~ Wolf's Match-Up's ~

[Turbo Ether]

meh id spend money to go to west coast,not east,some top texas p[layers are going though so after they place wherever ill look into it..

hard proof or shove it

Dumb, top players from all notable North American regions(including Texas) will be at CoT4. You want hardproof, come get it, theorycraft on boards only gets you so far, so I will not engage in it. SNAKE MATCHUPS THREAD INDICATES THAT SNAKE LOSES TO DDD 35/65 FOR CRYING OUT LOUD LOL. Believe what you want, you're not gonna get hardproof on message boards.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Could you please stop debating about regions here? It's a well established fact that AN is the strongest region. All the best players are from that region.

If you wanna debate this please do so via PM. In this thread we only care about the match-up.

 

[kailo34ce]

show me 5 matches that prove you right.because so far youve said nothing but "its even"

and AN doesnt travel so it really cant be established

players on west coast havent been tested by east coast so you cant even really say that.just talk

hard proof or shove it.

 

[Sean²]

Who gives a sh*t

There is an entire forum for regional zones.

If you want to debate the Wolf/Snake match up further, by all means do it. Grab a few Snake players who agree with you and get them to post here.

 

[:034:]

America has a 70:30 regional match-up advantage to itself

Now shut up about your regions >_>

 

[kailo34ce]

wtf smashboards started like 6 years ago so regions could talk trash...so why not do it?

hard proof or shove it

 

[:034:]

this is a match-up thread, we have regional zones? >_> If you wanna bicker about players, go there. If you still wanna bicker 'bout Wolf vs Snake, here's the place

 

[kailo34ce]

fair enough

snake vs wolf is 35-65

ive proved that to people in my region by matchup results etc.

prove its 50-50

hard proof or shove it

 

[Sean²]

You're still just pulling these facts out of your *** as far as I can tell. How do we know you don't just suck at the match up?

You're demanding hard facts from us, when you're still going at this by yourself...making your argument seem extremely opinionated. Seriously, get some people who agree with you, preferably those who are familiar with the match-up, to post here if you want it to work.

 

[:034:]

fair enough

snake vs wolf is 35-65

ive proved that to people in my region by matchup results etc.

prove its 50-50

hard proof or shove it

K

Snake's recovery is easily interruptible, especially when they come from below (dumb). You can always bair them out of it, or go for a risky spike. They can let go and air dodge but this'll only happen if they're sure they'll make it to the stage... see to it that they don't. dthrow sets up for a spike because of Snake's poor recovery options.

Using bairs range to the fullest (ie: disjoint) you can go over some of Snake's crazy hitboxes. Also reflector. Snake has projectiles? Reflector...

Getting Snake in the air will always put you an advantage, use uair, usmash (or even the boost smash).

Both characters have their own exploitable weaknesses and strengths, abuse your opponent's weaknesses, watch your spacing and keep your head cooled down.

 

[kailo34ce]

dude ...i dont want to hear that crap wolf is D tier snake is a GOD

itd be way easier for snake to take the advantage

HARD PROOF or shove it ...physical evidence.not you saying a bunch of hypothetical bull.

**** dude

vids or shove it

 

[:034:]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX1mMnWw0Ow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziQqwKrl1Tg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNd6ciPDmGQ

If you say "these guys go up against each other evenly, they bring each other to the last stock with high percent..", then I'd say look at the current matchup number again.

 

[kailo34ce]

two people playing eachother doesnt prove a matchup now does it?

nope.

get some actual evidence

hard proof or shove it

 

[:034:]

wtf? now you're just pulling my leg for the fuck of it.

 

[kailo34ce]

no i mean show me 5 matches of a snake vs wolf then 5 other people then them switching characters to like another matchups while one stays.eliminate the variables.i see neither of those guys trying.or they just both suck

 

[chronoize]

i say the match is 55:35, or 60:40 at most in snakes favor. just due to the fact that he has his tilts and stage control. dutchman i don't believe those are good examples to reevaluate the match up, those matches are extremely old, and i believe both char play style and meta game has evolved a lot since March and April of last year

 

[Ishiey]

Those vids were from 9 months ago... For me, it's about even, but I've never played any good snakes. I don't want to get into this argument ._. but really, it's okay to have opinions, just don't argue to the death.

 

[ArcPoint]

Tier lists are a testament to how well people do overall, not against one individual character. I would just like to point that out. Isn't Yoshi said to have like a somewhat even matchup against MK? If kailo is right by saying "MK is God tier while Yoshi is low tier, that must AUTOMATICALLY mean that Yoshi has an absolutely horrible (70-30, 80-20) against MK!"

