diddy Kong --- 84%
38) Palutena --- 83%
39) Duck Hunt --- 76%
40) Marth --- 75%
41) Lucina --- 75%
42) Peach --- 73%
FEATHER
43) Zelda --- 72%
44) Sheik --- 89%
45) Falco --- 83%
46) Little Mac --- 72%
47) ZSS --- 80%
48) Meta Knight --- 77%
49) Fox --- 94%
50) Pikachu --- 73%
51) Olimar --- 68%
52) Rosalina --- 70%
53) Kirby --- 67%
54) G&W --- 68%
BALLOON
55) Mewtwo --- 67%
56) Jigglypuff --- 59%
So essentially it follows the trend of Char Weight fairly well, but Fast Fallers are the odd ones out for this list. And that helped me figure out a theory as to exactly why this works.
Note: This is about to get technical. I tried to explain it with examples and using as much Layman terms as possible, but it still might be confusing to some. Additionally, I'm still not entirely convinced that this is the reason why this combo works, but it was the only way I was able to explain it. If you know why, please share it and correct me, because I really do want to definitively figure it out.
Through some research I found out that while Knockback Merging no longer exists in Smash 4 and Brawl, Knockback Stacking is still present. This is essentially the formula that tells the game what to do when an opponent that is already in knockback from an attack is struck once again with a new angle and power. To make this much simpler, Brawl and Smash 4 completely removed Melee's incredibly confusing system and made it quite simple: The angle of the Stronger of the 2 attacks is kept. However the Magnitude of the Knockback becomes the Resultant of the 2 Knockback Vectors. For example, if you get hit with Captain Falcon's Knee Smash in teams, but then immediately afterwards you a Knee'd in the opposite direction by the other Falcon, physics says that you should stop dead, or at least not move very far. Since that's dumb and **** physics, Smash 4 simply adds the 2 magnitudes, averages it out, and moves in the direction of the stronger Knockback. Since the Knee has the same BKB and KBG as...the knee...(duh?), the victim is obviously at a higher percent when hit by the 2nd knee, and thus will fy in the direction of the 2nd knee.
How does this apply to Robin and this madness? Well the answer is quite simple, and it has to do with the properties of Arcthunder. If you look at Robin's frame data, you will notice that Arcthunder has 3 main hit types. The first hit, then 6 linking hits, then a 7th launching hit. Something else you may notice, is that those 6 linking hits all hit with the infamous angle of 366 degrees. That sounds rediculous, but in smash games every angle above 360 degrees is actually a specialized variable knockback angle. In particular, angles 365, 366, and 367 are all called autolink angles. Essentially, they are angles designed to knock the victim in the angle of which the attacker or projectile is currently moving. This makes sense. Arcthunder's first hit sends opponent's backwards slightly, so these autolink hitboxes force Arcthunder to keep the opponent locked at the back half of the attack, and without the ability to SDI out of it.
And this is where the madness comes in. When you strike your opponent with LSDair during these middle hits, the game has to calculate Knockback Stacking. However, since LSDair is not only a Meteor Smash, but also an Electric Attack, it gains more Freeze Frames than average moves. Which gives just enough time for all of Arcthunder's hits to connect while the game is still trying to factor in LSDair (knockback is not formally calculated and submitted until hitlag is over, which is a long ass time with electric attacks. Just look at the Knee).
So what I believe is happening is that the last hit and middle hits of arcthunder are technically the same move, so even though LSDair should have more knockback than the middle hits, the final hit is the kicker. Essentially, the final hit of arcthunder, at whatever percent they are at after you connect LSDair is stronger than LSDair at whatever percent you actually connected it. This is a bit hard to explain, but it's a similar situation to the Double Knee example from before. The final hit of Arcthunder comes out after or at the same time as LSDair, which means the percent from LSDair has already been added to the opponent. If the Final Hit of Arcthunder would deal more Knockback than LSDair at the percent that LSDair adds, then the angle will be determined by the angle of arcthunder when LSDair landed. That angle is 366%. Which means your opponent is meteor smashed in the direction the attacker is traveling, in his case completely horizontally. The percent at which this tech stops working is therefore the percent at which LSDair beats the last hit of Arcthunder in terms of knockback at that given percent, due to it's much better scaling and damage values.
Additionally, Arcthunder's looping hits use weight based knock back, which explains why this works to higher percents of fastfallers. Any questions? I can elaborate on specifics as you please if you want to know more
How does this apply to Robin and this madness? Well the answer is quite simple, and it has to do with the properties of Arcthunder. If you look at Robin's frame data, you will notice that Arcthunder has 3 main hit types. The first hit, then 6 linking hits, then a 7th launching hit. Something else you may notice, is that those 6 linking hits all hit with the infamous angle of 366 degrees. That sounds rediculous, but in smash games every angle above 360 degrees is actually a specialized variable knockback angle. In particular, angles 365, 366, and 367 are all called autolink angles. Essentially, they are angles designed to knock the victim in the angle of which the attacker or projectile is currently moving. This makes sense. Arcthunder's first hit sends opponent's backwards slightly, so these autolink hitboxes force Arcthunder to keep the opponent locked at the back half of the attack, and without the ability to SDI out of it.
And this is where the madness comes in. When you strike your opponent with LSDair during these middle hits, the game has to calculate Knockback Stacking. However, since LSDair is not only a Meteor Smash, but also an Electric Attack, it gains more Freeze Frames than average moves. Which gives just enough time for all of Arcthunder's hits to connect while the game is still trying to factor in LSDair (knockback is not formally calculated and submitted until hitlag is over, which is a long ass time with electric attacks. Just look at the Knee).
So what I believe is happening is that the last hit and middle hits of arcthunder are technically the same move, so even though LSDair should have more knockback than the middle hits, the final hit is the kicker. Essentially, the final hit of arcthunder, at whatever percent they are at after you connect LSDair is stronger than LSDair at whatever percent you actually connected it. This is a bit hard to explain, but it's a similar situation to the Double Knee example from before. The final hit of Arcthunder comes out after or at the same time as LSDair, which means the percent from LSDair has already been added to the opponent. If the Final Hit of Arcthunder would deal more Knockback than LSDair at the percent that LSDair adds, then the angle will be determined by the angle of arcthunder when LSDair landed. That angle is 366%. Which means your opponent is meteor smashed in the direction the attacker is traveling, in his case completely horizontally. The percent at which this tech stops working is therefore the percent at which LSDair beats the last hit of Arcthunder in terms of knockback at that given percent, due to it's much better scaling and damage values.
Additionally, Arcthunder's looping hits use weight based knock back, which explains why this works to higher percents of fastfallers. Any questions? I can elaborate on specifics as you please if you want to know more
Personally I thought "the scale tipper" was a fitting name because it literally "tips" the direction you should be getting lauched into some cheese angle. Thoughts?
Especially against fast fallers this can be killer for gimps. Even if they are playing Sheik and can recover from literally anywhere, it puts them in a pretty bad spot where they have to use every tool in their kit just to make it back to the stage. And that makes it easy to edgeguard.