 

[kailo34ce]

anyone who thinks yoshi beats a character who outclasses him greatly in every way,just beacause of a weak chaingrab..is quite ignorant..

and thats what im saying every "advantage" wolf has on snake,snake can do it better..*******es

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Lol wtf is your problem. While I do agree that snake may have a slight advantage on wolf I strongly disagree on why you think this. You think that just because someone is low tier it means they automatically lose to high tiers. And no snake cannot do everything wolf can do better.

Get some hard proof on why snake >>>> wolf or shove it.

 

[kailo34ce]

and thats what im saying every "advantage" wolf has on snake,snake can do it better..*******es

snake ***** wolf in every way period.therefor they cant have an even matchup

 

[Sesshomuronay]

How does he **** wolf in every way?

 

[Turbo Ether]

This guy is still trolling the thread? Lol, ok.

 

[kailo34ce]

hes faster stronger better recovery better map controller better camper and lives longer...

wolf...jumps faster.....yup.....

as for me "trolling" i know the phrase has gotten popular recently so its only a little annoying youd say that..the simple fact is that im tired of the wolf boards being one of the worst boards on this site.
makes me disown wolf and go to peach where at least the peach mains are proud...

lol **** you wolf *******es...the worst part is im better tsk tsk..ill peace out now..no sense stooping to the level of a wolf player

 

[Turbo Ether]

Good riddance. You're supposedly 18 and type and debate like a complete tard, nice job, buddy. You can't construct a coherent sentence or an argument worth a d*mn, why are you even here? You constantly namedrop known players, like that's supposed to impress somebody. Personally, I was indifferent towards people insisting on constantly making fun of Texas and its meta-game, but I have to say, you're an incredibly horrible representative of the Texas community. Seriously, grow up.

 

[kailo34ce]

why you gotta talk so much trash after i say goodbye :3

insults suit you better than me tbh

also hypocracy..try not to stoop to my level if ur gonna argue..makes you look weak

also get better lol...

also azen lost to dmg in tournament lol

also im a better player than you

also i dont want to grow up..it isnt cute..

also im still better than you

also i dont namedrop constantly..i constantly play good players

also my birthday is soon :3

also im right about everything and just because the bulk of wolfs players (people im ashamed to be part of) disagree..doesnt make them right..you just conform

also ive been here longer so shush

also if i wanted to impress you smelly people id post vids

also bein coherent isnt fun

also i like the word tard lol

also indifference is just a lack of opinion which you cant come up with your own apparently..like the matchup

also im rubber ur glue :3

also im sorry i wasted my time today like you people do EVERY day

**** it feels good to be better though..

bouncies*

 

[Turbo Ether]

Whatever helps you sleep better at night, son. Please visit my region someday so you can get rocked and have that unnecessarily large ego deflated quickly.

 

[AssaultX]

Lol what's this troll doing here o_O

About the Marth match-up, d-tilt might be a viable tool for us. It's a 5-frame move, which is faster than all of Marth's ground A moves except jab. So I guess this means you can use it to out-speed Marth on the ground. There's also the low % trip; you can follow it up with a few things.

I'm not very good at figuring out match-ups, so I might be wrong on a few things.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I agree with the stuff kailo says to some extent. But Snake vs wolf definately isnt hugely in snakes favor. I think its around 55-45 or 60-40 in snakes favor.

And you have a huge *** ego kailo I mean wow your just like:

I play pros so I know more than you n00bz.
Lol just because multiple people are arguing against me it still means im right n00bz.
Im better than people I have never even met because I said so!


I mean you have a huuuuuuge ego and im assuming your just some scrub who likes to troll. I mean wow in that post you made you claim to be a lot of things which are probably false and you dont even have anything to back your claims up with except your ego which is big. Get outta the wolf boards if you dont like it.


And I dont think D-tilt really changes the marth matchup much. Speed isnt as important as spacing against him.

 

[ArcPoint]

One thing I think Wolf has over Snake is that he can play safer. Wolf can simply keep spamming safe attacks, while Snake cannot. Ftilt is by no means safe on block, nor is Utilt. Nor is Dtilt. Jab is questionable, Snake's jab is simply amazing, that's really more of a mixup thing. If you predict Ftilt then you can keep shielding, if you predict a grab then you can spotdodge. Or roll behind him, yeah whatever. Wolf can continue to Bair and Fair even if Snake decides he wants to have a grenade by his shield.

Another thing, Snake is at a SERIOUS disadvantage when he's in the air, simply because his aerial mobility is not as prominent as other characters', and his aerial options are extremely limited. If you seem him double jump Nair, all you have to do is run up and shield, free grab which can put him in a bad spot. B-reversals are really the only thing he's got going for him in the air, even those can be countered. I mean, yeah, Snake can get juggled really easily. Wolf quite easily beats Snake in the air, his Bair clashes with Nair, and his Fair outprioritizes his Nair. Snake is also really bad on the ledge (Which Dthrow puts him into at higher percentages, which Snake can either up B which puts him the air, or at the ledge) because if he jumps then he's in a bad spot, if he rolls or does something on the ground (Attack or roll) then he can be easily punished for that, and releasing, double jumping then airdodging is a free grab which puts him in the exact same scenario >_>

I don't think I mentioned this... but yeah, Wolf's Fair is an extremely safe move, and it puts Snake in that lovely position of above Wolf. I'll tell you that it isn't a horrible matchup.

And don't Bash Kailo, he seems to have some sort of credibility. We as a Wolf community SHOULD be able to provide evidence that our matchup is correct, after all it is OUR statement that said matchup is even, so he's questioning it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. His wording isn't exactly nice, but whatever

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Yea I guess so. I dont even think its even tho. Wolf has juggling and better aerials and can punish snake. Plus B-air has a massive range which outranges a lot of snakes stuff.

I think snake has a slight advantage tho because of weight like 55/45.

 

[kailo34ce]

and his Fair outprioritizes his Nair. Snake is also really bad on the ledge

I don't think I mentioned this... but yeah, Wolf's Fair is an extremely safe move, and it puts Snake in that lovely position of above Wolf.
And don't Bash Kailo, he seems to have some sort of credibility. We as a Wolf community SHOULD be able to provide evidence that our matchup is correct, after all it is OUR statement that said matchup is even, so he's questioning it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. His wording isn't exactly nice, but whatever

a good snake wont allow a single strike character to hit him in the air..wolfs best means for attack is nair because of grenade b reversal or just an air dodge,but snakes nair beats it.

wolf on the ledge is the sole reason this match his so horrible..ive seen top wolfs and me being walled by ONE grenade a usmash and a snake standing there..wolf has RIDICULOUSLY mitied options from the ledge,so i believe again for this advantage snake has the same advantage except better

fair is safe..but imo snakedash is easier to hit "especially because it cant be done during laser opening lag,and its safer..put wolf in the same position as wolf doing fair..and snake is much better below you than you are below snake.usmash and tilts and ck on the ground can force an air dodge or risk death at like 120 ish....so for the third time..you got it

no im not nice..or polite..am i rude in real life? no..but if you are rude on the baords its the easuest way to get attention..its all a method of speech

 

[ArcPoint]

Yeah, you got me there, Wolf is terrible vs Snake on the ledge. I have the same problem against a local Snake player. The motion-sensor mines make it even worse in addition to grenades and Usmash >_<

The Mortar slide may be easier to hit with, however Wolf has considerably more options when he's in the air against Snake, for one he is able to move considerably farther than Snake in the air. He also has auto canceled aerials, unlike Snake. And he also has an alternative to an airdodge, so if Snake was planning to get an Ftilt on Wolf during the 3 frames ish of landing lag, then shine will beat it out. Not to mention that Snake has the added delay of waiting for the mortar to finish, so it gives Snake a little less time to chase. And when Wolf is in the air and Snake Usmashes Wolf can just use the reflector and the mortar will now hit Snake. ...And what's CK on the ground o.O

Snake does beat Wolf on the ledge, however it's when Snake is in the air versus when Wolf is in the air that Wolf has the advantage. Snake definitely has a few tricks up his sleeve, but it doesn't give him the advantage in the air.

Also:

a good snake wont allow a single strike character to hit him in the air..wolfs best means for attack is nair because of grenade b reversal or just an air dodge,but snakes nair beats it.

Could you please elaborate on this? I was a little confused. What I got out of it is: Only Multi-hitting attacks are good against Snake due to B reversals, so, you're only approaching option Nair, which Snake's Nair beats (Or ftilt lol) or airdodging, which Snake's Nair also beats.

I get the feeling I'm interpreting that wrong... so yeah.

 

[kailo34ce]

you have the right interpreting ..as for an air battle..snake can just get to the ground period

thats why he has horrible airials and is still god tier..you dont manipulate a godo snake like that,no matter how good you are

think about it ..if you go even with a snake who do you think is trying harder?.the wolf

snake gets easy setups and yes in theory if he gets you in the air you can shine..you dont think he knows that?


what ive been trying to explain this whole time is you guys are only looking at snakes weaknesses and wolfs strengths..

you must understand all your weaknesses and all snakes strengths

then you will know the fear of the matter

 

[ArcPoint]

Got a point, the bastard does a ton of damage with Ftilt and stuff. Oh and in case anyone didn't know, Utilt can punish semi-retreated Fairs. What a pain D=

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Sorry for the off-topic post, but on the orriginal post (first post), it says Falco vs Wolf is 55:45 in favour of Falco. Is that a mistake or is that what you guys determined? I wasn't following the discussions, so I don't know if that is what you guys determined.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sorry for the off-topic post, but on the orriginal post (first post), it says Falco vs Wolf is 55:45 in favour of Falco. Is that a mistake or is that what you guys determined? I wasn't following the discussions, so I don't know if that is what you guys determined.

We changed that recently. It turned out that Wolf (and other characters) can survive Chainspikes by teching. Falco still has the advantage over Wolf but it's not that bad anymore. Falco is tough but still managable for Wolf.


@kailo

I do get your point but:

1.) I'd like to hear more match-up specific stuff from you. I mean it's obvious that Snake is a better character but that doesn't necesarily give him the advantage. Olimar has better KO power, better grabs, same range, deals a lot more damage and is smaller than Wolf but Wolf still has the advantage over Olimar. Do you get my point? Wolf still has quite a bunch of things gong for him in this match-up and I'd like you to adress some of my points:

- How does Snake punish a well ranged SHFF Bair? Grenades don't hit him and only the 2nd hit of ftilt / 3rd hit of jabs will hit him. Both can be Powershielded
- How can Snake prevent losing a stock when Wolf dthrows him down the ledge?
- How does Snake get around a juggle trap? Wolf uair beats Snake's dair and if he airdodges Wolf can punish him with usmash and thus juggle trap him again

That's quite a bunch of things Wolf has and we still haven't consiered the fact that Wolf won't die as easily as most characters do nor the fact that Wolfs mobility is superior and gives some hit+run opportunities

2.) Give me one reason why it's supposed to be 65/35. That number has to be one of the most absurd exaggerations I've ever heard. I could accept 55/45 but 65/35 ... that's basically a hard counter match-up and it's not that bad no matter what you say. Especially since you didn't even mention one of the strenghts Wolf has in this match-up it seems basically like you're ignoring everything Wolf has on Snake.

You say the number is wrong so you have to prove it. All you brought up wasn't match-up specific. OK Snake deals tons of damage and KOs extremely well and has amazing camping we know that. But the way you write it looks like you don't even want to see the things Wolf has on Snake. It honestly looks like you ignore any reasonable input and come up with "but Snake is top and Wolf isn't". OK...so what? Wolf has tools to deal with Snake and as long as you don't prove that Snake has so much going for him that it's a freaking hard-coountermatch-up I can't really take that serious. My job is to habe a mtach-up thread that's as accurate as possible. If you really want the number to change you have to prove that it's 65/35 and convince the Wolf community that it's such a bad match-up.

...

Btw don't mention all the things Snake has going for him. Just how they apply to the match-up and prove that Wolf has no options to deal with these things. I have plenty of tourney experience with Snake so you don't need to say that Snake can set up KO moves very well. I know that. Adress our points ... the one in the OP (summary) and my post as well as teh_spamerer's quote (you only said "it's ignorant" but never mentioned any reasons whatsoever)...

 

[kailo34ce]

>.> they are beginning to understand...ill write out the thing when i have more patience..im impatient..

i dont think 65-35 is a counter.alot of wolfs matches should be about that. pikachu falco sheik diddy rob kirby should all be that imo...

with ddd 85-15 mk 70-30 marth and gaw 55-45 i do think he has 60-40 over olimar and lucario and pit is 45-55 slight pit advantage

im dont have the time to write it all out but i definately will soon..i have reasoning for everything

you guysgive wolf too much credit..

hes like one the least played character for a reason(ive never played online so i dont know or care how that goes)

 

[BIGM1994]

Did u make this up?well i dont beleve it at all,wolf does not have an advantage over toonlink and definetly not over zelda or lucas

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Kailo....I'd really like to see your wolf just for once... when I see these numbers ... omfg